The Scriptures and Authority

[GorrionGris]

So that the RC would have some folks to keep it in check. Much better now than in the middle ages, don't you think?

Well GT would be boring... or not... we will find something else to debate on

 

[ticker]

Hi Markea

It's not as though the scriptures are like ANY written word.. they're the word of God.. and the Lord Himself says that His words are spirit and they are life..

The testimonies over the centuries affirm this very thing.. ie, Thy word is a lamp unto my feet.. and a light unto my path.. and ..the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So it's not like ANY book.. It's the testimony of God concerning His Son... ie.. in the volume of the book it is written of Me..

Sorry...I meant any written word "of His".

Also, I think I'm starting to see more of what you're talking about.....the word itself is God. Regardless of how we interpret it, it still is what it is...God. Right?

Why would you suggest this.. God dwells within His people.. and He is the very center of our life.. He is our life, because we are not our own.. we are bought with a price.. Paul would write it this way in Colossians..

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.

Thanks for correcting me then.

Do you have some examples of speaking on God's authority apart from His word..?

I'm just talking about God influencing our words, thoughts, actions...and it could be any old thing that was said on any old day. This could come in the form of someone telling the checkout lady at the supermarket that she does her job very well (something she might have really needed to hear)...or it could be praying over someone on a hospital bed. It's not always known when (...and what you were getting at...if) someone is speaking God's authority...but it most certainly happens.

Absolutely.. but don't forget that the scriptures are a more sure word of prophecy.. more sure than hearing God's voice audibly..

Wasn't really talking about hearing God audibly...but again, about what I wrote above...His influencing our words, thoughts, and actions.

Scriptures are indeed a sure word of prophecy, yes...but only if you're relying on the spirit for "revelation", as opposed to man for "explanation".

Things is, living out our day to day Christian lives isn't done by remembering to glance at our "What Would Jesus Do" bracelets, or making sure we look at the Bible for "instructions" before we leave the house each morning. It's this kind of general thinking I get concerend about, when people put too much focus on the Bible or on direct "instruction" and "imitation". We're meant to live in complete dependance and trust in the Spirit to be our strength, wisdom, and righteousness in our day to day goings on. Anything else just won't cut it. And living by the Spirit indeed makes us seek out the Spirit (in word, in fellowship, in prayer, etc..). I'm afraid many Christians tend to have it backwards though.


Cheers, Markea for your explanations.

 

[Markea]

Hi Markea



Sorry...I meant any written word "of His".

Also, I think I'm starting to see more of what you're talking about.....the word itself is God. Regardless of how we interpret it, it still is what it is...God. Right?


Thanks for correcting me then.




I'm just talking about God influencing our words, thoughts, actions...and it could be any old thing that was said on any old day. This could come in the form of someone telling the checkout lady at the supermarket that she does her job very well (something she might have really needed to hear)...or it could be praying over someone on a hospital bed. It's not always known when (...and what you were getting at...if) someone is speaking God's authority...but it most certainly happens.



Of prophecy yes...and only if you're relying on the spirit for "revelation", as opposed to man for "explanation".

But living out our day to day Christian lives isn't done by remembering to glance at our "What Would Jesus Do" bracelets, or making sure we look at the Bible for "instructions" before we leave the house each morning. It's this kind of general thinking I get concerend about when people put too much focus on the Bible or on "instruction" and "imitation". We're meant to live in complete dependance and trust in the Spirit to be our strength, wisdom, and righteousness in our day to day goings on. Anything else just won't cut it.


Cheers Markea for your explanations

I'm glad that we reached some sort of understanding of what has been said.. and I can't escape the fact that my spiritual food is the word of God which lives and abides for ever.. We're born again by its incorruptible seed, we're washed by it.. our minds are renewed daily by its spiritual sustenance..

It's vital.. but of course without the Spirit of God it's all an exercise in vanity..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Hentenza
So that the RC would have some folks to keep it in check. Much better now than in the middle ages, don't you think?

Well GT would be boring... or not... we will find something else to debate on

There is never a boring moment on the NCR board either, especially with the heathen Muslims.

http://foru.ms/t5615012-jesus-christ-was-he-sent-for-all-mankind.html
-jesus-christ-was-he-sent-for-all-mankind

Hello.We muslims believe he was sent to the sons of Israel not for all mankind.This doesnt mean the one who follows Him in real does a wrong job but this is God's plan for He sent Muhammed-aleyhissalam-to all mankind.Which proofs do christians have to claim that Jesus was sent to entire humanity and not only to the israelites?

 

[StTherese]

No.



Its just the way you asked, SO EXPLAIN rather then, "What are your thoughts on this"?

Why do I have to answer for His words in accordance with the question that came to your mind on them that never entered mine?

You don't HAVE to answer any questions. No one is forcing you...since you said that God gives the inspiration to understand the scriptures, I was just curious as to why you think that God would lead us to believe it says something different?? Your interpretation is one thing, mine is another...maybe not for all of scripture, but enough that causes a separation in the Church. In all the different denominations, they can not all be correct in their doctrines and teachings when they contradict and oppose the teachings of another denomination.

I'll post the verses from where you are springboarding your own questions...

2Titus 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God

True? Yes

But yet you have Martin Luther who took out books of the Bible that he disagreed with and decided to add a few words to it that were not actually there to begin with...talk about confusion....

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

True? Yes

I agree. Still doesn't explain how those who claim to understand the scriptures and who feel their understanding is inspired by God can be so different than another who believes thier understanding was inspired also...yet they contradict one another...

All scripture is given for reproof

Proverbs 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

True? Yes

Given that the scriptures are interpreted correctly.

I dont need to explain them. It appears as if your asking, if God is true please look at men and explain them. What kind of question is that?

Christ instituted the Church who is the pillar and foundation for truth. It is the Church that we should look to for guidance.

Just because 1 million people sit in under "the dominion" of any particular brand of church does not mean all those within it truly agree with that church. Catholics included (coming from a huge family of them) I know this very well. Its a delusion to think otherwise.

I never claimed that all who claim to be of one denomination completely agree with all they teach. I know people who claim to be Catholic who disagree with some of its teachings...but can you really say those people are Catholic? Why would someone claim to be a part of something they stand opposed to? Could I truly be "Pro-Choice" and actually believe that a woman should NOT have a choice as to whether or not to have an abortion?

Ok, seriously now... differences were allowed, off the top of my head there were allowable differences In how one man regarded a holy day or not. What he could eat according to conscience. What you believed about certain things (and kept to yourself) and having ones faith before God. Weaker and stronger brothers and sisters exist together. Those still yet carnal and those who were spiritual. Paul knowing His boundaries couldnt speak in the same mind (in wisdom) to those carnal but as a man. He even said that knowing his limitations but he could walk in love toward them (in that mind) just couldnt speak it lol

Different styles of worship is one thing....different beliefs and teachings about God and His Church is another! Jesus condemns false teachings and those who try to teach something other than that which He taught.

Being AS LORDS over anothers faith? That was something Paul said he was not. My faith rests on Christ alone. I dont claim to know it all nor am I interested in being one. I'm free to "prove all things" and so is everyone else (whether they know it or not).



Im where I am by the grace of God, same as you.

Trying to control anothers desire to prove a thing or is vain and pretending theres no differences "here" (as in my church "where I go") is a lie.

Just because a "Catholic" doesn't agree with a teaching of the RCC doesn't mean that teaching is not true. Christ wants us to be of one mind and one body...to be one as He and the Father are one...
Do you think Jesus believe in sola fide and God the Father that faith and works are necessary? NO. Their teachings are the same and so should be the teachings of His Church in which He left us. Why do you think the RCC is so strict with its teachings and doctrines? Either you are Catholic or you are not...you can not be both. There is but one truth.

Theres all sorts of people, there are those who call upon the Lord with a pure heart and others who preach for profit. There are those who preach Christ (not out of goodwill) but out of strife and envy. There are those who desire to draw others after themselves, and thats their only concern (who is with us). There are those who have but a form of godliness and would trip over the power of it. These (and then some) exist.

Paul made no promises that there will never be false doctrines or teachers did he? Its sorta expected (with me) that there will be.

What did Jesus say about false prophets?

Maybe some are more comfortable with their religion and not really interested (or believe) they are called to laid hold of knowing God? Maybe they were told they needed to be in the right church so when they dead and buried they can "go to heaven" and have no clue eternal life is to be in them and its to know God?

Even though there is some truth in all denominations....there is but ONE truth and One Church (doctines/teachings)......

I would guess men as lords seem to be a part of the problem and the "dum dums" who let their faith stand in the wisdom of men over the power of God (Christ).

Christ Himself instituted a Church and gave them the power to bind and loose and to forgive sins.....man did not ask for this or come up with this on their own....Christ gave it to them, to His Church!!!!

We are called to know HIM (~the Lord of~ the book) not just ~the book of~ the Lord.

To know Truth is to know Christ.

 

[Fireinfolding]

You don't HAVE to answer any questions. No one is forcing you...

It was THE WAY you said it Therese it wasnt asking it was demanding. The SO EXPLAIN verses CAN you? Thats all, its how I read it and sorta got a chuckle out of it.

since you said that God gives the inspiration to understand the scriptures,

The scriptures say that.

I was just curious as to why you think that God would lead us to believe it says something different??

We believe and understand after our measure. We know in part, and we share in part its not a sin to know in part. One can have ALL KNOWLEDGE (thats ALL) but its chucked into the IN PART category. Its the one thinking he knows something who is the one who doesnt know as he ought (ironically).

Your interpretation is one thing, mine is another...maybe not for all of scripture, but enough that causes a separation in the Church.

Some divide on these things Therese, I dont feel the need to on every little difference but thats me. Some feel justified to divide after anothers measure of knowledge which is an "in part" and an imperfect measuring stick. Even Paul says babes were "unskilled" in the word of righteousness having milk whereas meat is in due season and for the full age, so obviously there will be differences in accord with ones spiritual age. Even Paul said, "when I was a child I spake as a child, I understood as a child but he became a man and put away childish things, we are all growing up into the full stature of Christ.

In all the different denominations, they can not all be correct in their doctrines and teachings when they contradict and oppose the teachings of another denomination.

There are workmen that will be ashamed, no doubt about that. Men who allow their faith to stand in the wisdom of men verses the power of God (Christ). As I see it we are all to test and prove what is acceptable and the perfect will of God. Each a workman as unto God a workman that needs not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth. That does appear to indicate a possibility that it might not be.

But yet you have Martin Luther who took out books of the Bible that he disagreed with and decided to add a few words to it that were not actually there to begin with...talk about confusion....

What does Martin Luther have to do with that verse? Why must the underlying tone of every conversation be met with needing to discuss men? Therese God speaks the same things over and over again through paterns and signification in many various ways. Theres no books missing for me, Im online every single book is available to me at the click of a mouse. Jesus said ye search the scriptures because you think "in them" you have eternal life, is eternal life there? No, it can make us wise UNTO salvation but salvation and eternal life (to know God) is in Him to whom they testify.

I agree. Still doesn't explain how those who claim to understand the scriptures and who feel their understanding is inspired by God can be so different than another who believes thier understanding was inspired also...yet they contradict one another...

Where did that verse need to explain someone elses claim? The Son of God is come to give us an understanding to KNOW HIM Who is true. All understanding (just as all knowledge) is IN PART by way of the FORM OF knowledge verses the LIGHT OF knowledge. Even Peter speaks of adding to our faith brotherly kindness (etc etc ) KNOWLEDGE (etc etc) and IF certain things be IN US and ~abound~ THESE will keep us from being unfruitful and barren in OUR KNOWLEDGE OF HIM . So it shows one knowledge in the which asists us in the ADDING to our faith the preceeds our knowledge OF HIM being unhindered. To the others things (besides the form of knowledge) that ought to abound in us.

Given that the scriptures are interpreted correctly.

God gives interpretation, it belongs to Him

Christ instituted the Church who is the pillar and foundation for truth. It is the Church that we should look to for guidance.

Pillar and foundation OF the truth, but HE remains THE TRUTH and the Church ought point to HIM Who IS and give Him His rightful place as did the Apostles. The appostles even said WE preached NOT ourselves BUT Christ the Lord. I dont even reccognize the message of Him hardly anywhere. I know one thing, His own are known by their fruits (that come by Him) and reccognizing another is by the Spirit through whom those fruits are from.

We are not to let our faith stand in the wisdom of men but the power of God, and thats what the gospel came with. His gospel came NOT IN WORD ONLY but POWER and that power was EVIDENT to those who received them and knew the working of that power mightily within them. God bearing his own witness by His own witness. To me, if its powerless and theres no fruit on the tree its an easy reject for me. Trying to convince me theres fruit on the tree when it tastes like shoe leather dont cut it for me.

I never claimed that all who claim to be of one denomination completely agree with all they teach. I know people who claim to be Catholic who disagree with some of its teachings...but can you really say those people are Catholic?

I didnt say you claimed that.

But not anymore then you or I can say of anyone else ~anywhere~ who do not agree 100% with every other church in the world, all have their pet and insignificant doctrines and most of them think they are right significant and true. Every single persons belief, understanding, or knowledge cannot be 100% in FORM because 100% in FORM is IN PART. ALL things by way of this cannot be dictated or lorded over in the hundred percentile because of ones measure and ability wherein we are not to go beyond. Its an illusion to me. The best might get in that delusion is a head nod and silence and no more given you still could be seeing their fear of being looked at as stupid (untrue, false etc).

Why would someone claim to be a part of something they stand opposed to?

I dont know Therese... honestly.... why do people claim many things or do the dumb things they do?
Maybe they dont stand opposed but disagree with some doctrines and have no problem letting it go in one ear and out the other? Maybe they feel its fruitless to say anything (openly) given they (being just the laity) or a lone priest (among the other silent ones) think its not worth saying anything AS IF it will help? LOL Maybe its not a dividing factor for them? Maybe they see it for what it is, "hot air" and arent bothered by it because their faith is NOT standing in the wisdom of men but in Christ?

Its pretty speculatory I would think.

Could I truly be "Pro-Choice" and actually believe that a woman should NOT have a choice as to whether or not to have an abortion?

Obviously not. You could be strong advocate against abortion and find your daughter gets pregnant right? BUT you begin to think how it might be considered a reflection on you in other ways. One could go against THEY SAY because they care MORE about HOW they are SEEN OPENLY then then what they did in secret. Not to mention what you go on and on about on the soapbox about. It happens, people can be hypocrits we all can be a nice goal is that we be without hypocricy.

But you can believe in Jesus Christ, be ignorant on somethings, know in part and not yet made perfect in love.

Different styles of worship is one thing....different beliefs and teachings about God and His Church is another! Jesus condemns false teachings and those who try to teach something other than that which He taught.

Then abide in his words

Just because a "Catholic" doesn't agree with a teaching of the RCC doesn't mean that teaching is not true.

And just because that person disagrees on a teaching of the RCC doesnt make them any less a member of the body of Christ. The EO disagrees on somethings, their standard of measure isnt Rome, or the Pope. The full and perfect measure of stature of is of Christ not other men. Besides those who measure themselves by themselves are the unwise.

Christ wants us to be of one mind and one body...to be one as He and the Father are one...

Thats right having in us the mind of Christ, we are one body and a member of His body by the very Spirit He puts in us. As He and the Father are one (God who is love) and ourselves are being made perfect in one (the love of God) in Christ and Christ Jesus in us (His body) and we should have the same love for one another.

Do you think Jesus believe in sola fide and God the Father that faith and works are necessary? NO.

I havent a clue to what your beef with me is on these things Therese

Their teachings are the same and so should be the teachings of His Church in which He left us. Why do you think the RCC is so strict with its teachings and doctrines? Either you are Catholic or you are not...you can not be both. There is but one truth.

I dont need a testimony about the RCC. Christ is THE Truth and where His are they proclaim HIM not themselves.

What did Jesus say about false prophets?

Heres a link if you want to know
BLB Word Search Results

Even though there is some truth in all denominations....there is but ONE truth and One Church (doctines/teachings)......

HE is THE Truth alright.
Its ones doctrine and life will both save themselves and the hearer. Sometimes when others are not interested in anothers spew there could actually be a GOOD reason for it, not always a bad one. Maybe the love and life of Christ isnt known and read by others in them? Maybe the light in them is not too obvious in the shining deparment? Perhaps they dont hear a voice behind them confirming others who think they are so right? Maybe there is no voice behind them saying "this is the way walk ye in it"? I can only guess.

Christ Himself instituted a Church and gave them the power to bind and loose and to forgive sins.....man did not ask for this or come up with this on their own....Christ gave it to them, to His Church!!!!

What makes you think I dont believe theres a Church?

To know Truth is to know Christ.

He's the Truth.

Therese, Im letting you know right now I'm not too interested in going round and round in a wrestling match over your own wrestings. That was not my intent when I posted the two verses concerning the inspiration of God.

Im not one who enjoys debate for debates sake.

Peace


Fireinfolding

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Therese, Im letting you know right now I'm not too interested in going round and round in a wrestling match over your own wrestings. That was not my intent when I posted the two verses concerning the inspiration of God.

Im not one who enjoys debate for debates sake.

Peace

Fireinfolding

How many rounds are in this match?

http://foru.ms/t6229617-christianity-is-destroying-mankind.html
Christianity is destroying mankind

Christianity is just as disgusting as Islam, but it's far more dangerous.
"But the suicide bombers!" I hear you cry. No, you're an idiot, and you need to shut up.
I shall explain why: Yes, Muslims are primitive, by and large they display the same level of intelligence as a bunch of gibbering, screeching apes, waving spears at the rest of mankind. Sure, they beat their wives and rape their children, back in the Middle Eastern countries where Islam is so prevalent. I say we let them. From what I gather, Muslim women seem to consider beatings and rape as the norm. I've seen videos, on youtube, where Muslim women advocate the religion that condemns them as inferior. So I say we let them kill each other, the occasional hijackings and suicide bombs should be considered an everyday hazard (at least until someone has the balls to eradicate Islam altogether, because that is the only way we can stop it).

The thing about Islam, however, is that it's not hindering humanity's progress. Sure, they kill a few people, but we have people to spare. I'm not saying it's acceptable, but I am saying that it's not a big deal. Not anymore. Not in a society where the number of people who die by falling of the toilet can actually be presented as a statistic.

 

[racer]

The Roman Church was there when thr Scriptures were written and compiled.

Excuse me? You want to qualify this answer? How much of Scripture was written in Rome?

 

[racer]

So explain all the different denominations and interpretations that have lead to separation within the Church.
God is not the author of chaos, and why would He ever lead someone to believe false doctrines?

Human error and fallibility . . . why is that so hard to understand? Just because the RCC happens to agree with itself--as do all other individual churches--there is no guarantee that it is error-proof or infallible. It simply means that the teachings of the RCC are yet another interpretation of Scripture.

 

[racer]

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm

Chapter 40 [XXVII.]—A Collection of Scripture Testimonies. From the Gospels.

This reasoning will carry more weight, after I have collected the mass of Scripture testimonies which I have undertaken to adduce. We have already quoted: "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." Luke 5:32 To the same purport [the Lord] says, on entering the home of Zaccheus: "Today is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham; for the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:9-10 The same truth is declared in the parable of the lost sheep and the ninety and nine which were left until the missing one was sought and found; Luke 15:4 as it is also in the parable of the lost one among the ten silver coins. Luke 15:8 Whence, as He said, "it behoved that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:46-47 Mark likewise, at the end of his Gospel, tells us how that the Lord said: "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes, and is baptized, shall be saved;

 

[racer]

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm

Chapter 29 [XXI.]—It is an Inscrutable Mystery Why Some are Saved, and Others Not.

. . . But we must first bend our necks to the authority of the Holy Scriptures, in order that we may each arrive at knowledge and understanding through faith.

 

[racer]

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm

Chapter 33.—Christ is the Saviour and Redeemer Even of Infants.

Let us therefore give in and yield our assent to the authority of Holy Scripture, which knows not how either to be deceived or to deceive. . . . Let there be then no eternal salvation promised to infants out of our own opinion, without Christ's baptism; for none is promised in that Holy Scripture which is to be preferred to all human authority and opinion.

 

[racer]

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15011.htm

Chapter 37.—How God Enlightens Every Person.

That statement, therefore, which occurs in the gospel, "That was the true Light, which lights every one that comes into the world," John 1:9 has this meaning, that no man is illuminated except with that Light of the truth, which is God; so that no person must think that he is enlightened by him whom he listens to as a learner, although that instructor happen to be—I will not say, any great man—but even an angel himself. For the word of truth is applied to man externally by the ministry of a bodily voice, but yet "neither is he that plants any thing, neither he that waters; but God that gives the increase." 1 Corinthians 3:7 Man indeed hears the speaker, be he man or angel, but in order that he may perceive and know that what is said is true, his mind is internally besprinkled with that light which remains for ever, and which shines even in darkness. But just as the sun is not seen by the blind, though they are clothed as it were with its rays, so is the light of truth not understood by the darkness of folly.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I don't see it quite so clearly, though I will be the first to admit my exposure to the Catechism of the Catholic Church has been minimal, and my understanding is no doubt flawed. However, from what I have studied, it would seem that the catechism places Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition on an equal level, as having sprung forth from the same source and forming one thing, the Word of God.

The Authority in the RCC is "the three legged stool"
1) Tradition as chosen, defined and interpreted by the RCC
2) Scripture "in the heart of the RCC"
3) Magisterium of the RCC - the RCC's own decisions, interpretations, rulings of the RCC itself as determined by the RCC.

These are not a "check" on each other but a suplement - each being EQUAL (none above or below the other, none accountable to one or the other) - TOGETHER they form "one stream" or ONE united source.

But note carefully that all 3 ARE the RCC.

Now, put this together with the RCC's insistence that it is the SOLE interpreter of these 3 "legs" and the RCC's insistence that the RCC is the SOLE arbiter for whether the RCC is itnerpreting these things correct, and the insistence of the RCC that the RCC is infallible in that interpretation and arbitation - and you begin to understand the situation.

My impression is that it then places the Magisterium, in its role of defining dogmas, as the servant, interpreter, guardian and expounder of the Word of God.

See above...


No, the Three-Legs are not above or below any other, not authoritative or subject. Thus, the RCC insists that the RCC must "read" the Scriptures in its own heart via the "lens" of its own Tradition and Magisterium. ANY interpretation that does not affirm the Tradition of the RCC as the RCC itself chooses, defines and interpretes and the Magisterium of the RCC as the RCC itself choose and decides - it's own interpretation, MUST be wrong and rejected. The ONLY intrepretation of Scripture that is valid and acceptable is one that conforms to and affirms RCC Tradition and RCC Magisterium.

The body of believer then receives the dogmas as handed down while also studying, contemplating, practicing theology and growing mysteriously and synergistically with the scriptures under the direct action of the Holy Spirit. The net result being not simply an infallible Pope but an inerrant body of Christ.

No, all must accept WHATEVER the RCC says "with docility." This the Catechism bluntly states in # 87.

The idea that such must be confirmed by the whole body of believers is an Orthodox idea (affirmed by the EO) but is rejected by the RCC. The people are not the church but are subject to the Authority of the Church. That Authority rests NOT in believers but in the Magisterium of the RCC as the RCC itself defines and chooses.




There are many threads, no doubt buried deep in this forum, about this whole topic. I participated in many of them about a year ago.



Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah




.

 

[StTherese]

Human error and fallibility . . . why is that so hard to understand? Just because the RCC happens to agree with itself--as do all other individual churches--there is no guarantee that it is error-proof or infallible. It simply means that the teachings of the RCC are yet another interpretation of Scripture.

Because I believe in a God who is powerful enough to protect His Church from teaching error.....why would He institute a Church that is incapable of standing?

 

[Rick Otto]

error with inability to stand.
A man with the ability to stand sometimes stumbles.


Josiah,
You said:

No, the Three-Legs are not above or below any other, not authoritative or subject. Thus, the RCC insists that the RCC must "read" the Scriptures in its own heart via the "lens" of its own Tradition and Magisterium. ANY interpretation that does not affirm the Tradition of the RCC as the RCC itself chooses, defines and interpretes and the Magisterium of the RCC as the RCC itself choose and decides - it's own interpretation, MUST be wrong and rejected. The ONLY intrepretation of Scripture that is valid and acceptable is one that conforms to and affirms RCC Tradition and RCC Magisterium.

Are you familiar with Gary Wills?
He's a history professor at Northwestern University (if I remember correctly). He's RCC, and a book he wrote fairly recently called "Papal Sin - Structures of Deceit". In it he articulates a lot of these problems from a "loyal opposition" viewpoint.
He approaches larger problems in general, but he gets pretty specific in his description of the bureaucratic intrigue involving Vatican policymaking & how the issues can get spun & lost in the process. This, when he describes the dynamics orchestrated by Pope Leo IX when he convened a council to define the Immaculate Conception & sprung the Infallability issue on them.
I think he may be the same Pope who wrote The Syllabus of Errors that condemned free speech, freedom of religion, and democracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garry_Wills
http://www.amazon.com/Papal-Sin-Structures-Garry-Wills/dp/0385494106

 

[InkBlott]

There are many threads, no doubt buried deep in this forum, about this whole topic. I participated in many of them about a year ago.

I rather intuited that.

My sense is that your take on the catechism is somewhat more negative than is warranted, but I will admit again that I have studied it very little.

I hope you don't mind if I bow out for now and allow those with more expertise, whom you are no doubt already accustomed to debating, take over. I will say, it was an interesting exercise.

Perhaps when I feel a little less shaky on the subject...



Cheers

 

[IamAdopted]

Because I believe in a God who is powerful enough to protect His Church from teaching error.....why would He institute a Church that is incapable of standing?

He didn't institute a church. He gave His Son and His Spirit and His word.. It is the people that are the church.. A people not an institution.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

The Atheists ask that all the time.

When debating them, you will have a half a dozen different denominations of Christ-ianity telling them a half a dozen different views of the Scriptures from a half a dozen different Translations and Greek texts.

So what do you tell them except to just Believe and have Faith?

Ephesians 2:22 in whom also ye are being-builded-together/sun-oik-odomeisqe <4925, into a habitation/kat-oik-hthrion <2732> of the God in Spirit.

Reve 18:2 And he cries-out in a mighty voice, saying, `She falls, She falls, Babylon the great. And she became a habitation/kat-oik-hthrion <2732 of demons, and prison of every spirit, unclean, and prison of every bird hated,

Please take me to your atheists.

 

[lionroar0]

He didn't institute a church. He gave His Son and His Spirit and His word.. It is the people that are the church.. A people not an institution.

An institution is a community of people.

The institution of marriage. Those with that institution are married and have some part to play in it. Such as children.
The institution of education are those people that are part of the education system. Whether public or private. Whether in kindergarden or a Phd. Wether a in a school janitor or a president of a college. They are all part of the institution of education.

People are most certainly an institution when they belong to a community.

The institution of the Church is made up of all christians of all churches.
Jesus most certainly started (instituted) the Church. A community if christians

Peace