The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

[Light of the East]

It's not a licence to sin. Rather the gracious love of God sets free from sin:

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because He first loved us.

Rom.6: How can we who died to sin live in it any longer? 3 Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

"Sin does not stop God's grace from flowing, but God's grace will stop sin."

Read more at: Joseph Prince Quotes - BrainyQuote

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Having come to a knowledge of our loving heavenly Father's PERFECT REDEMPTIVE LOVE and how that love means that I WILL at sometime in eternity, obtain union with His Son, which is the goal of our lives and of redemption, I have NO DESIRE to return to the sins that were so much "fun" for me between 18 and 22.

I have tasted deeply of the forbidden fruit and it has left a most distinctly sour taste in my mouth. More than that, by God's immense grace, I have come to see how terribly I hurt so many people by my selfishness. Anyone who has learned in this terrible school through which God allowed me to matriculate would never want to return to sin nor be inclined to ever hurt people again in the manner in which he had done.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Calvin made up a religion by putting an interpretation on the Sacred Scriptures which had never been taught by the Church.

Presbyterianism isn't a religion. it's a denomination of the same religion that romanists are apart of only with different doctrinal distinctives.

BTW - you are speaking with an X-Calvinist here, so I have had to make this discovery for myself.

uh huh, i'm x-this and an x-that. no one knows how thoroughly I understood my former position but hey, I believed it.

i'm not impressed bud.

I honestly thought at one time that Calvinism and the particulars to that teaching were taught in the first three centuries of the Church, that the horrible Catholic Church suppressed those teachings beginning with Constantine, and that Calvin and the Reformers actually restored the "pure worship" of the Apostles.

great, my truth comes from reading non-infallible, non-inspired sources and reading their conclusions into the scriptures. that's nice bud.

A reading of the Early Fathers cured me of such nonsense.

and then you picked up a belief that people who die outside of Christ in unrepentant sin will still be saved.

at least you stayed consistent in never consulting scripture for your conclusions.

So you don't wish to read anything that might challenge your perspective.

you haven't provided anything..

 

[Light of the East]

Matthew 24 ...Jesus' Prophecy of His Glorious Return
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and
then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and
they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His ELECT (ONLY SAVED BELIEVERS) from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

The term "the elect" must be taken in context not used to prove a religious system which was invented 1500 years after Christ spoke.

TO WHOM is the Gospel of Matthew written? THE JEWS! There are things spoken of, words used in it, and whole stories, which would only be understood by a Jew and only apply to them. One of the most misused is from the very chapter you have quoted, where Premillennialist Dispensationalists have insisted for years that this section is speaking about some "Rapture of the Church" in the future somewhere.

IT
DOES
NOT!

It is specifically a warning to the Jews that the destruction of Jerusalem was coming in AD 70. The "elect" are those who were elected to escape that destruction by believing in Messiah. When the armies of Titus pulled back from Jerusalem, giving a respite from the siege, the Christians trapped inside remember this warning and fled to Pella in the darkness of the night.

There is no such thing as the God, who IS love, electing some to damnation and not saving them. That makes a mockery of the horror of the Cross and the love of God shown there.

 

[Light of the East]

Presbyterianism isn't a religion. it's a denomination of the same religion that romanists are apart of only with different doctrinal distinctives.


uh huh, i'm x-this and an x-that. no one knows how thoroughly I understood my former position but hey, I believed it.

i'm not impressed bud.


great, my truth comes from reading non-infallible, non-inspired sources and reading their conclusions into the scriptures. that's nice bud.


and then you picked up a belief that people who die outside of Christ in unrepentant sin will still be saved.

at least you stayed consistent in never consulting scripture for your conclusions.


you haven't provided anything..

Did you click on the link or not?

 

[Light of the East]

I am missing nothing. I have been a Christian since Johnson was president. I have been preaching and teaching for more than 4 decades. I have studied Theology, the Bible etc. at the graduate level. I don't believe anything simply because my grandmother believed it. There is no video you can link to, no scholar you can quote, no scripture you can cite etc. which will convince me that UR is scriptural.

What is it that so terrifies you about Patristic Universalism?

You make a big deal here about studying the Bible and your degrees and so forth, but when people actually show you something from the Bible that contradicts the fear-worship that has been shoveled into your mind, you refuse to consider it?

Why?

What is so terribly terrible about having a Father who loves us all enough to forgive us all, heal us from our sins, and cure us - some in this lifetime through repentance, and some through hell (not eternal, but painful nonetheless) so that all Creation can be restored?

 

[Light of the East]

Paul quoted Isaiah in Philippians, so Isa is relevant. "Willing worship" is nonsense. After the unrepentant have been punished for a greater or lesser time will they be filled with warm fuzzies for the God who punished them? The prison recidivism rate is 66+%. Many of those blame everyone but themselves, witnesses, judges, lawyers etc. even to the point of trying to harm them. So how do they change after God has punished them?

Because their eyes are opened and they see.

I went through some times of sheer hell right here on earth because of my own sinful choices. I almost died and my life was a misery. Yet through those experiences, I learned the truth. Am I bitter because God allowed this chastisement in my life? NO! I see clearly now. I see that God was not to blame, my own sinful choices were.

So will every soul that is purged in the fires of God's love and truth. They will come to see what they have done in the light of truth and with clear sight. Remember, we are like the dwarves in C.S. Lewis's THE LAST BATTLE - BLIND!! The nest life is where sight is given.

And your comparison of heavenly things to earthly realities is way out of bounds. So earthly prisoners go back to evil. So what? We aren't discussing earthly realities here. I would think you would know better than to make such a comparison.

 

[Light of the East]

My friend you must lighten up! Life is too short to allow yourself to be so miserable! Take a few minutes and take a few lovely pieces of advise>>>>>>>>

Please turn on your sound

40 pieces of advise for every day

He is scared spitless that if he believes in Apokatastasis, God will be filled with unspeakable rage and will give him 10 times the fire and torments in hell that other sinners get. Be gentle with this poor soul. I've been there and done that. I am starting to think of God as my loving heavenly Father instead of Zeus Almighty. It brings a great deal of peace to my soul.

 

[Light of the East]

I have been here at CF for almost 2 decades. I think I can safely say that virtually every heterodox belief around has been done to death here. But as long as heterodox believers come here posting and reposting the same arguments ad nauseum, then someone should be here to refute them lest someone who is wavering, on the fence considering joining or leaving such a group believes the false teaching because there is no one here to refute them.

This is hilarious, coming from someone who belongs to a religion started in the 16th century by Roger Williams

 

[Der Alte]

What is it that so terrifies you about Patristic Universalism?

This reply is filled with insults. That means trying to reason with you is a waste of time. I'm not afraid of anything but I have studied the scripture more than most people here and nobody has convinced me that "patristic universalism" is scriptural.

You make a big deal here about studying the Bible and your degrees and so forth, but when people actually show you something from the Bible that contradicts the fear-worship that has been shoveled into your mind, you refuse to consider it?
Why?

I made a "big deal" of nothing. Someone either stated or implied that I did not know what I was talking about.
Nothing has been "shoveled into my mind" I felt the need to and I went to school and studied the same way I studied to be a medic in the Army. the same way I studied to be an Army officer, the same way I studied to be a helicopter pilot. Whenever I didn't understand something I asked questions.
I don't teach or practice "fear worship

What is so terribly terrible about having a Father who loves us all enough to forgive us all, heal us from our sins, and cure us - some in this lifetime through repentance, and some through hell (not eternal, but painful nonetheless) so that all Creation can be restored?

Please show me where I ever said or implied that universalism was "terrible?" What I have posted is I do not believe that universalism is not scriptural and no one has clearly shown me otherwise from scripture.
If you wish to continue perhaps you should refrain from insults.

 

[Der Alte]

begin

Paul quoted Isaiah in Philippians, so Isa is relevant. "Willing worship" is nonsense.
1. After the unrepentant have been punished for a greater or lesser time will they be filled with warm fuzzies for the God who punished them?
2. The prison recidivism rate is 66+%. Many of those blame everyone but themselves, witnesses, judges, lawyers etc. even to the point of trying to harm them.
3. So how do they change after God has punished them?

end

Because their eyes are opened and they see.

Scripture?

I went through some times of sheer hell right here on earth because of my own sinful choices. I almost died and my life was a misery. Yet through those experiences, I learned the truth. Am I bitter because God allowed this chastisement in my life? NO! I see clearly now. I see that God was not to blame, my own sinful choices were.

You are aware that happened in this life aren't you? Not after death after some punishment somewhere.

So will every soul that is purged in the fires of God's love and truth. They will come to see what they have done in the light of truth and with clear sight. Remember, we are like the dwarves in C.S. Lewis's THE LAST BATTLE - BLIND!! The nest life is where sight is given.

Scripture? C.S. Lewis is irrelevant. Show me where what he said is in scripture?

And your comparison of heavenly things to earthly realities is way out of bounds. So earthly prisoners go back to evil. So what? We aren't discussing earthly realities here. I would think you would know better than to make such a comparison.

Wrong again. What happens to people in sheol/gehenna is not "heavenly things."
Where does scripture say that God will purge the minds, hearts, spirit of those who have been in sheol/gehenna for some period?
How are they going to develop warm, fuzzies for God who punished them when they don't do it in this life?
Give me some scripture please?

 

[Der Alte]

This is hilarious, coming from someone who belongs to a religion started in the 16th century by Roger Williams

Another insult which proves nothing about anything.

 

[FineLinen]

He is scared spitless that if he believes in Apokatastasis, God will be filled with unspeakable rage and will give him 10 times the fire and torments in hell that other sinners get. Be gentle with this poor soul. I've been there and done that. I am starting to think of God as my loving heavenly Father instead of Zeus Almighty. It brings a great deal of peace to my soul.

Dear Light: Our Father in indeed love. This is His essence, not simply a characteristic. All aspects of His great glory flow from His essence into the consummation of His great Plan in the Son of His love, the Lord Jesus Christ!

From Him everything comes, through Him exists & in Him everything ends...He is the God of ta panta

 

[Light of the East]

Another insult which proves nothing about anything.

Not an insult. It is a high piece of hilarious irony that you would make such a statement

 

[Saint Steven]

… You cannot have the Bible contradicting itself, can you? ...

Really?
Are we saved by grace, or by works?

 

[Light of the East]

Really?
Are we saved by grace, or by works?

I have no idea how this relates to the ongoing conversation.

 

[Saint Steven]

you prove that two people who died outside of Christ will be saved.

Where did Jesus go and what did he do before he was raised from the dead? (Eph.4:8-10)
Jesus was laid in an above ground tomb. (Matt.12:40)

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

[Light of the East]

Der Alter, This reply is filled with insults. That means trying to reason with you is a waste of time. I'm not afraid of anything but I have studied the scripture more than most people here and nobody has convinced me that "patristic universalism" is scriptural.

Only in your mind, sir. I don't see a single name I called you, which would be to truly insult you. I just asked what you are afraid of.

I made a "big deal" of nothing. Someone either stated or implied that I did not know what I was talking about.
Nothing has been "shoveled into my mind" I felt the need to and I went to school and studied the same way I studied to be a medic in the Army. the same way I studied to be an Army officer, the same way I studied to be a helicopter pilot. Whenever I didn't understand something I asked questions. I don't teach or practice "fear worship

I once spoke with a Methodist minister who told me that in four years of going to his Methodist seminary, not one single time did he hear one quote from one Early Father. That isn't an education - that is a brainwashing to make sure that the seminary turns out good little Methodists who don't question anything. Unfortunately, an awful lot of places that teach do exactly this. The most honest thing to do is to study all sides of the question.

You know, it's odd to see FACTS being put up here, like the fact that the word "aionios" does not mean eternal, that the Roman Catholic Church either deliberately or through linguistic stupidity, mistranslated it, and yet see folks like you fight this information to the death.

Please show me where I ever said or implied that universalism was "terrible?" What I have posted is I do not believe that universalism is not scriptural and no one has clearly shown me otherwise from scripture.
If you wish to continue perhaps you should refrain from insults.

But you have been shown from Scripture and apparently you do not wish to hear it. Now I'll turn the tables on you a little bit. Show me from any source that "aionios" means "eternal" in the Greek. I'm not talking about Western mistranslations either. I'm talking about a Greek PhD expert like Ilreni Ramanelli.

 

[Saint Steven]

I have no idea how this relates to the ongoing conversation.

You seemed to be unaware of the contradictions in the Bible. Like grace and works.

I have concluded that faith only works when we don't have all the puzzle pieces.
Otherwise it's not faith. At some point we are required to step out on the water.

 

[FineLinen]

You seemed to be unaware of the contradictions in the Bible. Like grace and works.

I have concluded that faith only works when we don't have all the puzzle pieces.
Otherwise it's not faith. At some point we are required to step out on the water.

Dear Saint Steven: I was beginning to wonder if some wascally wabbit had gobbled you up. LOL.

This lonely vigil continues for what burns like a fire in my old 77 year old bones! Mrs. F.L. maintains I must get a life. She has been a wonderful gift to me, but little does she know how cheap quickie divorces are found today.

Well my friend, there is nothing simple in Abba's World. Each digit, like Pi, leads to cascading dimensions of the Author. As He lifts us by the mighty anointing of Spirit, new horizons come into view.

Recently, an astronomer was drawn to one pinprick of light in the vast heavens. Do you know what he found? Thousands more stars and galaxies all breaking before his eyes.

Dear Father: Have we told you lately how much we love You?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Where did Jesus go and what did he do before he was raised from the dead? (Eph.4:8-10)
Jesus was laid in an above ground tomb. (Matt.12:40)

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

What does any of this have to do with the price of tea in China?