The Scriptures and Authority

[lionroar0]

Why is He a Mystery?

I 've already answered that question.

From my POV you are stating that us infinite and created beigns can completely understand and know God who is infinite and eternal.

Because He is God, perfect, infinite and eternl and we are imperfect, finite and created.

Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I 've already answered that question.

From my POV you are stating that us infinite and created beigns can completely understand and know God who is infinite and eternal.

Because He is God, perfect, infinite and eternl and we are imperfect, finite and created.

Peace

Um that won't cut it with the Jews, Muslims and Atheists

Isaiah 28:17 And-I-place judgement for-tape and-righteousness for-plummet and-he-shall-shovel hail refuge-of lie and-concealment waters, and-they-shall-overflow.
18 And-shall-be-atoned/kaphar, Covenant-of-you with death, and-seer with Sh@'owl , not she-shall-be-rise, scourge

http://foru.ms/t5615012-jesus-christ-was-he-sent-for-all-mankind.html
-jesus-christ-was-he-sent-for-all-mankind

Hello.We muslims believe he was sent to the sons of Israel not for all mankind.This doesnt mean the one who follows Him in real does a wrong job but this is God's plan for He sent Muhammed-aleyhissalam-to all mankind.Which proofs do christians have to claim that Jesus was sent to entire humanity and not only to the israelites?

 

[lionroar0]

Um that won't cut it with the Jews, Muslims and Atheists

Well since they don't belive that Jesus is God I suppose not.

Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well since they don't belive that Jesus is God I suppose not.

Peace

Why do they have to believe He was YHWH?

Why can't we first explain to them how He was His SON/WORD also, then explain how He was YHWH?

John 1:1 | en <1722> {IN} arch <746> {A-BEGINNING} hn <2258> (5713) {WAS} o <3588> {THE} logoV <3056> {WORD,} kai <2532> {AND} o <3588> {THE} logoV <3056> {WORD} hn <2258> (5713) {WAS} proV <4314> {TOWARD} ton <3588> {THE} qeon <2316> {GOD,} kai <2532> {AND} qeoV <2316> {GOD} hn <2258> (5713) {WAS} o <3588> {THE} logoV <3056> {WORD.}

Revelation 12:5............ kai <2532> {AND} hrpasqh <726> (5681) {WAS CAUGHT AWAY} to <3588> {THE} teknon <5043> {OFFSPRING} authV <846> {OF HER} proV <4314> {TOWARD} ton <3588> {THE} qeon <2316> {GOD} kai <2532> {AND} ton <3588> {THE} qronon <2362> {THRONE} autou <846> {OF HIM}

 

[InkBlott]

1. I asked this in other threads numerous times but have yet to get an answer: Where in Scripture does it says that the Roman Catholic denomination is the sole authority for Christians, and where does it say that the RCC is the sole interpreter of Scripture and that WHATEVER interpretation it makes is therefore infallible and unaccountable?

The question of the role of the Pope in the Roman Catholic church is an interesting one, but I don't think it's one that we can place in pure dichotomy against the question of sola scriptura. The best approach for us to take may involve finding the proper balance between the role of the patriarchs (and matriarchs) of the Christian faith (past and present), tradition, personal revelation/inspiration and the authority of scripture. Obviously that's a difficult task, as it places a certain responsibility on all our shoulders while requiring a great deal of humility on everyone's part, but I think we'll be more unified as Christians for having taken on the challenge.

 

[Fireinfolding]

To know God is to what we been called to

John 17:8 And this ~is~ life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1John 5:20 we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God ~hath~ the witness ~in himself~: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[lionroar0]

Why do they have to believe He was YHWH?

Why can't we first explain to them how He was His SON/WORD also, then explain how He was YHWH?

I'm not against explaing it any certain way to them.

If they come to Christ that way then, that's great.

I was just saying that we can't fully know God.

His ways are not our ways.

Peace

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm not against explaing it any certain way to them.

If they come to Christ that way then, that's great.

I was just saying that we can't fully know God.

His ways are not our ways.

Peace

Hi. If Jesus is God, and brought His knowledge of His Father YHWH to the us and the world, why would He leave us ignorant of His Father and His Ways?

Matt 7:13 "Into-come thru the cramped gate. That broad/plateia <4116> the Gate, and spacious the WAY the one leading-away into the Destruction, and many are the ones into-coming thru her.
14 That cramped the gate and having been narrowed the WAY the one leading-away into the Life and few are the ones finding her

 

[lionroar0]

Hi. If Jesus is God, and brought His knowledge of His Father YHWH to the us and the world, why would He leave us ignorant of His Father and His Ways?

I'm not saying that He will leave us totally ignorant. As in no knowledge of God.

I'm stateting that we cannot fully know Him. As in we can't predict what He will do from one moment to the next. We don't know why He heals one person and leaves another one not healed. Why He gives one spiritual gift to one person and not to another.

Peace

 

[ticker]

And so while He is building His church, He asks that we build, strengthen, and edify each other by speaking the truth in love..

Thy word is truth.. and..

1 Peter 4:11 - If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

This is our admonition, from His authoritive word.

Hi Markea. I couldn't understand what you meant by your last post.

That quote is exactly what I'm talking about.

What the oracles spoke of God didn't come from scripture. Oracles connect to the supernatural to do what they do....as can we look to God to guide our very words.

The ability to minister doesn't come out of the Bible, but again from a connection to the supernatural. And we can again look to God to guide our very actions.


My point being...not knowing this admonition or verse you've quoted (which it just so happens I've never seen before) wouldn't stop me from carrying out God's authoritative will (...by His Grace of course). Nothing will.

I would say God is the real authority...His words are just a reflection of it. Do you agree with this?


Cheers

 

[Markea]

Hi Markea. I couldn't understand what you meant by your last post.

That quote is exactly what I'm talking about.

What the oracles spoke of God didn't come from scripture. Oracles connect to the supernatural to do what they do....as can we look to God to guide our words.

The ability to minister doesn't come out of the Bible, but again from a connection to the supernatural. And we can again look to God to guide our actions.


My point being...not knowing this admonition or verse you've quoted (which I've actually never seen before) wouldn't stop me from carrying out God's authoritive will (...by the Grace of God).

I would say God is the authority...His words are just a reflection of it. Do you agree with this?

You didn't understand speaking the TRUTH in love..?

What is truth.. ? Thy word is truth.. All scripture is God breathed.. and let GOD be TRUE and every man a liar..

The oracles of God are most certainly the word of God..

So are you suggesting that scripture is not the word of God, or not authoritive..?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You didn't understand speaking the TRUTH in love..?

What is truth.. ? Thy word is truth.. All scripture is God breathed.. and let GOD be TRUE and every man a liar..

The oracles of God are most certainly the word of God..

So are you suggesting that scripture is not the word of God, or not authoritive..?

I don't think he is saying that, it is just Jews and most of "church-ianity" have problems "piecing" them together .

Reve 21:3 And I hear sound, great, out of the Throne saying: " Lo! the booth/tabernacle of the God with the mankind, and He shall be boothing/tabernacling with them and they, peoples of Him shall be, and He, the God, with them shall be of them God.
23 And the city not need is having of the sun, neither of the moon, that they should be appearing to her. For the glory of the God illuminates her and the Lamp of her, the Lamb-kin.
24 And shall be walking/about treading the nations by the light of her, and the kings of the land are carrying the glory of them into her.

 

[ticker]

Hey Markea

You didn't understand speaking the TRUTH in love..?

I do understand...I do it everyday. I put my trust in Christ to speak His love through me. Speaking the truth in love doesn't necessarily mean reciting scruipture, right?

The oracles of God are most certainly the word of God..

Yeah......that's what I said. What oracles speak of come from a supernatural source.

So are you suggesting that scripture is not the word of God, or not authoritive..?

?

I just said scripture is a reflection of God's authority. It's not the authority though. God is the authority. And we have access to God (...in addition to scripture).


The point I'm simply making is that you had said we "have the King's authority in your hand" after He's "left" us.

I'm saying the authority is still here...and that what we have in our hand is simply a reflection of that authority. That's all (...'cause I think there could be a danger if people think of scripture itself as the authority).

Do you agree with that? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your stance.


Cheers

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

1.- There were no denominations at the time of writing the Bible

I agree, therefore we are both of the position that the CC didn't exist in the first century. But what that has to do with my post isn't clear to me...

2.- That only proves that the Bible authors used Scripture, but nothing more...

Actually, it doesn't show that God's penmen used Scripture. It shows that from Moses through Jesus to Paul, Peter and the Apostles, Scripture was used as the norma normans - thus Sola Scriptura is illustrated.

Now, would you like to show me where in Scripture it tells us that the final rule/canon for theology is the RC denomination? That the RCC is the sole authority, sole teacher, sole voice, sole interpreter and sole arbiter - predeclared by self to be infallible and thus unaccountable?



Good chatting with you again after all these months...


Pax


- Josiah




.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The question of the role of the Pope in the Roman Catholic church is an interesting one, but I don't think it's one that we can place in pure dichotomy against the question of sola scriptura. The best approach for us to take may involve finding the proper balance between the role of the patriarchs (and matriarchs) of the Christian faith (past and present), tradition, personal revelation/inspiration and the authority of scripture. Obviously that's a difficult task, as it places a certain responsibility on all our shoulders while requiring a great deal of humility on everyone's part, but I think we'll be more unified as Christians for having taken on the challenge.

Of course, Sola Scriptura does not, in any sense, exclude Tradition or the "wisdom of the past." Indeed, I consider such to be essential. The question is not one of either/or, not a question of which. It is a question of which order, which is under or accountable to which. THAT is the point of disagreement. Catholic Catechism 80-100 and 113 make it clear that the RCC places Scripture UNDER itself whereas I believe the order should be reversed. Man should be accountable to God, not God to man, IMHO.


Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah




.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

1. I asked this in other threads numerous times but have yet to get an answer: Where in Scripture does it says that the Roman Catholic denomination is the sole authority for Christians, and where does it say that the RCC is the sole interpreter of Scripture and that WHATEVER interpretation it makes is therefore infallible and unaccountable?

You have gotten an answer as many times as you asked the quetion. Just not to your satisfaction.

Actually, I've just never gotten any answer at all.

 

[ticker]

I don't think he is saying that, it is just Jews and most of "church-ianity" have problems "piecing" them together .

Right-o.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

The Roman Church was there when thr Scriptures were written and compiled.

No one knows when the congregation in Rome was founded. Perhaps in the 50's. In any case, certainly all of the OT was written before then. All but the books where John was the penmen by the late 60's.

What we do know is that the Roman Church had absolultely nothing whatsoever to do with the writing of a single letter of Holy Scripture. Nothing at all. There's also no evidence that it had anything at all to do with its preservation or compilation. All we know is that the RC denomination officially embraced the Canon at Trent in the 16th Century - it officially embraced the Canon as it already existed. Even if we consider the Council of Hippo (not the congregation in Rome), while not official, the Canon already existed by that time so that I beleive my priest is correct and that the RCC did NOT select the Canon but rather affirmed the Canon. HUGE difference there, my FULL Unseparated brother in Christ. ALL denominations (including the RCC at Trent) affirmed the Canon but that has nothing to do with the formation of the Canon, as you well know.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah



.

 

[JimfromOhio]

2.- That only proves that the Bible authors used Scripture, but nothing more...

God is the Author. But hey, if some disagree... I can understand why.

 

[InkBlott]

Of course, Sola Scriptura does not, in any sense, exclude Tradition or the "wisdom of the past." Indeed, I consider such to be essential. The question is not one of either/or, not a question of which. It is a question of which order, which is under or accountable to which. THAT is the point of disagreement. Catholic Catechism 80-100 and 113 make it clear that the RCC places Scripture UNDER itself whereas I believe the order should be reversed. Man should be accountable to God, not God to man, IMHO.

I don't see it quite so clearly, though I will be the first to admit my exposure to the Catechism of the Catholic Church has been minimal, and my understanding is no doubt flawed. However, from what I have studied, it would seem that the catechism places Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition on an equal level, as having sprung forth from the same source and forming one thing, the Word of God. My impression is that it then places the Magisterium, in its role of defining dogmas, as the servant, interpreter, guardian and expounder of the Word of God. The body of believer then receives the dogmas as handed down while also studying, contemplating, practicing theology and growing mysteriously and synergistically with the scriptures under the direct action of the Holy Spirit. The net result being not simply an infallible Pope but an inerrant body of Christ.

There seems to be quite a bit of language indicating interdependence. Personally, I would like to see more, but it certainly doesn't impress me as a cut-and-dried hierarchy placing the Pope above the authority of the scriptures, or utterly denigrating the ability of the body of believers to do effective theology under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.