The Scriptures and Authority

[GorrionGris]

I agree, therefore we are both of the position that the CC didn't exist in the first century. But what that has to do with my post isn't clear to me...




Actually, it doesn't show that God's penmen used Scripture. It shows that from Moses through Jesus to Paul, Peter and the Apostles, Scripture was used as the norma normans - thus Sola Scriptura is illustrated.

Now, would you like to show me where in Scripture it tells us that the final rule/canon for theology is the RC denomination? That the RCC is the sole authority, sole teacher, sole voice, sole interpreter and sole arbiter - predeclared by self to be infallible and thus unaccountable?



Good chatting with you again after all these months...


Pax


- Josiah




.

Well, it's pretty easy, there could be no references to issues that were not existent, then, so the whole question is irrelevant. And by the record, that was my answer. So you got one

And as for the norma normans, no way. They simply were interpreting the OT at the light of the NT, but the Gospel is not deduced from the OT as you or I could write a new Theological thesis; but from the hagiographers' direct or indirect experience of the life, death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. That (yet) extra-Scriptural experience marked the main and more important sources of the NT.

So I could make a case that Sola Scriptura was not the norma normans, assuming (and that's quite absurd) that Scripture has to conform to the methodology of Theology.

I miss you too.

 

[GorrionGris]

God is the Author. But hey, if some disagree... I can understand why.

In another time and in another place, I'd love to dwell in the turbulent waters of the problems of Inspiration. But not now, of course what I meant were the persons who wrote the Bible.

 

[Rick Otto]

If yours is the role of defining what scripture means, your above scripture in your role.

 

[GorrionGris]

If yours is the role of defining what scripture means, your above scripture in your role.

No, my role is not to define what Scripture means. I'm a nobody

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No, my role is not to define what Scripture means. I'm a nobody

What does that have to do with interpreting Scriptures.

Matthew 16:18 `Also I to you am saying, that thou art peter/petroV <4074> , and upon this, the rock/petra <4073> I shall be building of Me the assembly, and gates of Hades not shall be prevailing of her;

1 Peter 2:8 and a stone/liqoV <3037> of stumbling and a rock/petra <4073> of snare--who are stumbling to the Word, being stubborn, --into which also they were set/placed;

 

[GorrionGris]

What does that have to do with interpreting Scriptures.

Matthew 16:18 `Also I to you am saying, that thou art peter/petroV <4074> , and upon this, the rock/petra <4073> I shall be building of Me the assembly, and gates of Hades not shall be prevailing of her;

1 Peter 2:8 and a stone/liqoV <3037> of stumbling and a rock/petra <4073> of snare--who are stumbling to the Word, being stubborn, --into which also they were set/placed;

I was replying a previous post.

 

[Markea]

I just said scripture is a reflection of God's authority. It's not the authority though. God is the authority. And we have access to God (...in addition to scripture).


The point I'm simply making is that you had said we "have the King's authority in your hand" after He's "left" us.

I'm saying the authority is still here...and that what we have in our hand is simply a reflection of that authority. That's all (...'cause I think there could be a danger if people think of scripture itself as the authority).

Do you agree with that? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your stance.


Cheers

I don't understand how you can separate God from His word.. ie.. by saying that the bible is not the authority, He is..

Of course HE is the authority of His own word, but again.. how can you separate that.. it's what He says..

And it's vital that we speak the truth in accordance with the scriptures because any Tom, Dick, or Harry could come along and say that they're speaking with the authority of God because they have Christ in them...

Peter writes that the scriptures are a MORE SURE WORD than hearing God's voice audibly, as they did on the mount.. So I don't see how we can separate the two..

I hope this makes sense.. I'm not sure if you're going somewhere with this.. etc..

 

[ticker]

I don't understand how you can separate God from His word.. ie.. by saying that the bible is not the authority, He is..

I guess the plain answer is that the Bible simply isn't a conscious, supernatural entity...and that God is. Any written word is then just a reflection of that authoritative entitiy. The actual authority (God's Spirit) can very much be accessed by His people.

It seems to me you had been saying that God can't be reached, so all we have is His word to go by. Is this what you mean? If not, then feel free to correct me.

And it's vital that we speak the truth in accordance with the scriptures because any Tom, Dick, or Harry could come along and say that they're speaking with the authority of God because they have Christ in them...

Sure, they could...but on the same token, any Tom, Dick, or Harry could say they're speaking the truth in accordance with the scriptures. Know what I mean? We can't know one way or the other in either case...that doesn't mean though there aren't people who truly speak God's authority (...apart from directly reciting scripture I mean).


All I'm suggesting is that the actual authority (God's very Spirit) is present and accessable to us, and that we can trust in His enabling grace when there is absence of scripture (...or intellect). Do you agree with this?


Cheers

 

[Fireinfolding]

The scriptures are given of the inspiration of God but so also is understanding given by the same inspiration. That of the Spirit of God, by the same.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

No, my role is not to define what Scripture means. I'm a nobody

And to think, Jesus died for us "nobodies"...
What love..

 

[StTherese]

The scriptures are given of the inspiration of God but so also is understanding given by the same inspiration. That of the Spirit of God, by the same.

So explain all the different denominations and interpretations that have lead to separation within the Church.
God is not the author of chaos, and why would He ever lead someone to believe false doctrines?

 

[Hentenza]

So explain all the different denominations and interpretations that have lead to separation within the Church.
God is not the author of chaos, and why would He ever lead someone to believe false doctrines?

So that the RC would have some folks to keep it in check. Much better now than in the middle ages, don't you think?

 

[Rick Otto]

Chaos is a mischaracterization.
Seperation has been there since the begining.
Seperaton isn't entirely bad.
Freedom of religion is one explanation for differences.
The Holy Spirit isn't restricted to the __________ Church.
Men of every Church have made mistakes.
Unity centers on obedience to the two greatest commandments more than on anything else.
Chaos & conformity can both be a facade.
What is visible is usualy only the surface of what is realy there.

 

[StTherese]

Chaos is a mischaracterization.
Seperation has been there since the begining.
Seperaton isn't entirely bad.
Freedom of religion is one explanation for differences.
The Holy Spirit isn't restricted to the __________ Church.
Men of every Church have made mistakes.
Unity centers on obedience to the two greatest commandments more than on anything else.
Chaos & conformity can both be a facade.
What is visible is usualy only the surface of what is realy there.

The Holy Spirit would not lead people to believe false teachings. So would the Holy Spirit lead one person to the Baptist denomination, another to the RCC and so on?

You may be on to something with that "unity" and "obedience" thing. Obedience has nothing to do with how we feel or what we think. It is a submission to Truth.

 

[ticker]

God is not the author of chaos, and why would He ever lead someone to believe false doctrines?

That's right...God is not the author of chaos...someone else has decided to take up that role already.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Well, men invent them themselves, I suppose we should pray if we want people not to be fooled any longer.

 

[ticker]

Well, men invent them themselves, I suppose we should pray if we want people not to be fooled any longer.

Praying is good.

Praying with a teachable heart is even better!

Problem is, many Christians go into prayer with some established, false notions of what it means to follow God (...notions that have essentially stemmed out of our inclinations from when we were in Adam that make us think we have to make ourselves presentable to God).

Unless though, people trust and believe in the full forgiveness and acceptance of our loving Father, and choose to reject the lie of the garden.......that it's up to us (something found in many religious docrines).......then all their prayers in the world won't help them get over a faulty, works-based mindset that will only burden and stifle their Christian growth.


Cheers

 

[Fireinfolding]

So explain all the different denominations and interpretations that have lead to separation within the Church.

No.



Its just the way you asked, SO EXPLAIN rather then, "What are your thoughts on this"?

Why do I have to answer for His words in accordance with the question that came to your mind on them that never entered mine?

I'll post the verses from where you are springboarding your own questions...

2Titus 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God

True? Yes

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

True? Yes

All scripture is given for reproof

Proverbs 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

True? Yes

I dont need to explain them. It appears as if your asking, if God is true please look at men and explain them. What kind of question is that?

Just because 1 million people sit in under "the dominion" of any particular brand of church does not mean all those within it truly agree with that church. Catholics included (coming from a huge family of them) I know this very well. Its a delusion to think otherwise.

Why do people not agree might be a better question Carnally minded? (all sorts of objectives in this mind) whether in the churches or outside them. And the Spriritually minded? (one accord having the same love for another)

....or the Borg mentality that appears as one but is more into mind and thought control?

Ok, seriously now... differences were allowed, off the top of my head there were allowable differences In how one man regarded a holy day or not. What he could eat according to conscience. What you believed about certain things (and kept to yourself) and having ones faith before God. Weaker and stronger brothers and sisters exist together. Those still yet carnal and those who were spiritual. Paul knowing His boundaries couldnt speak in the same mind (in wisdom) to those carnal but as a man. He even said that knowing his limitations but he could walk in love toward them (in that mind) just couldnt speak it lol

Being AS LORDS over anothers faith? That was something Paul said he was not. My faith rests on Christ alone. I dont claim to know it all nor am I interested in being one. I'm free to "prove all things" and so is everyone else (whether they know it or not).

Im where I am by the grace of God, same as you.

Trying to control anothers desire to prove a thing or is vain and pretending theres no differences "here" (as in my church "where I go") is a lie.

Theres all sorts of people, there are those who call upon the Lord with a pure heart and others who preach for profit. There are those who preach Christ (not out of goodwill) but out of strife and envy. There are those who desire to draw others after themselves, and thats their only concern (who is with us). There are those who have but a form of godliness and would trip over the power of it. These (and then some) exist.

Paul made no promises that there will never be false doctrines or teachers did he? Its sorta expected (with me) that there will be.

Maybe some are more comfortable with their religion and not really interested (or believe) they are called to laid hold of knowing God? Maybe they were told they needed to be in the right church so when they dead and buried they can "go to heaven" and have no clue eternal life is to be in them and its to know God?

I cant even pretend to know lol

I would guess men as lords seem to be a part of the problem and the "dum dums" who let their faith stand in the wisdom of men over the power of God (Christ).

We are called to know HIM (~the Lord of~ the book) not just ~the book of~ the Lord.

God is not the author of chaos,

Thats right He is not the author of confusion. Confusion is not just in "misunderstandings" its WHERE ~strife and envy~ ARE and wherever THAT is its not the wisdom from above but that which is earthly, sensual and devilish and surely not of the inspiration of God. I agree.

and why would He ever lead someone to believe false doctrines?

Who implied God would lead those who place their trust in Him to false doctrines?

From what I understand theres doctrine issues tied into the RC and EO divisions isnt there? Are you asking why would GOD lead either of them to any of these things?

Did God do that to you?

God is shown sending a lying Spirit. He is also capable of sending a power delusion that anyone would believe a lie right? Because they receive not a "love for the truth" right? God knows hearts, what God does He does in truth.

You might have to ask God I am not Him

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Fireinfolding]

That's right...God is not the author of chaos...someone else has decided to take up that role already.

That was cute

 

[Markea]

I guess the plain answer is that the Bible simply isn't a conscious, supernatural entity...and that God is. Any written word is then just a reflection of that authoritative entitiy. The actual authority (God's Spirit) can very much be accessed by His people.

It's not as though the scriptures are like ANY written word.. they're the word of God.. and the Lord Himself says that His words are spirit and they are life..

The testimonies over the centuries affirm this very thing.. ie, Thy word is a lamp unto my feet.. and a light unto my path.. and ..the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So it's not like ANY book.. It's the testimony of God concerning His Son... ie.. in the volume of the book it is written of Me..

It seems to me you had been saying that God can't be reached, so all we have is His word to go by. Is this what you mean? If not, then feel free to correct me.

Why would you suggest this.. God dwells within His people.. and He is the very center of our life.. He is our life, because we are not our own.. we are bought with a price.. Paul would write it this way in Colossians..

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.

Sure, they could...but on the same token, any Tom, Dick, or Harry could say they're speaking the truth in accordance with the scriptures. Know what I mean? We can't know one way or the other in either case...that doesn't mean though there aren't people who truly speak God's authority (...apart from directly reciting scripture I mean).

Do you have some examples of speaking on God's authority apart from His word..?

All I'm suggesting is that the actual authority (God's very Spirit) is present and accessable to us, and that we can trust in His enabling grace when there is absence of scripture (...or intellect). Do you agree with this?

Cheers

Absolutely.. but don't forget that the scriptures are a more sure word of prophecy.. more sure than hearing God's voice audibly..