The "Saints" are More Righteous Than We Are...

[CatholicFlame]

The problems with believing that saints are in heaven…

John 3:13 "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven - the Son of Man"


Those that deny that simple straightforward statement, look for a way out… Such as saying that… Jesus meant that only people living in the flesh have not gone into heaven.

Well, that is not what the verse says… it does not say… “No one in the flesh has ever gone into heaven except Him that came from heaven – the Son of Man.”

Jesus meant what he said… NO ONE has gone into heaven in any shape or form, other than Himself.

But of course then comes the argument… “What about Enoch and Elijah”

If Enoch and Elijah are in heaven, then it contradicts John 3:13, but we know that the Bible does not contradict, so they are not in heaven.

But according to those that insist Elijah and Enoch are in heaven, then they must be there in the flesh, as they did not see death.

1 Corinthians 15:50
"I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God."

Romans 8:8 (King James Version)
"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

BTW, if one prays to saints… wouldn’t they have to be omniscient like God?

Gary,

I can see that you are a seeker in regards to what church you go to, and I hope that you find some more answers in your search.

I don't want this thread to be de-railed too much, but I would only say that although I see what you are saying about that verse, that is not the way it has been interpreted by most christians.

Maybe you could bring that topic up in a thread by it's own and have some others help you to understand how we believe that verse to be true, yet also believe that there are indeed people in heaven.

God bless you brother

 

[mont974x4]

Gary brings up a main reason to reject praying to saints. It requires God's attributes, like omnipresence, to be bestowed upon saints. Of course, there is no proof of any such event happening, nor is there any proof of a dead saint talking to a live saint.

 

[CatholicFlame]

Gary brings up a main reason to reject praying to saints. It requires God's attributes, like omnipresence, to be bestowed upon saints. Of course, there is no proof of any such event happening, nor is there any proof of a dead saint talking to a live saint.

Hi Jay,

I hope that you are doing well. God bless you bro.

Well I was mostly referring to Gary's main point about John 3:13 in my reply.

He did mention omnipresence though at the end, I guess we could talk about that if you want to.

 

[jckstraw72]

why does it require omnipresence? why doesnt it just require the Holy Spirit?

 

[CatholicFlame]

why does it require omnipresence? why doesnt it just require the Holy Spirit?

Can you explain what you mean by the Holy Spirit in this case? What would the Spirit of God do?

 

[mont974x4]

Hi Jay,

I hope that you are doing well. God bless you bro.

Well I was mostly referring to Gary's main point about John 3:13 in my reply.

He did mention omnipresence though at the end, I guess we could talk about that if you want to.

Thanks, Brother. Not doing to bad here, thanks. I certainly hope all is well on your end.

I made my post because I thought it was relevant to the discussion. It deals with the mechanics of how praying to the saints would work, if it were true.


Think about this, how many people all over the world pray to Mary (or another saint)? Very likely at the same time. Now, we would all agree that God being divine and being God has no problem handling such a load and we have support for the ideals of His omnipresence etc but no such support for those things to be seen in the saints in Heaven.

The idea of praying to saints, in order for it to work, demands God-like abilities in, and worshipful attitudes towards, dead saints.

 

[CatholicFlame]

Thanks, Brother. Not doing to bad here, thanks. I certainly hope all is well on your end.

I haven't been to GT for along time but I did miss you guys here.

I made my post because I thought it was relevant to the discussion. It deals with the mechanics of how praying to the saints would work, if it were true.


Think about this, how many people all over the world pray to Mary (or another saint)? Very likely at the same time. Now, we would all agree that God being divine and being God has no problem handling such a load and we have support for the ideals of His omnipresence etc but no such support for those things to be seen in the saints in Heaven.

It sounds like you are saying that you would not believe in the intercession of the saints because you see them being able to hear the prayers of many people at once as not possible for human people.

The idea of praying to saints, in order for it to work, demands God-like abilities

and worshipful attitudes towards, dead saints.

This is a different issue that some have with asking the intercession of the saints here. Is the problem that you have with it, that we are talking to someone who is beyond our physical senses, and that seems like worship?

Thanks Jay for this discussion.

 

[jckstraw72]

Can you explain what you mean by the Holy Spirit in this case? What would the Spirit of God do?

allow the Saints to "hear" our requests for prayer. the Creed says "I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" -- this is in the Holy Spirit section of the Creed -- it is He that binds as one -- so He lets 'em "hear" our requests -- I dont know how and i think itd be foolishness to try to figure it out.

 

[mont974x4]

It is worship, and therefore idolotry.
It places another person between them and God.
It assumes God-like attributes, as I already explained.

The main problem I have is the absolute lack of biblical support for it and the typical way that rome twists and tries to explain they're way around the facts. The :more alive" argument being one of the most used.

 

[jckstraw72]

It is worship, and therefore idolotry.

how is asking someone to pray for you the same as worship?

It places another person between them and God.

how does asking someone to pray for you place htem between you and God?

It assumes God-like attributes, as I already explained.

how does trusting the Spirit to unite us attribute God-like qualities to humans?

 

[CatholicFlame]

It is worship, and therefore idolotry.
It places another person between them and God.
It assumes God-like attributes, as I already explained.

The main problem I have is the absolute lack of biblical support for it and the typical way that rome twists and tries to explain they're way around the facts. The :more alive" argument being one of the most used.

Well Mont, I am sorry that you feel this way.

I do hope you understand though that this practice has been in existance since the early church, the 1st-3rd centuries.

It really isn't a twist of anything if you want my take on it.

God bless you, I know this is a tough subject.

 

[E.C.]

It is worship, and therefore idolotry.
It places another person between them and God.
It assumes God-like attributes, as I already explained.

The main problem I have is the absolute lack of biblical support for it and the typical way that rome twists and tries to explain they're way around the facts. The :more alive" argument being one of the most used.

"God is Love. Humans Love Humans.

Therefore Humans are God."


That sounds like your logic and it is false. Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

 

[mont974x4]

Humans are God?

 

[E.C.]

Humans are God?

The example I gave in my post (parentheses added for clarification) is the sort of logic that I'm seeing from you.

The need of proof I see as a lack of faith. I say that because I could throw in all the cases and stories of living people that have had experiences with being visited by saints and so forth in dreams. I could post all of those that I could find and it wouldn't make a difference because you would either say "it is not possible", "they are delusional" or "they have been tricked".

 

[mont974x4]

The example I gave in my post (parentheses added for clarification) is the sort of logic that I'm seeing from you.

The need of proof I see as a lack of faith. I say that because I could throw in all the cases and stories of living people that have had experiences with being visited by saints and so forth in dreams. I could post all of those that I could find and it wouldn't make a difference because you would either say "it is not possible", "they are delusional" or "they have been tricked".

I have a lack of faith because I reject a teaching/ideaql that has no biblical support?

You said humans are God and really expect me to not see that as idolotrous? Don't the mormons (or is it JW's) who believe something like that?


The Bible clearly shows angels visiting living people. We see Jesus with Moses and Elijah. We do NOT see living saints conversing with dead saints.


I have shown clearly what attributes God has that would have to be assumed by dead saints in order for the idea to work and you claim it's bad logic?

Are you OK? You usually make more sense than this.

 

[Albion]

how is asking someone to pray for you the same as worship?

Personally, I wouldn't say that it is. Asking my next door neighbor to pray for me as I go into surgery, for example, would not be worship.

But if we are to be honest about this subject, there are many elements of worship which have been directed at various saints and passed off as merely "asking." When candles are lit before icons of them, or when we bow and say in prayer to them that they can deliver what is requested, on their own--all actual practices--then that can fairly be put into the category of worship.

how does asking someone to pray for you place htem between you and God?

You do consider them to be intermediaries, don't you? Yes, of course. When you ask them to intercede with God on your behalf that is exactly what is being done.

 

[jckstraw72]

intermediaries? i dont see how -- if htey are then so is my neighbor that i ask to pray for me.

lighting a candle also does not mean worship -- and i dont know of anyone that asks Saints to do anything of their own power -- they have no power of hteir own.

 

[E.C.]

I have shown clearly what attributes God has that would have to be assumed by dead saints in order for the idea to work and you claim it's bad logic?

Are you OK? You usually make more sense than this.

Oh no!

I see what I did! When I was typing that post, my mind was in another thread and somehow the two came together and...

Give me a moment to regroup here...

 

[mont974x4]

No problem, kiddo. I got some coffee if you'd like some.

 

[E.C.]

No problem, kiddo. I got some coffee if you'd like some.

Shan't be necessary. Its about 1pm here. Lunch should help.



Well, I'll take a post from my blog that is about the saints, using a modern example. I took out the bit that was a slam towards Protestants. I know that there are many molehills where you or others that are not Orthodox can or will make mountains out of either now or later. Please ignore those bits. At least for now.
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On the saints.

Christ conquered death by death.
With this, all have eternal life. Those whom God judges go one direction or the other. Those who... "pass" are in heaven and in Communion with Him.

The ones who are on the "hall of fame" of good people are the saints. They are there for a myriad of reasons. Either they died for the Faith (martyrs), defended it from heresy (theologians) or were just very close to God.

In Orthodoxy, as saint is not "canonized" by any one figure as in Catholicism. A saint is venerated among the local community and this veneration spreads. An example is that of St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco (aka St. John Maximovitch) who had reposed in 1966. He lived an eventful life and obviously loved God and was well loved by those around him. There are many miracles related to him both before and after his repose. The people of his parish, I believe, had anticipated his sainthood which may have been part of the reason his body was under the altar at his cathedral. This area was flooded and great conditions for decomposition of anything in it. However, when he was exhumed in 1993, his body looked as it did the day he reposed. This incorruptibility was a sign of his sainthood and he was glorified by the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR) the following year.

In time, his... reputation had spread throughout the Orthodox world. In fact, in November our parish priest and his wife (called matushka in Slavic traditions) visited Russia and took with them some holy oil from the cathedral St. John had helped build in San Francisco where is body remains. Whenever our priest would give some holy oil to the priest of a church they visited, the priest would be filled with joy and ask if they were from San Francisco! I think for Russians it is good that Orthodoxy is growing in America; even better that we have a few saints!

St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco is with God. He is in Communion with Him. Because St. John is with God and in Communion with Him, he is aware of the prayers of those on this earth. Many pray for St. John's prayers that he may pray to God for them. Many have experienced wonders (miracles) related to St. John.

Since nothing but good has come from these prayers, they are obviously of God. If evil had com from them than they would not be of God, they would be of something else.

The saints' bodies are still on this earth, yet their soul is with God. Since they are with God, they can hear us. To say that they can not hear us, is to say that God can not hear us. Which is also to say that Christ never conquered death and that eternal life, and all that we as Christians live for, is a scheme.
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Just to add, without praying, what would the people in heaven do? What else would they do besides pray for the living while being in Communion with God? Why would the do something else?