The Sabbath Is More Than Just Saturday

[SabbathBlessings]

I love your conversation and responses. I just wanted to add that you didn't reference Genesis 2:3. I believe the strongest argument for keeping the Sabbath is the same one used for marriage between a man and a woman. I wish our denomination would move away from using the justification of the law (I can't count the amount of times I've heard "it's lawful to do good on the Sabbath"), towards the fullness of Creation and thanking God for rest in it's fullness in Christ and rest from our labours on the Sabbath. The Sabbath is definitely a "shadow of things to come" and Christ is definitely our rest (Colossians 2:17), however, that does not remove Sabbath as being part of Creation.

It's also worth mentioning that because of our current conception of a weekend the moral nature of the Sabbath is often lost on most of us. If a workplace was to mandate a 7 day work week, what would we all appeal to in order to object against such a mandate?

God bless

Hey there!

Thanks for the post and your comments.

I disagree about Col 2:17 referring to the Sabbath commandment. If you look at Colossians 2:14-17 KJV, you will see that it is not referring to the seventh day Sabbath commandment, but the annual sabbath(s) ordinance that pointed forward and are fulfilled in Christ. If you look at Col 2:17 and Hebrews 10:1 its almost identical and if you keep reading in Hebrews 10:1-22 it shows its referring to animal sacrifices.

The seventh day Sabbath commandment points us back to Creation "Remember the Sabbath" as it is a memorial of Creation and God's redemptive power and will never be a shadow of anything as we see it continues for eternity Isaiah 66:23

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

Hey there!

Thanks for the post and your comments.

I disagree about Col 2:17 referring to the Sabbath commandment. If you look at Colossians 2:14-17 KJV, you will see that it is not referring to the seventh day Sabbath commandment, but the sabbath(s) ordinance that pointed forward and are fulfilled in Christ. If you look at Col 2:17 and Hebrews 10:1 its almost identical and if you keep reading in Hebrews 10:1-22 it shows its referring to animal sacrifices.

The seventh day Sabbath commandment points us back to Creation "Remember the Sabbath" as it is a memorial of Creation and God's redemptive power and will never be a shadow of anything as we see it continues for eternity Isaiah 66:23

Unfortunately I believe I differ here from our tradition. I think Hebrews 10:1 only enforces Col 2:17 as it says that the Law only has a shadow of the good things. The Sabbath commandment is part of the Law. While there's mention of sacrifice in order to make the point of the previous chapters, I don't see an inherent reason to exclude the Sabbath commandment as a shadow. I could just as easily make a similar argument saying that Colossians 2:16-17 is almost identical to 2 Corinthians 3:17 and argue against the Sabbath .

One of the reasons why I think the Genesis 2:3 argument is better is because it avoids all of this and everybody affirms marriage as man and a woman based on Creation (like Paul did when condemning homosexual acts in Romans 1:27). Therein, the Sabbath remains sanctified and holy, set apart from every other day.

Edit: In other words, an appeal to Creation for the truth of marriage is to simultaneously affirm the Sabbath as sanctified and set apart .

 

[Mercy Shown]

What we are discussing it's not about judging ourselves or about not being possible to keep God's commandments the way God asks, which is not a doctrine I agree with, God would not give us a commandment and then not give us the power to keep them. We do not serve a god of trickery, He said we can overcome through Him, and I choose to believe Him.

You are not claiming to be without sin are you?

We have been discussing if the Sabbath rest somehow turned into Jesus and therefore, we no longer need to keep the 4th commandment and there is no scripture that say this in the entire bible.

You have added a lot of extra material to this discussion. I generally do not associate "need to keep..." with something I deeply desire to do so I don't often employ such terminology. If you review what has been said, you will see that we are not turning rest into Jesus but instead saying rest is found in Jesus by abiding in Him. "Come onto me all you who are heavy laden and you will find rest..."

If you find physical rest in the sabbath how much more will you find rest in Christ? The Sabbath rest is a type of the rest we find in Christ. Those who refuse to enter into Christ's rest are saved and rest from all trouble and work sin brought to their lives. Keeping the 4th commandment is subjective at best but if we are in Christ our efforts are more than acceptable to God. Outside of Christ all of our efforts to keep the Sabbath are but the murmurings of disgruntled pharisee.

Jesus is not a day or a commandment, He is the Creator. Jesus did not command Himself to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy so we can go freely and profane it

Outside of Christ, his would be a judgment on our part, but in Christ, we have kept the law perfectly. By his one sacrifice, He has perfected us forever.

, this is not a doctrine of scripture or from Hebrews 4, if you spend some time looking at the scripture references you will see Hebrews 4 is not doing away with the 4th commandment at all, in fact it tells us the exact opposite.

I fail to see where that argument was ever made. Personally, I would never want to do away with something God made for us. It can be difficult at times to hear what other people say instead of hearing what we think they said.

There are two different rests being referred to in Hebrews 4 as Hebrews 4:10 NIV clearly shows, but I am happy to go through it with you. Not every rest is the Sabbath rest (commandment), scripture dictates this, not us.

There are two rests referenced in Hebrews 4.

Lets start with the very first verse... it establishes what His rest means which is found throughout this passage. Note, we should fear to come short of His rest, which later establishes is rebellion/disobeidence to God.

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.

This is the Greek Word for rest here and found throughout the passage with the exception of Hebrews 4:4 and Hebrews 4:9

katapausis: rest
Original Word: κατάπαυσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: katapausis
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ap'-ow-sis)
Definition: rest
Usage: (in the Old Testament of the rest attained by the settlement in Canaan), resting, rest, dwelling, habitation.

This whole passage is taking us back to the days of the wilderness when the Israelites were in their test trying to get to the land of Canaan to get their promised rest and inheritance. The writer is contrasting the Israelites and bringing it back to today and telling us not to follow their example of disobedience Hebrews 4:6 Hebrews 4:11 so we won't be consumed from our trial that is today. This is why Joshua is mentioned and another day because the Israelites rest was delayed due to their disobedience. Hebrews 4:6 Hebrews 4:8 David is mentioned because he references the trial in the wilderness and Hebrews 4:7 quotes David verbatim Psalms 95:7-8 saying "today" if you hear His voice do not harden your heart in rebellion like the Israelites which again this whole passage is warning us of not following their example of disobedience Hebrews 4:6 Hebrews 4:11

What did the Israelites rebel to in the wilderness?

If we allow scripture to interpret itself it does....

Eze 20:13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Which is what this whole passage is leading up to....

In Hebrews 4:9 it switches from "Christ rest" to the "Sabbath rest" which we are clearly told it remains for God's people, meaning it did not change. The rest in this verse literally translates into Sabbath-keeping and is completely different than Christ's rest as shown previously.

Hebrews 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;

The definition of rest in this verse.

sabbatismos: a sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: a sabbath rest
Usage: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.


Hebrews 4:10 shows clearly there are two rests in this passage being referred to.

The rest in Christ and the seventh day Sabbath rest.

Hebrews 4:10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.

When did God rest from His works the way we are commanded to?

This very passage tells us... Hebrews 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works

In Christ rest these is no rebellion to Him or His commandments including Sabbath-keeping, which remains for the people of God.

Isaiah 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

There is further study on this in Rev 14:11-12 but we can perhaps save that for another day.

Hebrews 4 is drawing a parallel between God's rest and a sabbath rest, which coincidently is God's rest. "God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all the work that he had done."

Just as some of the children of Isreal missed out on God's rest (the promised land) because of disbelief, Christians can miss out on the ultimate promised land because of unbelief. You see, it is not obedience that counts for righteousness, it is a belief that leads to obedience that God counts for righteousness.

Eden was lost because of unbelief but it can be regained again by belief and rest in Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

It s something we do because of our salvation. I must have Christ because apart from Him I can do nothing.

As God renews our minds we will live more and more according to his will in us. Apart from Christ, we can do nothing. Am I obligated? I so desire to do his will that obligation does not come to mind.

Jesus redeems us. Jesus purifies us to himself. Jesus empowers us to do good works we were created to do. If we abide in him, we will produce much fruit. All of it is a product of our salvation.

Again, Titus 2:11-14 does not say that we will do those works because of or as the product of our salvation, but rather it describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do those works.

No, our rest is from trying to do works to earn our salvation because it is a free gift.

The goal of obeying God's law has never been about trying to earn our salvation, which is why there are many verses that speak against that fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law, but rather living in obedience to God's law is part of His free gift of salvation.

The rest comes in simply abiding in Christ and believing that we stand before God as if we had never sinned because Christ stood before him as if He had.

The way to abide in Christ is by obeying God's law (1 John 2:6), or in other words, God's law is His instructions for how to abide in Christ.

I don't understand what you are trying to say when you talk about a "break from obedience?" Is obedience not the desire of our hearts, the focus of our souls, and the delight of our beings?

You said:

"We can only find condemnation from the Law of God for it is holy, just, and good but we are not unless we enter God's rest and rest from all the work we have been doing to try and be holy and instead believe his word to us."

God's word to us teaches us how to be holy, so resting from doing that work is taking a break from believing his word to us.

Here are a few to consider:
Romans 4:15
For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

God's law brings wrath for those who refuse to obey it, not for those who choose to obey it.

Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatian 3:1-2 denies that "works of the law" are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore that phrase does not refer to obedience to God. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works while our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-11.

According to Deuteronomy 27-28, relying on God's law is the way to be blessed while not relying on it is the way to be cursed, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as quoting from Deuteronomy in order to support a point that is arguing against Deuteronomy by saying that relying on God's law is the way to be cursed and the way to avoid being cursed is by refusing to obey it. Rather, those who rely on works of the law instead of relying on God's law thereby come under the curse of not relying on God's law.

Moreover, in Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 saying that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys God's law will live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the ones who are living in obedience to God's law while no one is justified by works of the law because they are not of faith, unlike God's law. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law, so again it is of faith. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a way of living that is not in obedience to it.

Romans 3:19-20
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

The law is just and good but we are not.

God's law brings knowledge of how to do what is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) and by contrast it brings also brings knowledge of sin.

I believe you but I would like to hear exactly why you will be saved from His wrath on that day.

We are saved from God's wrath because of our faith and by the same faith we also uphold God's law (Romans 3:31), which is why only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13).

There is only one perfect way to keep God's law.

If that were the case, then God's word would not have given humans the authority to make rulings about how to obey it (Exodus 18, Deuteronomy 17:8-13).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You are not claiming to be without sin are you?

We all have sinned and come short of God's Glory, but does that mean we can keep sinning freely? Jesus came to save us from sin, not in sin Matthew 1:21

You have added a lot of extra material to this discussion.

Not really, I am staying in the context of the discussion of Hebrews 4. Hebrews 4 itself references the trial of the wilderness, Joshua and David so we need to look there to understand what it means.

I generally do not associate "need to keep..." with something I deeply desire to do so I don't often employ such terminology.

Thats your choice, we have have free will. However, there is no scripture that says the Ten Commandments are optional or multiple choice in God's Word. Do you use this same philosophy with thou shalt not murder or just the 4th commandment?

If you review what has been said, you will see that we are not turning rest into Jesus but instead saying rest is found in Jesus by abiding in Him. "Come onto me all you who are heavy laden and you will find rest..."

Yes, we have established this, there are more than one type of rest. Christ does not give us Sabbath rest, you are adding "Sabbath" to the verse when its not there. Christ does not give us Sabbath rest so we can do our own thing on the Sabbath day and profane His holy day. There is no scripture that says Christ is our Sabbath rest or gives us Sabbath rest, this is a man-made teaching leading people to break one of His holy commandments.

If you find physical rest in the sabbath how much more will you find rest in Christ?

Why do you think it needs to be one or the other? We need to physically rest on the seventh day because it is a commandment of God Exodus 20:8-11 so we can rest in Him on the Sabbath Isaiah 58:13 by removing all the work and stress in the world and just focus on Jesus for one whole day, not doing anything secular but focusing on Christ. Yet professed Christians argue against this for some strange reason.

The Sabbath rest is a type of the rest we find in Christ.

You have not established this by scripture, just your words and what has been repeated in the secular world who have creatively tried to find ways to break the Sabbath commandment, which is exactly the warning of Hebrews 4 tells us not to do, we should not harden our heart to the Holy Spirit calling us to not be in rebellion to Him. Rebellion is sin and sin is the transgression of God's law Romans 7:7 and who do you think wants us to beleive we no longer need to keep one of God's commandments? It certainly is not God.

Those who refuse to enter into Christ's rest are saved and rest from all trouble and work sin brought to their lives.

Do you have a Text for this?

Keeping the 4th commandment is subjective

Not in my bible. The scriptures are filled with how to keep the Sabbath. We do not have a God who would give us a commandment that we will be judged by James 2:10-12 and not give us instructions or power on how to keep it.

at best but if we are in Christ our efforts are more than acceptable to God.

Can you point to the Text that says a little sin is okay. When Jesus healed He said go and sin no more, not go and sin a little less.

Outside of Christ all of our efforts to keep the Sabbath are but the murmurings of disgruntled pharisee.

We cannot do anything with out Christ, but obeying Him requires our cooperation. John 14:15-18

Outside of Christ, his would be a judgment on our part, but in Christ, we have kept the law perfectly. By his one sacrifice, He has perfected us forever.I fail to see where that argument was ever made.

Jesus does not keep the commandments for us so we do not have to. Daily we have choices - do we obey Him or do we rebel and do our own thing. Jesus will help us obey Him, but it requires our cooperation John 14:15-18

Personally, I would never want to do away with something God made for us.

Honesty, I didn't notice. It sure seems like you are trying to argue that we no longer need to keep the Sabbath commandment.

It can be difficult at times to hear what other people say instead of hearing what we think they said.

True

Hebrews 4 is drawing a parallel between God's rest and a sabbath rest, which coincidently is God's rest. "God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all the work that he had done."

Again, you have not established this and have completely ignored what it actually does say.

Just as some of the children of Isreal missed out on God's rest (the promised land) because of disbelief, Christians can miss out on the ultimate promised land because of unbelief. You see, it is not obedience that counts for righteousness, it is a belief that leads to obedience that God counts for righteousness.

I think Paul says it best.

Romans 6:16 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

He also says what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 and Paul and the apostles kept every Sabbath in a holy manner, the way we are supposed to as well.

Eden was lost because of unbelief but it can be regained again by belief and rest in Christ.

Eden was lost due to Adam and Eve listening to "the other voice" instead of obeying God, the same thing that is happening today. God said Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy Exodus 20:8-11 man says to forget and created a whole new meaning of the Sabbath that is not biblical. We are told to live by every Word Matthew 4:4

 

[pasifika]

Hebrews 4 directly ties the sabbath rest to rest found in Christ. It is the true meaning of the Sabbath. Just as God rested from his work, we are to rest from our work and accept our righteousness from Him by faith. Heb 4:10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.

It is a gloriously joyful message to us delivered in a form we can understand. If you love the Sabbath day and look eagerly forward to it each week, you can begin to understand what God has done for us on the cross in giving us rest from our works and sin.

Amen! The 7th day Sabbath or Law & Prophets always point to Christ. (Christ in us the "hope" of Glory).

Some, denominations have been blinded by this obvious truth. As Paul said in Galatians.."they are alienated from Christ, they have fallen away from Grace..

Continue, in that anointed as He teaches you all things..

 

[pasifika]

What we are discussing it's not about judging ourselves or about not being possible to keep God's commandments the way God asks, which is not a doctrine I agree with, God would not give us a commandment and then not give us the power to keep them. We do not serve a god of trickery, He said we can overcome through Him, and I choose to believe Him. We have been discussing if the Sabbath rest somehow turned into Jesus and therefore, we no longer need to keep the 4th commandment and there is no scripture that say this in the entire bible. Jesus is not a day or a commandment, He is the Creator. Jesus did not command Himself to keep the seventh day Sabbath holy so we can go freely and profane it, this is not a doctrine of scripture or from Hebrews 4, if you spend some time looking at the scripture references you will see Hebrews 4 is not doing away with the 4th commandment at all, in fact it tells us the exact opposite.

There are two different rests being referred to in Hebrews 4 as Hebrews 4:10 NIV clearly shows, but I am happy to go through it with you. Not every rest is the Sabbath rest (commandment), scripture dictates this, not us.

There are two rests referenced in Hebrews 4.

Lets start with the very first verse... it establishes what His rest means which is found throughout this passage. Note, we should fear to come short of His rest, which later establishes is rebellion/disobeidence to God.

Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.

This is the Greek Word for rest here and found throughout the passage with the exception of Hebrews 4:4 and Hebrews 4:9

katapausis: rest
Original Word: κατάπαυσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: katapausis
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ap'-ow-sis)
Definition: rest
Usage: (in the Old Testament of the rest attained by the settlement in Canaan), resting, rest, dwelling, habitation.

This whole passage is taking us back to the days of the wilderness when the Israelites were in their test trying to get to the land of Canaan to get their promised rest and inheritance. The writer is contrasting the Israelites and bringing it back to today and telling us not to follow their example of disobedience Hebrews 4:6 Hebrews 4:11 so we won't be consumed from our trial that is today. This is why Joshua is mentioned and another day because the Israelites rest was delayed due to their disobedience. Hebrews 4:6 Hebrews 4:8 David is mentioned because he references the trial in the wilderness and Hebrews 4:7 quotes David verbatim Psalms 95:7-8 saying "today" if you hear His voice do not harden your heart in rebellion like the Israelites which again this whole passage is warning us of not following their example of disobedience Hebrews 4:6 Hebrews 4:11

What did the Israelites rebel to in the wilderness?

If we allow scripture to interpret itself it does....

Eze 20:13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Which is what this whole passage is leading up to....

In Hebrews 4:9 it switches from "Christ rest" to the "Sabbath rest" which we are clearly told it remains for God's people, meaning it did not change. The rest in this verse literally translates into Sabbath-keeping and is completely different than Christ's rest as shown previously.

Hebrews 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;

The definition of rest in this verse.

sabbatismos: a sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: a sabbath rest
Usage: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.


Hebrews 4:10 shows clearly there are two rests in this passage being referred to.

The rest in Christ and the seventh day Sabbath rest.

Hebrews 4:10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.

When did God rest from His works the way we are commanded to?

This very passage tells us... Hebrews 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works

In Christ rest these is no rebellion to Him or His commandments including Sabbath-keeping, which remains for the people of God.

Isaiah 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

There is further study on this in Rev 14:11-12 but we can perhaps save that for another day.

Hi SB, there is No two Sabbath Rest in Hebrews 4. Only One Sabbath Rest.

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

Amen! The 7th day Sabbath or Law & Prophets always point to Christ. (Christ in us the "hope" of Glory).

Some, denominations have been blinded by this obvious truth. As Paul said in Galatians.."they are alienated from Christ, they have fallen away from Grace..

Continue, in that anointed as He teaches you all things..

Careful of your saying that those who have died for Christ and His gospel have fallen away from grace and stand condemned. I understand where you're coming from but it's not fruitful to lay such accusations on an entire denomination of Christianity. There are many solid, faithful Seventh Day Adventist Christians who love Jesus just as much as you do and try to serve Him with all of their might. I'd say the same thing to Adventists as well.

God bless

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi SB, there is No two Sabbath Rest in Hebrews 4. Only One Sabbath Rest.

Agree, I never said there were two Sabbaths rest, I said there are more than one rest in scripture and it does not always refer to the Sabbath rest (commandment) scripture dictates what rest it refers to, not us.

Christ rest is not the Sabbath commandment as clearly shown in this post The Sabbath Is More Than Just Saturday

 

[pasifika]

Careful of your saying that those who have died for Christ and His gospel have fallen away from grace and stand condemned. I understand where you're coming from but it's not fruitful to lay such accusations on an entire denomination of Christianity. There are many solid, faithful Seventh Day Adventist Christians who love Jesus just as much as you do and try to serve Him with all of their might. I'd say the same thing to Adventists as well.

God bless

The verse I quoted from Galatians 5:5 reference to those who seek to be justified by the law (works of the Law) Not those who believe in Christ through the Gospel.

God bless

 

[pasifika]

Agree, which is the Sabbath commandment.

Christ rest is not the Sabbath commandment as clearly shown in this post The Sabbath Is More Than Just Saturday

This is also the Sabbath safehouse so we cannot debate the Sabbath commandment in this forum.

My apology. Didn't see it Sabbath warehouse.

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

The verse I quoted from Galatians 5:5 reference to those who seek to be justified by the law (works of the Law) Not those who believe in Christ through the Gospel.

God bless

Yes my friend but you did aim it at '"some denominations". Many Adventists believe that keeping the 10 commandments is being faithful to Christ. They don't believe that it's earning righteousness, but rather fulfilling His will and desire. Even if some may be confused and wrong, I have no doubt in God's immense grace, love & mercy He will forgive them and correct them. Our denomination is much more diverse in belief than the outside appearance lets in and you'll find a lot of variance among the reasoning for holding to the conclusions we do.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes my friend but you did aim it at '"some denominations". Many Adventists believe that keeping the 10 commandments is being faithful to Christ. They don't believe that it's earning righteousness, but rather fulfilling His will and desire

Amen!

 

[Mercy Shown]

Careful of your saying that those who have died for Christ and His gospel have fallen away from grace and stand condemned. I understand where you're coming from but it's not fruitful to lay such accusations on an entire denomination of Christianity. There are many solid, faithful Seventh Day Adventist Christians who love Jesus just as much as you do and try to serve Him with all of their might. I'd say the same thing to Adventists as well.

God bless

This is also true of Catholics, Presbyterians, baptists, etc. Denominations will save no one.

 

[Mercy Shown]

We all have sinned and come short of God's Glory, but does that mean we can keep sinning freely? Jesus came to save us from sin, not in sin Matthew 1:21

And why would anyone desire to sin? If one desires to sin, I do not think that they want to be saved from it?

Not really, I am staying in the context of the discussion of Hebrews 4. Hebrews 4 itself references the trial of the wilderness, Joshua and David so we need to look there to understand what it means.

It also is comparing that Joshua who died on the cross to save us. Our Joshua (Jesus) is the antitype of the Joshua of the OT.

Thats your choice, we have have free will. However, there is no scripture that says the Ten Commandments are optional or multiple choice in God's Word. Do you use this same philosophy with thou shalt not murder or just the 4th commandment?

If we are going to put ourselves under the Ten Commandments then we are also under its curse. (Gal 3:10) But if we put ourselves under Christ we are made perfect forever. (Heb 10:14) This is the Gospel that Christ became sin for us so that we might be the righteousness of Christ in Him.

This is incredibly joyful and overwhelms us with the love of God.

Yes, we have established this, there are more than one type of rest. Christ does not give us Sabbath rest, you are adding "Sabbath" to the verse when its not there. Christ does not give us Sabbath rest so we can do our own thing on the Sabbath day and profane His holy day. There is no scripture that says Christ is our Sabbath rest or gives us Sabbath rest, this is a man-made teaching leading people to break one of His holy commandments.

Would you not agree that keeping God's law is righteousness? If so then rejoice because Christ not only do we have rest in Christ but it is because he also covers everything for us. As it is written, It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Jesus is our wisdom. Jesus is our righteousness. Jesus is our holiness and He is our redemption. What wondrous love is this?

Why do you think it needs to be one or the other? We need to physically rest on the seventh day because it is a commandment of God Exodus 20:8-11 so we can rest in Him on the Sabbath Isaiah 58:13 by removing all the work and stress in the world and just focus on Jesus for one whole day, not doing anything secular but focusing on Christ. Yet professed Christians argue against this for some strange reason.

I need to focus on Jesus every single day and I need it more and more and more!

You have not established this by scripture, just your words and what has been repeated in the secular world who have creatively tried to find ways to break the Sabbath commandment, which is exactly the warning of Hebrews 4 tells us not to do, we should not harden our heart to the Holy Spirit calling us to not be in rebellion to Him. Rebellion is sin and sin is the transgression of God's law Romans 7:7 and who do you think wants us to beleive we no longer need to keep one of God's commandments? It certainly is not God.

This is sad. How have I tried to break God's law? God forbid, do I nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, I uphold the law. The law is immutable and those who break it are eternally damned and cannot unbreak it. Once broken the wages must be paid and nothing that you or I can do will stop this process. The worst of it is that the wages are eternal death. Who shall deliver us from this body of death?

Do you have a Text for this?

Not in my bible. The scriptures are filled with how to keep the Sabbath. We do not have a God who would give us a commandment that we will be judged by James 2:10-12 and not give us instructions or power on how to keep it.

Sabbath keeping is subjective. To demonstrate this let me ask you a few questions.

Is swimming ok to do on Sabbath?
How about wading?
Do you use electrical appliances and lights on Sabbath? If so, how do you justify purchasing electricity on Sabbath?
Is it ok to listen to secular music on Sabbath? What if it is classical music?
Is scuba diving a good Sabbath afternoon activity?
Do you sleep after heavy meals on Sabbath afternoons? If so is this an inactivity God would approve of?
Do you eat in the cafeteria on the sabbath at camp meetings or religious conventions thus purchasing food on the Sabbath?
If I lived above the arctic circle, how would I keep a sabbath?

Now all of these questions are subjective and yet some people would insist that their answers were the correct ones and anyone who disagreed was simply breaking the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.

Can you point to the Text that says a little sin is okay. When Jesus healed He said go and sin no more, not go and sin a little less.

Was not Jesus telling her to not practice sin anymore, to leave her lifestyle and follow Him rather than telling her to be perfect? Are you without sin? I know that I cannot tell others that they should be perfect unless I am perfect.

We cannot do anything with out Christ, but obeying Him requires our cooperation. John 14:15-18

Obeying Christ is the grandest thing we can do, but none of us are perfect at it. I love it when my little grandson tries to do the things I do. I do not criticize his febles efforts for it pleases me to see him so love me and I know that my Abba does not criticize my feeble efforts to be like Him for it pleases Him to see me trying..

Jesus does not keep the commandments for us so we do not have to. Daily we have choices - do we obey Him or do we rebel and do our own thing. Jesus will help us obey Him, but it requires our cooperation John 14:15-18

Jesus kept the commandments for us all. He did it perfectly and then gave us his victory. As it is written but thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Why is it that some people feel that if God gives them victory and promises them eternal life as a free gift they must still be compelled to obey him? God does not want us to obey Him because we are compelled to do so by threat of damnation.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

And why would anyone desire to sin?

Because people are selfish and they prefer doing their will over God’s will.

If one desires to sin, I do not think that they want to be saved from it?

Sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4 and Paul quotes from the Ten Commandments to define sin Romans 7:7 Sadly many Christians think they can break God’s law and consider it not to be sin, but its not what the scriptures teach.

It also is comparing that Joshua who died on the cross to save us. Our Joshua (Jesus) is the antitype of the Joshua of the OT.

Joshua is a type of Christ no doubt, but still doesn’t change what Hebrews 4 is teaching us which was previously outlined and so far no response to that post.

If we are going to put ourselves under the Ten Commandments then we are also under its curse. (Gal 3:10)

Sadly another popular teaching that leads people away from obeying God. You have it wrong, the curse is anyone who does not continue keeping God’s law- the wages of sin is death Romans 6:23 this is the curse, not obeying God. It’s amazing what people teach. Who do you think wants us to continue in sin (breaking God’s law). 1 John 3:8

But if we put ourselves under Christ we are made perfect forever. (Heb 10:14) This is the Gospel that Christ became sin for us so that we might be the righteousness of Christ in Him. This is incredibly joyful and overwhelms us with the love of God.

Jesus paid the penalty of sin, not so we can sin freely. Jesus came to show us how to live and to be our example 1 John 2:6 and died for us, so instead of sacrificing an animal, we can pray to Jesus and ask for forgiveness when we have a change in heart and repent and ask Him to help us to overcome sin through His power. Living in sin and being comfortable in sin is a dangerous place to be. Hebrews 10:26-30 Matthew 7:21-23, Rev 22:14-15

Would you not agree that keeping God's law is righteousness?

All of God’s commandments are righteous Psalms 119:174 and our version of righteousness means nothing. Too many people depend on their version of righteousness and not God’s, we are not God and when we allow God to be God and place our trust in Him and do what He ask because we trust Him, shows we have faith, which is how one is saved though faith and those who have faith uphold His law Romans 3:31. When we place our trust in our own version of right-doing this is self-works and our works can’t save us

If so then rejoice because Christ not only do we have rest in Christ but it is because he also covers everything for us. As it is written, It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

In God’s rest there is no rebellion to Him, including keeping the Sabbath commandment. It’s not wise to think we can follow the same path of disobedience as the Israelites and expect a different result, when the scriptures tell us plainly thats not the case. Hebrews 4:6 Hebrews 4:11

Jesus is our wisdom. Jesus is our righteousness. Jesus is our holiness and He is our redemption. What wondrous love is this?

True and why would someone want to disobey Him, if He is our everything.

I need to focus on Jesus every single day and I need it more and more and more!

We should worship Jesus everyday, and Jesus tells us when we keep man-made laws over the commandments of God -quoting right from the Ten one worships in vain Matthew 15:3-9. Many people want to worship on their terms instead of how God asks. It’s the exact reason why we are separated from God.

Sabbath keeping is subjective. To demonstrate this let me ask you a few questions.

Is swimming ok to do on Sabbath?
How about wading?
Do you use electrical appliances and lights on Sabbath? If so, how do you justify purchasing electricity on Sabbath?
Is it ok to listen to secular music on Sabbath? What if it is classical music?
Is scuba diving a good Sabbath afternoon activity?
Do you sleep after heavy meals on Sabbath afternoons? If so is this an inactivity God would approve of?
Do you eat in the cafeteria on the sabbath at camp meetings or religious conventions thus purchasing food on the Sabbath?
If I lived above the arctic circle, how would I keep a sabbath?

Most of these answers are found right in your bible. The purpose of the Sabbath is to have communion with God. God wants to spend time with His people on the day He set aside blessed, made holy and sanctified to do so. We cannot sanctify ourselves Eze 20:12 yet people try anyway.

Now all of these questions are subjective and yet some people would insist that their answers were the correct ones and anyone who disagreed was simply breaking the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.

Only for someone who does not understand the Sabbath or someone who doesn’t keep the Sabbath. We have clear guidelines in scripture on how to keep the Sabbath. I would go through them with you but I have a feeling I would be wasting my time. I have been addressing every one of your posts with scriptures and instead of addressing my posts you keep going on to the next thing, as if our opinions are equal to the Word of God. It’s not.

Was not Jesus telling her to not practice sin anymore, to leave her lifestyle and follow Him rather than telling her to be perfect? Are you without sin? I know that I cannot tell others that they should be perfect unless I am perfect.

well lets quote the scripture

John 8:11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

Jesus never said go now and sin a little less.

Jesus also taught we should teach each other the commandments and warns those who break the least of the commandments and teach others to break has some consequences so we need to be careful of what we teach. Matthew 5:19

Obeying Christ is the grandest thing we can do, but none of us are perfect at it.

Then why argue about obeying Him and instead ask Him to help us obey Him.

Jesus kept the commandments for us all.

Jesus kept the commandments as our example to follow 1 John 2:6 John15:10 not so we don’t have to. John 14:15

He did it perfectly and then gave us his victory. As it is written but thanks be to God, who giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Why is it that some people feel that if God gives them victory and promises them eternal life as a free gift they must still be compelled to obey him?

Wow, so Jesus gives us victory so we can be in rebellion to Him? That’s not what I get from reading His Word- how many times does God’s Word tell us to keep His commandments, it is a constant theme throughout the entire bible and one of the last scriptures in the Bible a blessing for those who gain victory over sin Rev 22:14

God does not want us to obey Him because we are compelled to do so by threat of damnation.

Of course not, He asks us to obey Him through love. Exodus 20:6 1 John 5:3 John 14:15, when you love God, you WANT to obey Him, if one thinks obeying Him is bondage, one is worshipping the wrong god. Romans 6:16

It doesn’t seem like we are going to come to any sort of agreement, so I will end it with agree to disagree and wish you the best in seeking Truth to His Word.

Thanks for the chat and God bless!

 

[Mercy Shown]

Because people are selfish and they prefer doing their will over God’s will.

Then those people do not want God. They want His things just like Lucifer does.

Joshua is a type of Christ no doubt, but still doesn’t change what Hebrews 4 is teaching us which was previously outlined and so far no response to that post.

I will not try to convince anyone against their will. All may read the passages and hear what the spirits says.

Sadly another popular teaching that leads people away from obeying God. You have it wrong, the curse is anyone who does not continue keeping God’s law- the wages of sin is death Romans 6:23 this is the curse, not obeying God. It’s amazing what people teach. Who do you think wants us to continue in sin (breaking God’s law). 1 John 3:8

I am trying to say that "For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”" Gal 3:10

That is why I am under Christ for he took the curse for me.

Jesus paid the penalty of sin, not so we can sin freely. Jesus came to show us how to live and to be our example 1 John 2:6 and died for us, so instead of sacrificing an animal, we can pray to Jesus and ask for forgiveness when we have a change in heart and repent and ask Him to help us to overcome sin through His power. Living in sin and being comfortable in sin is a dangerous place to be. Hebrews 10:26-30 Matthew 7:21-23, Rev 22:14-15

Why do you bring this up so often? If God said to you today that from now on you can do anything you please and still be saved would you then plunge headlong into sin? Is the reward of salvation the only thing holding you back from sinning? Do you really desire to sin but do not so that you will get into heaven?

All of God’s commandments are righteous Psalms 119:174 and our version of righteousness means nothing. Too many people depend on their version of righteousness and not God’s, we are not God and when we allow God to be God and place our trust in Him and do what He ask because we trust Him, shows we have faith, which is how one is saved though faith and those who have faith uphold His law Romans 3:31. When we place our trust in our own version of right-doing this is self-works and our works can’t save us

I hope to be found in Christ's righteousness and not a righteousness of my own.

In God’s rest there is no rebellion to Him, including keeping the Sabbath commandment. It’s not wise to think we can follow the same path of disobedience as the Israelites and expect a different result, when the scriptures tell us plainly thats not the case. Hebrews 4:6 Hebrews 4:11

Do you desire to rebel but do not do say in order to be saved?

True and why would someone want to disobey Him, if He is our everything.

We should worship Jesus everyday, and Jesus tells us when we keep man-made laws over the commandments of God -quoting right from the Ten one worships in vain Matthew 15:3-9. Many people want to worship on their terms instead of how God asks. It’s the exact reason why we are separated from God.

What other people want I can't control. Salvation is for the lost just as sight is for the blind. Those who have no sin need no savior.

Most of these answers are found right in your bible. The purpose of the Sabbath is to have communion with God. God wants to spend time with His people on the day He set aside blessed, made holy and sanctified to do so. We cannot sanctify ourselves Eze 20:12 yet people try anyway.

This is something I do daily throughout the day. That is the only thing that keeps me abiding in Christ. I have no day that is more spiritual than another. I rejoice daily in His grace and stand before God in Him as if I had never sinned.

Only for someone who does not understand the Sabbath or someone who doesn’t keep the Sabbath. We have clear guidelines in scripture on how to keep the Sabbath. I would go through them with you but I have a feeling I would be wasting my time. I have been addressing every one of your posts with scriptures and instead of addressing my posts you keep going on to the next thing, as if our opinions are equal to the Word of God. It’s not.

Suffice it to say, I made my point: Sabbath keeping is subjective. People have different versions of it.

I hope to share this good news with as many as will hear it. Jesus has come to set us free and if he sets us free, we will be free indeed.

well lets quote the scripture

John 8:11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

Jesus never said go now and sin a little less.

Jesus said to hate your mother and father. Do you hate your mother and father?

Jesus also taught we should teach each other the commandments and warns those who break the least of the commandments and teach others to break has some consequences so we need to be careful of what we teach. Matthew 5:19

The Gospel is not about breaking God's law, it is about establishing it. If God's law could be broken or ignored then Christ would not have had to die. The Gospel is hope for those who are hopeless, a balm in Gilead.

Then why argue about obeying Him and instead ask Him to help us obey Him.

I have never argued about obeying our Lord. You inserted that meaning into what I wrote.

Jesus kept the commandments as our example to follow 1 John 2:6 John15:10 not so we don’t have to. John 14:15

Wow, so Jesus gives us victory so we can be in rebellion to Him?

See, here is an example of your additions to what I have said. But this is not what I have ever said. God gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

That’s not what I get from reading His Word- how many times does God’s Word tell us to keep His commandments, it is a constant theme throughout the entire bible and one of the last scriptures in the Bible a blessing for those who gain victory over sin Rev 22:14

How is keeping what He commands us to do and having the victory given to us mutually exclusive? Once the victory is given to me, why should I obey Him then? What could motivate obedience to my Lord apart from fear of damnation? Think about that for a while. Somehow you seem to be thinking that by God giving me the victory I will quickly fall into sin since I no longer have the threat of annihilation hanging over my head.

My friend, what I have to share is fantastic news for all who are being called for his purpose. We are loved, we are saved and we are secure. The more we see how deficit we were the greater is our love for the one who bore our deficit and died our eternal death that we might have his reward. In giving us the victory He has changed the paradigm from fear of punishment to love and gratitude.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

How is keeping what He commands us to do and having the victory given to us mutually exclusive? Once the victory is given to me, why should I obey Him then? What could motivate obedience to my Lord apart from fear of damnation? Think about that for a while.

I do not need to think about it for a second. Keeping God’s commandments is not kept to be saved, it is because Jesus changes us from the inside out and it is an outward expression that we have been changed. If you love Him, you are going to want to keep and continue to keep His commandments. It is a fruit of a saved person Rev 14:12, not because of fear of death, but because of love to God.1 John 5:3 We should not want to sin because we love Jesus and treasure the sacrifice He made for. Jesus longs for us not to sin and I can only imagine how much pain it causes Him to see His people choose to do their own thing, over obeying Him after everything He has done for us.

I know its a popular teaching that once you come to Jesus thats all thats needed and initially it is, but as we grow spiritually we should want to obey Him because we are filled with love for Him, there is no truth in that we can live the life we want outside of Christ and Jesus will still save us, but we have free will to ignore any scripture we want to. It’s impossible to be in Christ and disobey His laws. Romans 8:4-8

Jesus in His own Words rebukes this teaching. Jesus warns us because He loves us, like a mother who tells their child not to touch a hot stove.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ (believers) shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

How does Jesus know us according to the Bible?

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

And what does it say about those who claim they to know Him, but do not keep His commandments

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

There is a correlation to this found in Rev 22:14-15

So many people believe they can bypass God’s commandments and believe that it is doing the will of God, despite clear scripture stating otherwise Psalms 40:8, Hebrews 8:10, Jer 31:33, 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6, John 15:10 Rev 14:12, Rev 22:14 1 Cor 7:19 but Jesus warns us with His own Words what happens to those who do these things at His return. It is not to scare us to obey, it is so one can examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith and make adjustments through the power of Jesus Christ John 14:15-18 so we are living according to the way we testify that Jesus controls our heart and not the “other spirit” who deceives the whole world. We have two choices Romans 6:16 there are two roads and we decide the path based on our choices…Matthew 7:13-14

 

[Mercy Shown]

I do not need to think about it for a second. Keeping God’s commandments is not kept to be saved, it is because Jesus changes us from the inside out and it is an outward expression that we have been changed. If you love Him, you are going to want to keep and continue to keep His commandments. It is a fruit of a saved person Rev 14:12, not because of fear of death, but because of love to God.1 John 5:3 We should not want to sin because we love Jesus and treasure the sacrifice He made for. Jesus longs for us not to sin and I can only imagine how much pain it causes Him to see His people choose to do their own thing, over obeying Him after everything He has done for us.

I know its a popular teaching that once you come to Jesus thats all thats needed and initially it is, but as we grow spiritually we should want to obey Him because we are filled with love for Him, there is no truth in that we can live the life we want outside of Christ and Jesus will still save us, but we have free will to ignore any scripture we want to. It’s impossible to be in Christ and disobey His laws. Romans 8:4-8

Jesus in His own Words rebukes this teaching. Jesus warns us because He loves us, like a mother who tells their child not to touch a hot stove.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ (believers) shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

How does Jesus know us according to the Bible?

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

And what does it say about those who claim they to know Him, but do not keep His commandments

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

There is a correlation to this found in Rev 22:14-15

So many people believe they can bypass God’s commandments and believe that it is doing the will of God, despite clear scripture stating otherwise Psalms 40:8, Hebrews 8:10, Jer 31:33, 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6, John 15:10 Rev 14:12, Rev 22:14 1 Cor 7:19 but Jesus warns us with His own Words what happens to those who do these things at His return. It is not to scare us to obey, it is so one can examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith and make adjustments through the power of Jesus Christ John 14:15-18 so we are living according to the way we testify that Jesus controls our heart and not the “other spirit” who deceives the whole world. We have two choices Romans 6:16 there are two roads and we decide the path based on our choices…Matthew 7:13-14

You believe as I do. We obey out of love because He saved us. It is a beautiful message that is ours to give. As for "other people" that is between them and God. If "other people" do not comport with our religious sensibilities it is not up to us to correct them or even judge them. All we can do is shed God's love abroad and pray for others. Praise God From Whom All Blessing Flow.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You believe as I do. We obey out of love because He saved us. It is a beautiful message that is ours to give. As for "other people" that is between them and God. If "other people" do not comport with our religious sensibilities it is not up to us to correct them or even judge them. All we can do is shed God's love abroad and pray for others. Praise God From Whom All Blessing Flow.

Considering we have been debating if we are to keep God’s commandments the way He wrote them, I do not think we believe the same thing. Jesus in His own words tells us to teach each other the commandments Mat 5:19 but judging should always be left to God.

Anyway appreciate the conversation and wish you much love and happiness.

God bless!