The "Saints" are More Righteous Than We Are...

[CatholicFlame]

This is the first time you have asked that question in this thread today, as I can see by looking at your posts, so I'm wondering if you're trying to "pull a fast one", or if & how you could be so confused as to think you've already asked me that.
I don't want to waste any more effort on dishonesty, or if that isn't the case, and I'm believing it isn't, I don't want to waste any time on confusion, so maybe you can help me clear it up before we proceed, bro?
Sorry if that seems too inconvenient.

Sorry Rick, no dishonestly was intended there.

I actually wrote that post in reply to what you and CC were talking about and I guess I was writing it at the very moment that you posted yours. I just left it since it seemed to be going in the same general direction of my first question. I apologize if it seemed dishonest. Not my intention at all bro.

Well, this was my first question to you

How do you see praying to saints to help us and Jesus being our advocate already being in conflict?

thank you Rick for this discussion.

 

[Rick Otto]

Ok, no problemo, except...
Suncritter's OP is about saints in heaven, not on earth.

 

[CatholicFlame]

Oh well then I guess we could talk about that if you are interested. I do believe that the saints in heaven are much closer to the Lord and that their prayers are very powerful with Him.

Do you think that make sense from a protestant perspective?

 

[lionroar0]

Ok, no problemo, except...
Suncritter's OP is about saints in heaven, not on earth.

Will you answer the mans question already!!!! I want to know what you think.

Peace

 

[Rick Otto]

Oh well then I guess we could talk about that if you are interested. I do believe that the saints in heaven are much closer to the Lord and that their prayers are very powerful with Him.

Do you think that make sense from a protestant perspective?

If they still need to pray up there, and you mean closer in physical proximity, yes it makes sense.
I would imagine they'd simply speak face-to-face with Him. And since it may be "argued" that space is a material concept inapplicable in heaven, then let us measure the distance in "facelengths" or "armlengths', sinceI presume it may be supposed our faces & arms don't get longer or shorter in spirit.

Will you answer the mans question already!!!! I want to know what you think.

Thanks for the compliment, lionroar.

 

[lionroar0]

Thanks for the compliment, lionroar.

YW

Peace

 

[CatholicFlame]

If they still need to pray up there, and you mean closer in physical proximity, yes it makes sense.

yeah I guess that word pray , when looked at from God's perspective is really a word that means to talk to , or to ask. Kind of like "I pray you, pass the butter."

I would imagine they'd simply speak face-to-face with Him.

And since it may be "argued" that space is a material concept inapplicable in heaven, then let us measure the distance in "facelengths" or "armlengths', sinceI presume it may be supposed our faces & arms don't get longer or shorter in spirit.

yeah somehow they are very close to God, being able to see Him and all, they are also beyond space and time too.

What that means, only they know really. We have but a glimpse of this from our understanding here.

 

[Catholic Christian]

So while this statement is in fact true: "Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God" ...it has nothing to do with praying to saints in heaven to pray for you.

It does if you understand that those in heaven are Christians just like us. What, do you think that you stop being a Christian when you go to heaven?

 

[E.C.]

Actualy, that is the opposite of scriptural truth:
Mt 5:29 - And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Heresies broke out.

Arius claimed that Christ had no divinity and was solely a "creature". He and the ECFs that refuted him both had tons of Scriptural support behind their claims.

If they went only by Scripture, than how could they have found the solution?

That didn't take place in heaven.

But is still relevant.

 

[Gary51]

Who is more righteous than people in heaven? Not me.

Just curious.

John 3:13 "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man"

Am I missing something here? Was Jesus kidding when He said that?

According to that direct statement from the lips of Jesus, there are no people in heaven!

 

[Gary51]

what is the difference between asking a saint in heaven to pray for you than asking someone on earth to pray for you?

Because you can see that the person on earth is capable of praying, because he is alive.

On the other hand the saints can't pray for you because they are dead.

I say this with John 3:13 still fresh in my mind!

 

[Rick Otto]

Gary, could John have meant living people in their flesh, excepting Jesus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Otto
So while this statement is in fact true: "Clearly, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God" ...it has nothing to do with praying to saints in heaven to pray for you.

It does if you understand that those in heaven are Christians just like us. What, do you think that you stop being a Christian when you go to heaven?

No terry, it doesn't have anything to do with praying to departed saints no matter what else you think you understand because it simply isn't referring to praying to departed saints, it is referring to still living people praying for others, not praying to departed saints to pray for them.
It realy isn't complicated. You don't even need a priest to explain it.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=EmperorConstantine;Heresies broke out.

Arius claimed that Christ had no divinity and was solely a "creature". He and the ECFs that refuted him both had tons of Scriptural support behind their claims.

If they went only by Scripture, than how could they have found the solution?

Someone obviously added vain imagination to scripture at some point, so no, they weren't going only by scripture.
That didn't take place in heaven.

But is still relevant.

It isn't because we are talking about praying to departed saints that are in heaven.
Besides the fact they were on a mountain, not in heaven, nobody prayed to them then & there, correct?
It is an example to follow.

 

[Gary51]

Gary, could John have meant living people in their flesh, excepting Jesus?

1 Corinthians 15:50
"I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."

Romans 8:8 (King James Version) "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

 

[Rick Otto]

 

[CatholicFlame]

John 3:13 "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man"

Am I missing something here? Was Jesus kidding when He said that?

According to that direct statement from the lips of Jesus, there are no people in heaven!

Well I hope that this was not spoken in the future tense, or else we are all in for a shock.

 

[CatholicFlame]

Someone obviously added vain imagination to scripture at some point, so no, they weren't going only by scripture.

Rick, have you ever looked into why christians first started to ask the intercession of the saints in heaven?

Knowing this could really help us in this thread.

 

[Rick Otto]

The reasons for people learning the ways of the heathen are legion, but generaly organize themselves into a few simple categories.

This one on the surface reflects a basic lack of confidence in the scriptures and their own ability to discern them alone with The Holy Spirit, instead of being patronized by a class of vested interest individuals who divide the brotherhood of believers into basicaly two classes.

Looking into it would probably involve listening to apologists for the practice rationalize away some basic scriptures that contradict the practice as Godly in character.

Feel free to expound on it in full glory, but the scriptures alone impress me enough to reduce ancient myths, fables, & stories of miraculous grandeur to mere emotion laden appeals to religious affections.

No personal offense intended, I think you're a nice guy.

 

[CatholicFlame]

The reasons for people learning the ways of the heathen are legion, but generaly organize themselves into a few simple categories.

This one on the surface reflects a basic lack of confidence in the scriptures and their own ability to discern them alone with The Holy Spirit, instead of being patronized by a class of vested interest individuals who divide the brotherhood of believers into basicaly two classes.

Looking into it would probably involve listening to apologists for the practice rationalize away some basic scriptures that contradict the practice as Godly in character.

Feel free to expound on it in full glory, but the scriptures alone impress me enough to reduce ancient myths, fables, & stories of miraculous grandeur to mere emotion laden appeals to religious affections.

No personal offense intended, I think you're a nice guy.

Oh Rick I actually meant why the earliest christians who asked the intercession of saints did.

I was wondered if you had some ideas about why they did.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

The earliest Church understood, as we Apostolic Christians do, that heaven and God are near, and that those who believe in Him "never die." Those who disbelieve this have taken on the ways of the disbelievers and Stoics.