THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS (Luke 16) IS NOT A PARABLE

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Saint Steven

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NO SIR you do not. IF you did you would have posted them a long, long time ago.
Oh yes I do. Here you go. Let me know if you need more.

Saint Steven said:
I have more scripture to post, but somehow I don't think it will help you. Since everything posted so far has been rejected by you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The restoration of all things

Matt 19:28:
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:21
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Rom 8:20-21:
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Romans 11:36
For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Isa 65:17
"See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Rev 21:5
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!"

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Note: This scripture is actually about the first coming of Christ. But makes an interesting statement about enduring the day of his coming.
 
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Butch5

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I disagree. That is what I would say of your understand or lack there of.

John Gill says...…….
"the soul that continues in sin, without repentance towards God, and faith in Christ, shall die the second death; shall be separated from the presence of God, and endure his wrath to all eternity: or the meaning is, that a person that is guilty of sins, and continues in them, shall personally suffer; he shall endure one calamity or another, as the famine, sword, pestilence, or be carried into captivity, which is the death all along spoken of in this chapter; the Lord will exercise no patience towards him, or defer punishment to a future generation, his offspring; but shall immediately execute it upon himself.

I think that I shall choose his explanation over yours my friend.

Of course you will, it agrees with you. However, he's wrong too. God said, the soul that sins shall die. Paul said, the wages of sin is death. Jesus said, for God so loved the world that gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish. Death is the result of sin. Nowhere in Scripture is it said that the penalty for sin is eternal conscious torment. Your's and Gill's theology is directly opposed to the words of God, Jesus, and Paul.
 
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Butch5

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As intelligent as you are, I should not have to be telling you that the
word “gehenna” is associated with burning. It is a word which Jesus used this ten times in the New Testament to draw attention to to what HELL would be like. If the people THEN wanted to know what hell was going to be like......
LOOK there in the valley of Gehenna and you will see!!!!!

Gehenna means valley of Hinnom. The Hinnom Valley in Jerusalem is basically a deep, fine narrow valley on the south end of Jerusalem. In this valley, the Israelites worshipped the pagan god Molech by offering human sacrifices. They burned their own children alive by placing the baby on the fiery hot hands of the statue while the pagan priests beat the drums to cover up the screams of the baby as it was being incinerated. They did that so that they would have good crops. It was Idol worship!

Historically, it has been written that in order for the child sacrifice to be accepted by Molech, the parents had to stand motionless – and emotionless – while the child was burned to death.

Of course Gehenna is associated with fire. However, Hades is not. The Rich Man was in Hades, not Gehenna. Gehenna is where the wicked will be cast. It is the Lake of Fire.
 
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Butch5

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BUT that place WAS NOT HELL! It was a place which was used as an example of what the real hell will be like and what bothers me more than anything is that I am having to explain that to you......Really.

What place on the earth will NOT be a holy place eventually????

That is what you call hell. Jesus didn't say if your hand offends you cut it off for it is better to enter life maimed than to be cast into a place like Gehenna. He said it was better than being cast into Gehenna. That's where the wicked will be tossed. That what Isaiah prophesied about.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.1
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.(Isa. 66:22-1:1 KJV)

This is the place Jesus called Gehenna. If that place will be made holy then it's not going to burn forever.
 
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Butch5

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Butch.....I just do not have the patience or time to go through such an elementary teaching for you on this.

The body goes to the grave for ALL those who die.

The spirt goes to heaven for believers.
The spirit goes to Torments/Hell soon to be Lake of Fire for unbelievers.

The 1st Resurrection places the bodies and spirits together for believers and they receive a glorified body and will be in heaven.

The 2nd Resurrection does the same thing for all unbelievers and they will be cast into the lake of fire forever but not in a glorified body.

Now if you can not accept this, they I suggest that YOU do the study from the Bible just like I have done.

Most of this is wrong. That's probably why you can't see the error. Your theology doesn't fit with what we find in Scripture. God said the the soul that sins shall die. Paul said the wages of sin is death. Jesus said, God had sent Him so that believers wouldn't perish. David said,

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.1 (Ps. 37:20 KJV)


Here we have God, Jesus, David, and Paul. The wicked shall die and perish. There is nothing here about anyone suffering in eternal conscious torment. Your theology is in opposition to God, Jesus, David, and Paul.
 
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Butch5

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LOL!!!!!!!!

2 TIMOTHY 2:15 ………..
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

You might want to take your own advice. As I said, God said the soul that sins shall die. He didn't say the soul that sins shall suffer in eternal torment.

For someone who really wants to believe that people don't suffer ETC you sure are dismissing a lot of information that shows they don't.
 
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NOPE! Rev. 15:4 does not contain the words or the idea that...…….
"EVERYONE will be saved and removed from the Lake of Fire", does it my brother?????

That's quite correct. As I said, Genesis 1 does not contain the Alpha either. But he is there at the beginning nonetheless.

Rev. 21:24 speaks directly to this as we see...….
"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it."

I'm afraid those words are not in many manuscripts or translations, and do not mean that not all will not make it, simply by reference to Rev 15:4. Otherwise you'd need to say God doesn't live up to His promises - I said ALL will come, but sorry, most didn't make it through the fire lol. The nations of them which are saved is therefore a redundancy, and emphasis that they do get saved in the LoF.

Look Major, God has SWORN OATHS BY HIMSELF that:
  • all nations shall be blessed through the seed of Abraham (Genesis 22:18, Hebrews 6:13)
  • as surely as He lives, every knee will bow and every tongue confess, and they'll recognise only God is righteous. (Isaiah 45:23-24, Romans 14:11)
There is NO HIGHER EXPRESSION of the will of God than when He swears an oath, now is there:

For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, (Heb 6:13)

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
(Numbers 23:19)

So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. (Isa 55:11)

The Book of Revelation is the revelation of the means by which God's great covenant oaths of universal salvation by faith are to be accomplished. Verses like Rev 15:4 and the final visions from Rev 20:13 onwards clearly disclose the consummation of the promise that was sealed in holy blood at Calvary. The LoF is the figurative illustration of the means by which conversion is brought about for the stubborn sinners.

Otherwise, if God tortures ppl forever in the LoF, how can He discharge His great covenantal oaths? The answer is that HE CANNOT. So who must be in error here Major, God or you? [Hint: it ain't God]

Why in the world did you take the time to post this as NONE of them have anything to do with the Lake of Fire.

Reason with me, Major. If 2+2+x=6, then we can solve x=2. So it is here, we have certain 'knowns', including God giving His unbreakable oath that ALL will be saved, the sinful nations being consumed by fire, God renewing all things, and then the nations found walking in the light on the other side. So it's not rocket science to resolve the function of the LoF from 'unknown' to known quantity, is it now Major?
 
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Still trying to twist scripture to make it say what you want it to. There are no, zero, none nations in the grave and they are not nations when they are resurrected. Still doesn't say what you want it to.

Would you kindly clarify as to whom you believe scripture says will be subject to the GWTJ, der Alte.

You now apparently concede that the nations who are walking on the earth at that time will be, but any who are under the earth at that time will not be raised for judgment, is that right? Do you deny the dead shall be raised?
 
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Major1

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That's quite correct. As I said, Genesis 1 does not contain the Alpha either. But he is there at the beginning nonetheless.



I'm afraid those words are not in many manuscripts or translations, and do not mean that not all will not make it, simply by reference to Rev 15:4. Otherwise you'd need to say God doesn't live up to His promises - I said ALL will come, but sorry, most didn't make it through the fire lol. The nations of them which are saved is therefore a redundancy, and emphasis that they do get saved in the LoF.

Look Major, God has SWORN OATHS BY HIMSELF that:
  • all nations shall be blessed through the seed of Abraham (Genesis 22:18, Hebrews 6:13)
  • as surely as He lives, every knee will bow and every tongue confess, and they'll recognise only God is righteous. (Isaiah 45:23-24, Romans 14:11)
There is NO HIGHER EXPRESSION of the will of God than when He swears an oath, now is there:

For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, (Heb 6:13)

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
(Numbers 23:19)

So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. (Isa 55:11)

The Book of Revelation is the revelation of the means by which God's great covenant oaths of universal salvation by faith are to be accomplished. Verses like Rev 15:4 and the final visions from Rev 20:13 onwards clearly disclose the consummation of the promise that was sealed in holy blood at Calvary. The LoF is the figurative illustration of the means by which conversion is brought about for the stubborn sinners.

Otherwise, if God tortures ppl forever in the LoF, how can He discharge His great covenantal oaths? The answer is that HE CANNOT. So who must be in error here Major, God or you? [Hint: it ain't God]



Reason with me, Major. If 2+2+x=6, then we can solve x=2. So it is here, we have certain 'knowns', including God giving His unbreakable oath that ALL will be saved, the sinful nations being consumed by fire, God renewing all things, and then the nations found walking in the light on the other side. So it's not rocket science to resolve the function of the LoF from 'unknown' to known quantity, is it now Major?

You said............
"The Book of Revelation is the revelation of the means by which God's great covenant oaths of universal salvation by faith are to be accomplished. Verses like Rev 15:4 and the final visions from Rev 20:13 onwards clearly disclose the consummation of the promise that was sealed in holy blood at Calvary. The LoF is the figurative illustration of the means by which conversion is brought about for the stubborn sinners."

That is completely incorrect my friend.

The Revelation is the culmination Of Daniels prophecy. Daniel 9:24.....
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Then consider Daniel 12:4......
"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

If you or anyone else misunderstands these Scriptures then everything else will be flawed. It was impossibe to grasp the importance of Daniels's words until Jesus gave the end of the story to John in the Revelation.

The misunderstanding and purposefully twisting the Scriptures to fit your narrative is unacceptable.
You are welcome to believe anything you choose to but I am just as welcome to reject those OPINIONS and accept the Word of God.

Israel is Israel and the promises made by God to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are for them and NOT THE CHURCH today.

You may say that the Lake of fire is symbolic all you want to but that does not change the fact that it is a REAL PLACE and the torments will be REAL and everlasting for those who choose to go there.
 
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Would you kindly clarify as to whom you believe scripture says will be subject to the GWTJ, der Alte.

You now apparently concede that the nations who are walking on the earth at that time will be, but any who are under the earth at that time will not be raised for judgment, is that right? Do you deny the dead shall be raised?

Are you being obtuse on purpose or just twisting Scriptures to fit you wishes????

Der Alte is correct! There are NO NATIONS in the Torments side of Shaol today. There are only the spirts of the INDIVIDUAL wicked lost. IF YOU want to call them the "Nation of The Wicked Lost" then I guess there would be a Nation in Torments.
 
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You might want to take your own advice. As I said, God said the soul that sins shall die. He didn't say the soul that sins shall suffer in eternal torment.

For someone who really wants to believe that people don't suffer ETC you sure are dismissing a lot of information that shows they don't.

According to the Bible, death is not the end of life but the separation of the soul from the body. Scripture clearly speaks of both eternal life with God in heaven and eternal separation from God in hell. Death is the result of sin. Romans 6:23 directly states, "For the wages of sin is death." Every person dies physically, because all have sinned ( Romans 5:12 ).

My advice still stands and I have missed nothing on this subject.
 
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You said............
"The Book of Revelation is the revelation of the means by which God's great covenant oaths of universal salvation by faith are to be accomplished. Verses like Rev 15:4 and the final visions from Rev 20:13 onwards clearly disclose the consummation of the promise that was sealed in holy blood at Calvary. The LoF is the figurative illustration of the means by which conversion is brought about for the stubborn sinners."

That is completely incorrect my friend.

The Revelation is the culmination Of Daniels prophecy. Daniel 9:24.....
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

Then consider Daniel 12:4......
"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

If you or anyone else misunderstands these Scriptures then everything else will be flawed. It was impossibe to grasp the importance of Daniels's words until Jesus gave the end of the story to John in the Revelation.

The misunderstanding and purposefully twisting the Scriptures to fit your narrative is unacceptable.
You are welcome to believe anything you choose to but I am just as welcome to reject those OPINIONS and accept the Word of God.

Israel is Israel and the promises made by God to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are for them and NOT THE CHURCH today.

You may say that the Lake of fire is symbolic all you want to but that does not change the fact that it is a REAL PLACE and the torments will be REAL and everlasting for those who choose to go there.

So what happens to God's everlasting covenant oaths that all will be blessed and all will worship Him?

And there shall be no more curse (Rev 22:3a)

"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED." (Rev 15:4)

Looks to me very much like Revelation teaches the new creation will be blessed and all the nations will bow their knees and confess in worship. And entirely consistent with the Daniel prophecy.

Or did those great divine oaths just get lost in the noise, forgotten and sidelined Major?
 
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Are you being obtuse on purpose or just twisting Scriptures to fit you wishes????

Der Alte is correct! There are NO NATIONS in the Torments side of Shaol today. There are only the spirts of the INDIVIDUAL wicked lost. IF YOU want to call them the "Nation of The Wicked Lost" then I guess there would be a Nation in Torments.

I'm asking der Alte what he's trying to say. So please keep the corridor clear there Major.

Btw, nations are peoples, foreigners, children of Noah's other sons. God still loves them.
 
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Most of this is wrong. That's probably why you can't see the error. Your theology doesn't fit with what we find in Scripture. God said the the soul that sins shall die. Paul said the wages of sin is death. Jesus said, God had sent Him so that believers wouldn't perish. David said,

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.1 (Ps. 37:20 KJV)


Here we have God, Jesus, David, and Paul. The wicked shall die and perish. There is nothing here about anyone suffering in eternal conscious torment. Your theology is in opposition to God, Jesus, David, and Paul.

Now you want to talk about "Annialation". Fine with me.

However.....You will have to try another Scripture because Psalms 27 is not going to help you.

I can see why you would want to use Psalm 37 in support of your position.

It says that the wicked will fade away like the grass,
2. that they will be cut off (v. 9),
3.will be no more (v. 10),
4. will perish as the smoke fades away (v. 20),
5. that they will be cut off (v. 22, 34),
6. will not be there no more (v. 36),
7. and be destroyed (v. 38).

With this kind of language, no wonder you gravitate to this Psalm. But, is the Psalm talking about God's final condemnation upon the wicked at the Judgment Seat with the result being annihilation? Or, is the psalmist using vivid imagery to convey the destruction of the wicked in their present time as well as describing their ultimate end in vivid terms?

Is David speaking precisely about annihilation, or is he speaking from the perspective that the wicked will be no more in this age, not that they won't exist in the future age? We know the wicked will be destroyed. The Bible tells us that in many places.

But, the nature of that destruction is not specified. Now, some conditionalist might object and say that the nature of the destruction is specified and that Psalm 37 is clear. After all, it says, "they will be no more," (v. 10), that they will perish as the smoke fades away (v. 20), that he was no more (v. 36), and that he will be destroyed (v. 38).

But, do those verses necessitate the conditionalist interpretation? LNo, they don't.
 
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I'm asking der Alte what he's trying to say. So please keep the corridor clear there Major.

Btw, nations are peoples, foreigners, children of Noah's other sons. God still loves them.

Sorry. I thought this was a "Forum" where we all could join in. You know , sometimes people do not always read the posts of others so that those posts can be corrected by the Scripturas.
 
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So what happens to God's everlasting covenant oaths that all will be blessed and all will worship Him?

And there shall be no more curse (Rev 22:3a)

"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED." (Rev 15:4)

Looks to me very much like Revelation teaches the new creation will be blessed and all the nations will bow their knees and confess in worship. And entirely consistent with the Daniel prophecy.

Or did those great divine oaths just get lost in the noise, forgotten and sidelined Major?

You missed the whole point of the 7 year Tribulation Peroid. That time is to bring the Jews to Christ. The effects of the post Edenic curse will be totally gone.

And YES, just as I already said.......The Revelation is the unfolding of Daniel and all nations will come and worship Christ in the New Earth.
 
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Sorry. I thought this was a "Forum" where we all could join in. You know , sometimes people do not always read the posts of others so that those posts can be corrected by the Scripturas.

That's ok, I'm just waiting for der Alte to clarify his position so I can correct his error lol.

Feel free to correct mine in the meantime, but preferably using halfway decent arguments. Not your fault, it's just you're on a futile and misconceived hiding to nothing attempting to defend the indefensible - eternal conscious torment.

By the grace of God, the scales shall fall!
 
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You missed the whole point of the 7 year Tribulation Peroid. That time is to bring the Jews to Christ. The effects of the post Edenic curse will be totally gone.

Oh, ok. I think it's to bring all unbelievers to Christ. The holdouts get the second resurrection.

And YES, just as I already said.......The Revelation is the unfolding of Daniel and all nations will come and worship Christ in the New Earth.

Alleluja! So you accept that the unbelievers don't end up on the bbq forever. Welcome to the truth Major.
 
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The ending of life in this sphere is the Beginning of zao life in the next.

The Beginning is the Ending. His Name is Abba.

You are a funny guy Moonbeam.

Zao never applies to animal, plant or other life forms. When zao is used as a participle it describes either living beings or inanimate things.

Now YOU having said that, lets see what God says about the heaven we go to.........

Isaiah 11:6-9
"The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them. 7The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8The infant will play near the cobra's den, and the young child will put its hand into the viper's nest. 9They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea."

This is exactly why we disagree on so many things. You simply do not know about what God's Word actually does say.
 
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