The "Saints" are More Righteous Than We Are...

[Rick Otto]

The earliest Church understood, as we Apostolic Christians do, that heaven and God are near, and that those who believe in Him "never die." Those who disbelieve this have taken on the ways of the disbelievers and Stoics.

I understand & believe all that & still don't pray to them.
Tell us now about the ways of the believers that haven't taken on the ways of the heathen.

 

[CatholicFlame]

I understand & believe all that & still don't pray to them.
Tell us now about the ways of the believers that haven't taken on the ways of the heathen.

Well from my studies it seems that the earliest church, like in the first 3 centuries, prayed in this way.

That wouldn't make them heathen though.

 

[Rick Otto]

I wouldn't say that doing one heathen thing would make a Christian heathen.
I hope you didn't think I'm the kind of person who would do that.

I also hope you don't think I'm the kind of guy who would approve of something just because everybody's doing it &/or did it in the 1st century, as impressive as that is to many people.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

I understand & believe all that & still don't pray to them.
Tell us now about the ways of the believers that haven't taken on the ways of the heathen.

I'd rather show you. See you at Divine Liturgy.

 

[Rick Otto]

Ya got me there!
No way to comeback for that one!

 

[CatholicFlame]

I'd rather show you. See you at Divine Liturgy.

Rdr, just because it's true that christians asked the intercession of those in heaven back then, it sure is not enough to think that Rick is returning to the catholic church next sunday!

Rick, I will ask the intercession of your family members who have passed on if you need a little push.

 

[CatholicFlame]

I'd rather show you. See you at Divine Liturgy.

Ya got me there!
No way to comeback for that one!

Rick he has alot of hope for you bro!

I do too btw, buy Rdr is a gem of a christian.

 

[Rick Otto]

I'd rather you talk to Jesus about it, if it makes any difference to ya, bro.
My family members might not listen to you any more than they did to me.

 

[Catholic Christian]

I understand & believe all that & still don't pray to them....

Awww, come on. Don't be a stick in the mud. Go ahead, give it a whirl.

 

[Rick Otto]

I've whirled plenty already, bro.
Do you forget I was raised RC?

 

[CatholicFlame]

Awww, come on. Don't be a stick in the mud. Go ahead, give it a whirl.

Hey hold on now, it took St. Augustine like many years to even say okay, fine, I'll be a christian.

I know Rick is an alright guy, but if it took Augustine that long...

 

[CatholicFlame]

I've whirled plenty already, bro.
Do you forget I was raised RC?

Well I know that.

I guess that not many people know, or do they?

I do know that the church of your childhood is probably not the church of today though.

For one thing, everybody grew up!

 

[Rick Otto]

...more or less. (LOL)

 

[CatholicFlame]

...more or less. (LOL)

 

[Gary51]

Well I hope that this was not spoken in the future tense, or else we are all in for a shock.

You sure are!

 

[Gary51]

The problems with believing that saints are in heaven…

John 3:13 "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man"


Those that deny that simple straightforward statement, look for a way out… Such as saying that… Jesus meant that only people living in the flesh have not gone into heaven.

Well, that is not what the verse says… it does not say… “No one in the flesh has ever gone into heaven except Him that came from heaven – the Son of Man.”

Jesus meant what he said… NO ONE has gone into heaven in any shape or form, other than Himself.

But of course then comes the argument… “What about Enoch and Elijah”

If Enoch and Elijah are in heaven, then it contradicts John 3:13, but we know that the Bible does not contradict, so they are not in heaven.

But according to those that insist Elijah and Enoch are in heaven, then they must be there in the flesh, as they did not see death.

1 Corinthians 15:50
"I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."

Romans 8:8 (King James Version)
"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

BTW, if one prays to saints… wouldn’t they have to be omniscient like God?

 

[Catholic Christian]

The problems with believing that saints are in heaven… John 3:13 "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man"

Heaven had not been opened yet when Jesus said that.

BTW: What church do you attend, out of curiosity?

 

[Rick Otto]

He attends the one instituted by Jesus & The Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Ok, sorry CF.

 

[CatholicFlame]

He attends the one instituted by Jesus & The Holy Spirit at Pentecost, so of course it isn't the RCC.

 

[mont974x4]

There are charismatic catholics...or would that be one of those divisions that rc's claim don't exist?