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Featured THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS (Luke 16) IS NOT A PARABLE

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Gold fish, May 21, 2020.

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  1. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    You know what is ridiculous?????

    People who are calling Christ their Lord and Saviour, then making up theology which sounds good to them, WHICH IS NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE that the Lord Jesus wrote.

    IF YOU or anyone else is going to claim as a Christian that those post sinners who reject Christ and are cast into the Lake of Fire, will then in the end be saved and removed from the Lake of Fire, THEN THOSE WORDS SHOULD BE FOUND IN THE BOOK CHRIST WROTE!!!!!

    You I am sure reject the Catholic theology of the Sinlessness of MAry. WHY???

    Because it is not found in the Bible so it is heresy.

    I am sure that you reject the JW'S teaching that Jesus IS NOT God in the flesh. WHY?????

    Because it is not in the Bible.

    I am sure that as a Christian you do not accept the Mormons teaching of a Father and Mother God. WHY??????

    Because it is not in the Bible.

    Now then, IF YOU are going to be a Universalist and claim the ALL in the Lake of Fire will be saved, even Satan himself, THEN YOU MUST BE PREPARED TO PROVE THAT FROM THE WORDS OF THE BIBLE.
     
  2. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    A fallacy is not an opinion, it's an error reasoning. Your posts contains them. That is fact, not opinion.
     
  3. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    NOT SO! I am not presuming anything at all. I am flat out telling YOU ALL that there is NO BIBLE Scriptures that validate that everyone in the end will be saved and all the people in the lake of Fire will be saved and removed.

    THAT IS THE FACT brother!

    You have fallen in love with an idea that removing the torments of hell from your conscious mind. You are welcome to do that BUT it does not in any way mean that those in the Lake of Fire will not be in torments forever and ever and ever and ever and ever!

    As I have said many times......I really wish that you were correct.

    I know many friends and family who have died in their sins and are in the torments of Hell today. I wish with all my heart that they would be saved and removed from the LOF......BUT there are NO Scriptures that say that....or even suggest that.

    There is NO SECOND CHANCE after death my friend, not according to the Bible.

    Hebrews 9:27.....
    Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
     
  4. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    There is NO Scripture that says ALL MANKIND WILL BE REMOVED from the LOF.

    Why not post those scriptures that say they will my friend...………..oops I know, there are NONE!
    "Finelinen" has already said what I and everyone else who read the Bible know.....
    "THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! HE SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".
     
  5. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I was just being nice and not using the words, False Teaching or Heresy.

    I am not giving opinions at all. That is why I post Bible Scriptures which I BELIEVE and not posting thoughts, wishes and "Opinions".
     
  6. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    You really wish that then why don't you listen when presented with evidence that shows plainly that people will not burn in the Lake of Fire eternally?
     
  7. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    And, you believe that you are correctly understanding those passages. Maybe you're not.
     
  8. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Really? Evan after @FineLinen said...……..
    "THERE ARE NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SUPPORT THE UNIVERSALISTS THEOLOGY!!!! HE SAYS THAT THERE WILL BE NO SALVATION FROM ANYONE WHO IS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE".

    PLEASE post the evidence you speak of where the words can be seen and read...…………"AND THOSE WHO WERE CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE ACCEPTED CHRIST AND WERE REMOVED FROM THE LAKE OF FIRE".

    Honestly.....all of you guys keep talking and talking but you never answer that question except "finelinen".

    If the Bible plainly says that people will not burn in the Lake of Fire, then POST THE DADGUMMED BIBLE SCRIPTURES THAT SAY SO!

    By the way...…..To say that Everyone will be reconciled" IS NOT SAYING THAT THOSE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE WILL BE SAVED AND THEN REMOVED.
     
  9. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Yes I actually do Butch. I have believed them and written about them and taught them now for 50 years.
     
  10. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The ubiquitous out-of-context proof text. This vs. is often quoted as "proof" that all mankind will be saved.
    UR-ites evidently do not know what salted with fire means. "Salting" does not make an unacceptable sacrifice acceptable to God. The sacrifice must be clean and acceptable before it is salted.

    Exodus 30:35
    35 and make a fragrant blend of incense, the work of a perfumer. It is to be salted and pure and sacred.
    Leviticus 2:12-13
    12 You may bring them to the LORD as an offering of the firstfruits, but they are not to be offered on the altar as a pleasing aroma.
    13 Season all your grain offerings with salt. Do not leave the salt of the covenant of your God out of your grain offerings; add salt to all your offerings.
    Numbers 18:19
    19 Whatever is set aside from the holy offerings the Israelites present to the LORD I give to you and your sons and daughters as your perpetual share. It is an everlasting covenant of salt before the LORD for both you and your offspring."
    Thus "in context" "salted with fire" Mark 9:49 refers only to the "everyone [who is righteous.] will be salted with fire."
     
  11. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I haven't answered those questions because I don't hold that point of view.

    Jesus indicates that the wicked will be cast into Gehenna where the fire is not quenched and the worm does, not die. John indicates that the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Either there are two different places where the wicked go, one of them is wrong, or the Lake of Fire and Gehenna are the same place. Since we know that neither is wrong and that there aren't two places where the wicked go that leaves us with the conclusion that the Lake of Fire and Gehenna are the same place. Jesus calls the place Gehenna. His description of it comes from Isaiah 66.

    42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
    43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:1
    44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mk. 9:42-44 KJV)

    22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
    23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.1
    24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.(Isa. 66:22-1:1 KJV)

    Notice what is burning in this place that Jesus calls Gehenna. It is carcasses, dead bodies. It is not living soul or living spirits. It is dead bodies. Dead bodies are what will burn in the Lake of Fire.

    Will this Gehenna burn forever? Let's ask Jeremiah.

    38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
    39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
    40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:38-40 KJV)

    The who valley of dead bodies and ashes, again, not living souls or spirits, dead bodies and ashes. This valley shall be made holy to the LORD. So, the valley where these bodies are burned will one day be made holy to the LORD. It's not going to burn forever.
     
  12. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    But you understanding of them doesn't fit with Scripture. God said, the soul that sins shall die. He didn't say the soul that sins shall be tormented in fire for eternity.
     
  13. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    And isn't that the very same thing I said to you when you asked why I did not address some of your posts?????????????

    Will Gehenna burn forever? What not ask God?

    Jesus used Gehenna as an illustration of what hell would be like (Matthew 10:28; Mark 9:47–48) because it served as a place to discard trash and teamed with burning sewage, flesh, and garbage. Its foul smell quickly repelled any visitors. Its hideous and vile sight complete with maggots and other death-debris, coupled with its history as a place of human sacrifice and false-god worship, gave it a true-life picture of torment.

    The literal word refers to a geographic location. Gehenna is the Greek form of the Hebrew word ge-hinnom, or the "Valley of the Son of Hinnom." This valley, south of Jerusalem, served as a place where Israelites once sacrificed their children to the Canaanite god Molech (2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31; 19:2–6). In Isaiah 30:33 we see this same place called "Tophet" (translated as "a burning place" in the ESV).

    God's hatred of Molech and the worship practices associated with him, compelled God to warn the Israelites that judgment would come upon them if they turned their attentions and worship to the false god (Leviticus 18:20). God said that the valley would no longer be called "Tophet" or the "Valley of the Son of Hinnom," but "the Valley of Slaughter" (Jeremiah 7; 19).
    Gehenna – What is it?
     
  14. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    No, I asked you to address what I posted in reply to your posts.

    Yes, Gehenna is the valley of the son of Hinnom. I don't know about the trash dump theory. From what I understand that idea came about around 800 AD. However, that's not important. What is important is that Jeremiah tells us that this valley will one day be made holy to the LORD. It's not going to burn forever and what is burning in it is dead bodies, not souls or spirit..
     
  15. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. That is what I would say of your understand or lack there of.

    John Gill says...…….
    "the soul that continues in sin, without repentance towards God, and faith in Christ, shall die the second death; shall be separated from the presence of God, and endure his wrath to all eternity: or the meaning is, that a person that is guilty of sins, and continues in them, shall personally suffer; he shall endure one calamity or another, as the famine, sword, pestilence, or be carried into captivity, which is the death all along spoken of in this chapter; the Lord will exercise no patience towards him, or defer punishment to a future generation, his offspring; but shall immediately execute it upon himself.

    I think that I shall choose his explanation over yours my friend.
     
  16. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    As intelligent as you are, I should not have to be telling you that the
    word “gehenna” is associated with burning. It is a word which Jesus used this ten times in the New Testament to draw attention to to what HELL would be like. If the people THEN wanted to know what hell was going to be like......
    LOOK there in the valley of Gehenna and you will see!!!!!

    Gehenna means valley of Hinnom. The Hinnom Valley in Jerusalem is basically a deep, fine narrow valley on the south end of Jerusalem. In this valley, the Israelites worshipped the pagan god Molech by offering human sacrifices. They burned their own children alive by placing the baby on the fiery hot hands of the statue while the pagan priests beat the drums to cover up the screams of the baby as it was being incinerated. They did that so that they would have good crops. It was Idol worship!

    Historically, it has been written that in order for the child sacrifice to be accepted by Molech, the parents had to stand motionless – and emotionless – while the child was burned to death.
     
  17. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    BUT that place WAS NOT HELL! It was a place which was used as an example of what the real hell will be like and what bothers me more than anything is that I am having to explain that to you......Really.

    What place on the earth will NOT be a holy place eventually????
     
  18. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    That is what a lot of folks on this side of the pond have been taught, that Isa and Jer. were referring to the valley of Hinnom or Ge Hinnom, But look at the words I highlighted. "the brook Kidron" is in the Kidron valley not the valley of Hinnom.
    …..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, translated hades and gehenna in the LXX and NT.
    …..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
    [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
    = = = = = = = = = =
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    …..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Gehinnom
    = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
    "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
    Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
     
  19. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Well, it should fit into your theology as well.

    No one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor.12:3)
    If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. (Rom.10:9)
    The reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (Rom.14:9)

    Are you saying this is not a part of your theology?

    Philippians 2:10-11
    that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

    1 Corinthians 12:3
    Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
    “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

    Romans 14:9
    For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
    he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

    Romans 10:9
    If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
    that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
    S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
     
  20. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Allow me to tell you something you may not like or even want to think about. - lol
    All of creation will be restored. The demons are part of all creation. Even Satan.
     
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