The Rich Merchants in the True Structuring of the Revelation

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, here is the text. You are truncating the text, leaving out the "is" .

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Revelation 17:8b... and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Your Shibboleth is the detail that the eighth king is the revived fifth one, who “was” before the sixth.

Verse 10 expresses the “past” that five kings have fallen and the “present” that the sixth king “is.” And then a “future” time when the seventh king will live only briefly.

And then verse 11 returns to the “present” and states the scarlet beast “was, and is not” and that he is the eighth. From the present time in John’s vision, which is the time of the sixth king, the scarlet beast “was, and is not,” which proves the eighth king is one of the five that have fallen. He is the revived fifth king.

Revelation 17:11 says the eighth “is of the seven;” it doesn’t say he “was the seventh,” which is what you are forcing it to say. Again, your Shibboleth is the detail that the eighth king is the revived fifth one, who “was” before the sixth.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Yes ancient Israel was described as that. However, in our time all the religions of the world are coming under a global religion.

And what I've documented is that Protestantism led it by secularizing society and enriching the merchants. That makes them Babylon the harlot.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

So please show me how the Vatican is controlling all religions. Remember the harlot is a world`s religion.

That's what happens when one neglects history. The papacy legitimized princes and kings for 1260 years until the Protestants suffered her a deadly wound by secularizing society and enriching the merchants and the kings of the earth.

 

[Marilyn C]

But only the fallen Church can be described as "becoming" “the habitation of devils.”

Satan has sway over the whole world system. (1 John 5: 19)

 

[Marilyn C]

And what I've documented is that Protestantism led it by secularizing society and enriching the merchants.

Only a part of the whole world`s religion.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Only a part of the whole world`s religion.

You're just trying to evade the OP. The object was to expose the identity of the rich merchants and their association with the harlot. Since they are antagonists when Christ returns, the Protestants secularizing society to enrich the merchants fulfills both.

 

[Douggg]

Verse 10 expresses the “past” that five kings have fallen and the “present” that the sixth king “is.” And then a “future” time when the seventh king will live only briefly.

But that is not all it says about the seventh king. It says must continue a short space.

And then verse 11 returns to the “present” and states the scarlet beast “was, and is not” and that he is the eighth. From the present time in John’s vision, which is the time of the sixth king, the scarlet beast “was, and is not,” which proves the eighth king is one of the five that have fallen. He is the revived fifth king.

First of all, verse 11 does not return to the "present". There would no reason to mention king 7 if that were the case.

The scarlet beast is not the eighth king. The eighth king is not the fifth king, either. Who are you claiming is the fifth king ?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

But that is not all it says about the seventh king. It says must continue a short space.


First of all, verse 11 does not return to the "present". There would no reason to mention king 7 if that were the case.

The scarlet beast is not the eighth king. The eighth king is not the fifth king, either. Who are you claiming is the fifth king ?

That funny. John is shown the scarlet beast and, in verse 8, is told it "was, and is not." And later, he's told the sixth king "is," meaning the beast preceded the sixth.

Again, your Shibboleth is the detail that the eighth king is the revived fifth one, who “was” before the sixth.

Again, you still haven’t explained how a future leader of the EU lived before Claudius. Revelation 17:9-10 says the eighth head “was” before the sixth, which you say is Claudius. Again, how does the future head of the EU come before the emperor Claudius of ancient times?

 

[Douggg]

@Jerryhuarta, who do you claim is the 5th king ?

 

[3 Resurrections]

13:2 says, “the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority,” referring to the sea beast. The dragon’s antecedent is the red dragon in 12 who stood ready to devour the “man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.” Obviously, the dragon illustrates pagan Rome.

Scripture never equates the Dragon character with being pagan Rome. Revelation 12:9 equates the cast out Dragon with "that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan...". Satan gave his own throne in the city of Pergamos to the Sea Beast, along with power and great authority, which the ancient Roman empire certainly exercised to the max in conquest of the nations of the known world.

The seven churches are prophetic as well as historical.

I assume you mean that the 7 churches of Revelation should be connected with epochs of church history throughout the millennia since Revelation was written. This idea violates the time limitations which John put upon his own writing. John's introduction to the book as well as his concluding comments (Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:10) tell us that any written prophecies of the future in Revelation were "at hand", which means they were to be fulfilled in John's days. They were not going to be "prolonged" into "times that are far off", as God Himself once defined any "at hand" prophecies in Ezekiel 12:23-28.

The ten kings are the ten toes in Daniel 2 and horns upon the fourth beast, Rome, in 7. History affirms the Germanic kings conquered Rome. Chapter 13 represents the risen ten kings from Daniel, illustrated as having crowns on their heads. This represents papal feudal times

That is impossible for the 10 crowned horns of Revelation 13's Sea Beast to be connected with papal feudal times. That is because the Land Beast of Revelation 13 was working in support of and in the very eyesight of that Sea Beast of Revelation 13. These were contemporaries of each other at this point in Revelation 13.

The two-horned Land Beast of Revelation 13 that spoke deceptively like a Dragon was the Jewish religious leadership of the first century. The Sadducee and Pharisee power structure composed those two horns, and the "lamb" imagery of the two horns was indicative of the temple sacrifices. Both Pharisees and Sadducees spoke lies like the Dragon. Christ had said that they were the "children of the devil" that spoke lies just like their Father the Devil. The "fire from heaven" wonder that the Land Beast performed was the role of the priests who had charge of the fire of God's altar in the Temple. And those wonders were done in the eyesight of the Sea Beast's soldiers of the Roman garrison in Jerusalem which visually could overlook the Temple activities going on across from them.

That Land Beast forced its own people and those who came to worship in Israel's temple to give homage to Rome via the required Tyrian shekel which was the only coin the priesthood allowed for buying and selling sacrificial items in the temple. That coin had inscriptions and images abominable to God and which gave homage to Rome and its pagan demi-gods.

But that Tyrian shekel copy minted in Jerusalem ceased to be required by the Land Beast when the AD 66 Zealot rebellion broke out. This puts a time limit of AD 66 on when the Land Beast was operating in conjunction and support of the Roman Sea Beast and requiring that "mark" giving homage to the Roman Sea Beast. All this has nothing to do with papal feudal times.

We know the “seven kings” are also beasts from chapter 17.

No, scripture never says that all the seven kings of Revelation 17 are Beasts. It says that only the single eighth "king" also was identified as being the Scarlet Beast as well as a "king". This dual identity would become a reality when the Scarlet Beast arose to existence once more, which was "about to" take place in John's immediate future (Revelation 17:8). This verse also said that once the Scarlet Beast arose to existence once more, that it was also "about to" go into destruction soon after that. This does not allow for the eighth "king" as leader of the Scarlet Beast's revived existence to have lasted for very long in John's days. That would dismiss the possibility of the Scarlet Beast having anything to do with the eventual fall of Rome or the rise of the Papacy, since the Scarlet Beast led by the eighth "king" would have gone into destruction long before that.

 

[Marilyn C]

You're just trying to evade the OP. The object was to expose the identity of the rich merchants and their association with the harlot. Since they are antagonists when Christ returns, the Protestants secularizing society to enrich the merchants fulfills both.

I was just answering the latest posts.

So, who are the rich merchants - the multinationals, and global businesses.

 

[Douggg]

That's what happens when one neglects history. The papacy legitimized princes and kings for 1260 years until the Protestants suffered her a deadly wound by secularizing society and enriching the merchants and the kings of the earth.

The 1260 days in Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6 are days not years.

 

[Douggg]

John is shown the scarlet beast and, in verse 8, is told it "was, and is not." And later, he's told the sixth king "is," meaning the beast preceded the sixth.

Jerry, you are not grasping that the scarlet colored beast is Satan. And that Revelation 17:8 is a mystery about Satan - that old serpent (Revelation 12:9).

And you have no concept of why in Revelation 17, 12, 13 - that the crowns on the three beasts John saw with 7 heads and 10 horns change. And what those changes mean.

Jerry, none of the heads on the Revelation 17 beast are mortally wounded - to later be healed. King 7 does not come to power until Revelation 12, when the 7 heads have crowns - indicating that the prophecy of the seven kings is complete - with 7 years left.

In Revelation 13, with 42 months left, the 7 heads no longer have crowns because king 7 will have been mortally wounded, ending the prophecy of the seven kings. And king 7 recovers to become the beast - king 8.

king 7 at point - was, is not, yet is - even is the beast.

Here is a graphic I made that addresses all of those issues.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

I was just answering the latest posts.

So, who are the rich merchants - the multinationals, and global businesses.

Read Michael Tigar's book, Law and the Rise of Capitalism, and it will enlighten you about the modern rise of the merchants.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

@Jerryhuarta, who do you claim is the 5th king ?

Your argument dismisses the evidence in Daniel that all the satanic world empires, the kingdoms that stand against God, are illustrated as beasts. It follows that the seven kings are the five beasts in Daniel 7 (the papacy is the fifth), continued in Revelation with the sea beast as the little horn, making the two-horned beast the sixth king, and the seventh the image. In the historicist view, we have order and agreement with Daniel; what we have in preterism and futurism is confusion and conflict with Daniel.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Scripture never equates the Dragon character with being pagan Rome. Revelation 12:9 equates the cast out Dragon with "that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan...". Satan gave his own throne in the city of Pergamos to the Sea Beast, along with power and great authority, which the ancient Roman empire certainly exercised to the max in conquest of the nations of the known world.


I assume you mean that the 7 churches of Revelation should be connected with epochs of church history throughout the millennia since Revelation was written. This idea violates the time limitations which John put upon his own writing. John's introduction to the book as well as his concluding comments (Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:10) tell us that any written prophecies of the future in Revelation were "at hand", which means they were to be fulfilled in John's days. They were not going to be "prolonged" into "times that are far off", as God Himself once defined any "at hand" prophecies in Ezekiel 12:23-28.

That is impossible for the 10 crowned horns of Revelation 13's Sea Beast to be connected with papal feudal times. That is because the Land Beast of Revelation 13 was working in support of and in the very eyesight of that Sea Beast of Revelation 13. These were contemporaries of each other at this point in Revelation 13.

The two-horned Land Beast of Revelation 13 that spoke deceptively like a Dragon was the Jewish religious leadership of the first century. The Sadducee and Pharisee power structure composed those two horns, and the "lamb" imagery of the two horns was indicative of the temple sacrifices. Both Pharisees and Sadducees spoke lies like the Dragon. Christ had said that they were the "children of the devil" that spoke lies just like their Father the Devil. The "fire from heaven" wonder that the Land Beast performed was the role of the priests who had charge of the fire of God's altar in the Temple. And those wonders were done in the eyesight of the Sea Beast's soldiers of the Roman garrison in Jerusalem which visually could overlook the Temple activities going on across from them.

That Land Beast forced its own people and those who came to worship in Israel's temple to give homage to Rome via the required Tyrian shekel which was the only coin the priesthood allowed for buying and selling sacrificial items in the temple. That coin had inscriptions and images abominable to God and which gave homage to Rome and its pagan demi-gods.

But that Tyrian shekel copy minted in Jerusalem ceased to be required by the Land Beast when the AD 66 Zealot rebellion broke out. This puts a time limit of AD 66 on when the Land Beast was operating in conjunction and support of the Roman Sea Beast and requiring that "mark" giving homage to the Roman Sea Beast. All this has nothing to do with papal feudal times.

No, scripture never says that all the seven kings of Revelation 17 are Beasts. It says that only the single eighth "king" also was identified as being the Scarlet Beast as well as a "king". This dual identity would become a reality when the Scarlet Beast arose to existence once more, which was "about to" take place in John's immediate future (Revelation 17:8). This verse also said that once the Scarlet Beast arose to existence once more, that it was also "about to" go into destruction soon after that. This does not allow for the eighth "king" as leader of the Scarlet Beast's revived existence to have lasted for very long in John's days. That would dismiss the possibility of the Scarlet Beast having anything to do with the eventual fall of Rome or the rise of the Papacy, since the Scarlet Beast led by the eighth "king" would have gone into destruction long before that.

As you conceded, Satan uses the beasts to his ends. It was Daniel’s fourth beast that ruled Herod, and he was the one that tried to devour the “man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.” Obviously, the dragon illustrates pagan Rome. You simply can’t surmount the historical and scriptural evidence.

Regarding your argument against the prophetic churches, preterism violates imminence as a hermeneutic. The prophets conflated imminent events with distant ones without disclosure of the protracted time in between to promote vigilance and thwart lethargy, which is the object of the Olivet Discourse verses 42-51 of Matthew. The same goes with the temporal markers in Revelation.

As to the two-horned beast, you violate 17:9-11 which tells us the beasts are consecutive powers, not contemporaneous ones. The historicist interpretation stands on the consecutive order of the beast upheld in 17:9-11, and your preterist one falls on it.

As to the seven kings, your argument dismisses the evidence in Daniel that all the satanic world empires, the kingdoms that stand against God, are illustrated as beasts. It follows that the seven kings are the five beasts in Daniel 7 (the papacy being the fifth), continued in Revelation with the sea beast as the little horn, making the two-horned beast the sixth, and the seventh the image. In the historicist view, we have order and agreement with Daniel; what we have in preterism and futurism is confusion and conflict with Daniel.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

The 1260 days in Revelation 11:3 and Revelation 12:6 are days not years.

Such a view results in confusion and disagreement with scripture.

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Jerry, you are not grasping that the scarlet colored beast is Satan. And that Revelation 17:8 is a mystery about Satan - that old serpent (Revelation 12:9).

And you have no concept of why in Revelation 17, 12, 13 - that the crowns on the three beasts John saw with 7 heads and 10 horns change. And what those changes mean.

Jerry, none of the heads on the Revelation 17 beast are mortally wounded - to later be healed. King 7 does not come to power until Revelation 12, when the 7 heads have crowns - indicating that the prophecy of the seven kings is complete - with 7 years left.

In Revelation 13, with 42 months left, the 7 heads no longer have crowns because king 7 will have been mortally wounded, ending the prophecy of the seven kings. And king 7 recovers to become the beast - king 8.

king 7 at point - was, is not, yet is - even is the beast.

Here is a graphic I made that addresses all of those issues.




View attachment 331751

The historicist's concept is sound and historical, while the futurist and preterist are not. History confirms that the Germanic kings caused the fall of the Roman empire; they are the ten kings in Daniel 7:24. The Roman Empire, the fourth beast in Daniel, is illustrated as the power that “stood before the woman” who delivered the “man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron,” in chapter 12. Futurism cannot surmount this interpretation. The red dragon represents the Roman empire to anyone truly competent in history. Revelation 12 represents the time before the rise of ten kings in Daniel 7:24, which is why they are without crowns.

Chapter 13 represents the risen ten kings from Daniel, illustrated as having crowns on their heads. They are the ten toes in Daniel 2, also. Chapter 13 also represents the time when the beast from the sea rises, which meets all the criteria of the little horn in Daniel because it is the little horn, the papacy. The papacy legitimizes the kings of the Germanic tribes, which history affirms. Again, futurism cannot surmount this interpretation.

Then from a historicist’s lens, the missing crowns in chapter 17 represent the time when the power of the papacy is broken by the Protestants; the papacy “was, and is not.” The papacy was no longer to legitimize the princes and kings in the West because they were now being legitimized by the Protestants, who enriched the kings and the merchants.

 

[Douggg]

History confirms that the Germanic kings caused the fall of the Roman empire; they are the ten kings in Daniel 7:24.

No, the ten kings have their crowns in Revelation 13 with 42 months left (Revelation 13:5) - to rule with the beast.

 

[Douggg]

Such a view results in confusion and disagreement with scripture.

The confusion is when people start changing the 1260 days into 1260 years.