The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

Albion

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Ok, when the Lutheran church claims that baptism is necessary for salvation,
I don't believe that it does, but I'll continue reading.

they appeal to Scripture as having the final say or authority. When the Baptist church claims that baptism is necessary for salvation but for believers only, they appeal to Scripture as having the final say or authority.
Yes, but nothing in that means that Scripture is not the final word. It simply shows that the churches differ on how to interpret--just like the Catholic churches disagree on how to interpret Sacred Tradition (as my example in the previous post demonstrated).

So the question remains, who has the correct understanding, and why?
That wasn't the question.

The question was about which authority is to be looked to for the answers.
 
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redleghunter

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fhansen

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I don't believe that it does, but I'll continue reading.


Yes, but nothing in that means that Scripture is not the final word. It simply shows that the churches differ on how to interpret--just like the Catholic churches disagree on how to interpret Sacred Tradition (as my example in the previous post demonstrated).


That wasn't the question.

The question was about which authority is to be looked to for the answers.
The question of the OP is whether or not Scripture alone is sufficient as having that authority. And I maintain that we're not really dealing with Scripture's authority, first of all, as if
God were with us speaking clearly and directly anytime one of us reads His Word, but that the authority actually becomes the reader, themselves, with no sure way of knowing that his interpretation is better than another's when conflict arises. So, is there one interpreter of revelation that has correct understanding for those who ultimately base their beliefs on Scripture? Is it the JWs, perhaps, who have plausible enough Scripture-based arguments for some of their beliefs, at least?
 
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Albion

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The question of the OP is whether or not Scripture alone is sufficient as having that authority.

All right, but it definitely is not "who has the correct understanding, and why?''

And I maintain that we're not really dealing with Scripture's authority, first of all, as if
God were with us speaking clearly and directly anytime one of us reads His Word, but that the authority actually becomes the reader, themselves, with no sure way of knowing that his interpretation is better than another's when conflict arises.
You can say that, but it is also invalid. I have explained why that is so. In short, no matter what we turn to for the answer, no matter what we consider to be the authority, people will disagree on the meaning. So we have God's word in Scripture--almost every church agrees to that--and people disagree about the meaning of some passages and some terms. That's right.

But what do you offer instead? Well, your church says to follow a manmade concept called Holy Tradition or Sacred Tradition and guess what? All the churches that do so are in disagreement with each other on what that authority tells them!

IOW, your favorite criticism of Sola Scriptura applies also to the alternative that some churches, including your own, follow. So how is that an improvement??
 
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fhansen

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All right, but it definitely is not "who has the correct understanding, and why?''
Well, it sort of is. Because if using Scripture as the final rule of faith cannot resolve controversies, and if Spirit-led people don't necessarily agree as well, then where do we find the authority here on earth to settle such matters? As I've written in the past, many of the disagreements among SS adherents were never even questions in the past-because the church in the east and the west have always believed and practiced Christianity a certain way.
You can say that, but it is also invalid. I have explained why that is so. In short, no matter what we turn to for the answer, no matter what we consider to be the authority, people will disagree on the meaning. So we have God's word in Scripture--almost every church agrees to that--and people disagree about the meaning of some passages and some terms. That's right.
And Scripture isn't of much value if we don't understand what it means to tell us-and the more we understand God's revelation the better, of course. Churches and denominations agree internally, with their creeds, catechisms, confessions, etc, just as an individual agrees with himself. The question is, simply, who has it right?
But what do you offer instead? Well, your church says to follow a manmade concept called Holy Tradition or Sacred Tradition and guess what? All the churches that do so are in disagreement with each other on what that authority tells them!
Some people say the bible is man-made; it's for each of us to determine whether and how God has spoken and continues to speak to us. And, again, I'll submit that the eastern and western ancient Churches are far more in line with each other on doctrine than Protestants are with either church, and in many cases with each other. Going by Scripture alone, the abandonment of the ancient liturgies, of the priesthood, of the Eucharist as being the central focus of every service, and a host of other innovations that began shortly after the beginning of the Reformation with new ones continuing to arise thereafter are not at all implausible; even today's Prosperity and Oneness doctrines along with superstar evangelicals spewing much nonsense such as Benny Hinn (at least in his prior incarnation) et al, as well as JWs, even, are natural enough quasi-offsprings of SS.

With Sola Scriptura anyone has the right to continue on with the Reformer's tradition of using Scripture, rather than the Church, itself, as being the final authority, with new spin-offs resulting. Who can say they're wrong, with any designated enforcing authority, at least? Even when a dissenting sect spins off of the RCC today, such as the SSPX, for example, the dissenters likewise must first establish, in their minds, that the magisterium is teaching error; they must deny the authority of the Church, IOW. In their case they don't appeal to Scripture but rather to Tradition, but the effect is the same. And the Church claims the right to label their beliefs as heretical, or schismatic.
, your favorite criticism of Sola Scriptura applies also to the alternative that some churches, including your own, follow. So how is that an improvement??
The ancient Churches have history, a continuous lived experience since reception of the faith, on their side.
 
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Albion

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Well, it sort of is. Because if using Scripture as the final rule of faith cannot resolve controversies, and if Spirit-led people don't necessarily agree as well, then where do we find the authority here on earth to settle such matters?
According to your own standards, it would have to be a source or authority about which there was no disagreement, no diversity of interpretations, no division of opinion about what it was revealing. As I have shown before, that cannot be Sacred Tradition...and it cannot be the "authority" of any particular church or church leaders.

As I've written in the past, many of the disagreements among SS adherents were never even questions in the past-because the church in the east and the west have always believed and practiced Christianity a certain way.
...a claim that is of course untrue. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of church history knows that it is false.

So you are stuck with a patently incorrect, provably false statement there, or you need to come up with some other authority about which there never has been and is not currently any disagreement.
 
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Swag365

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Albion

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Well that is easily proven false because our Lord Jesus is also an infalliable authority.
And if God (Jesus is God) reveals his will and intentions to mankind through inspiring the writers of the Bible books...

...doesn't that make the Bible authoritative??
 
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Swag365

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And if God (Jesus is God) reveals his will and intentions to mankind through inspiring the writers of the Bible books...

...doesn't that make the Bible authoritative??
Sacred Scripture is most certainly authoritative, yes.
 
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Swag365

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and that's because of its author, God himself. So it is an ultimate authority for doctrine.
Yes, Sacred Scripture is an ultimate authority for doctrine. But Sacred Scripture is not the sole ultimate authority for doctrine. Our blessed Lord Jesus is also an ultimate authority for doctrine.
 
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Albion

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Yes, Sacred Scripture is an ultimate authority for doctrine. But Sacred Scripture is not the sole ultimate authority for doctrine. Our blessed Lord Jesus is also an ultimate authority for doctrine.
They are telling us the same thing--and it is done by means of inspired writings! Let's not try to separate the author from the instructions.
 
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Swag365

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They are telling us the same thing
No, there is no basis to believe that everything our Lord taught is contained in Sacred Scripture. Sacred Scripture itself does not make this claim.

Let's not try to separate the author from the instructions.
No, God and Sacred Scripture are not the same. We pray to God. We do not pray to Sacred Scripture. They are separate. Obviously, God is the author of Sacred Scripture.
 
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Albion

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No, there is no basis to believe that everything our Lord taught is contained in Sacred Scripture.


Okay then. Where is the rest of it? It's not going to be very authoritative and settle any doctrinal disputes if we don't have it.
 
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redleghunter

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Sacred Scripture is most certainly authoritative, yes.
It’s only as authoritative as your magisterium makes it. And the magisterium claims its authority from the Scriptures. Nice arrangement there.
 
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