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Featured The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by FineLinen, Jun 24, 2018.

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  1. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear W: I know not the price of the tea in China, but I know what the Apostle Peter declares>>>>

    The risen Christ preaches to the dead

    “Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

    Please Note

    1. These individuals were "disobedient" & judged accordingly as "men in flesh".

    2. The outcome of Jesus Christ ministering to these disobedient "dead" = "live according to God in the spirit.”

    Do you have any idea what zao means?

    That is precisely what St Peter declares regarding the ministry of Jesus Christ to the "disobedient dead"!!

    Zao - New Testament Greek Lexicon - King James Version
     
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  2. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Nothing. But since you asked...

    Apr 13, 2019 · average tea-leaves cost about 150RMB (20-30 USdollar )per 500g. Tea leaves of cheaper price is considered of low quality. FYI, the most expensive tea I have ever had costed about 20000RMB( about 3000 usdollar) per 500g in the form of dry leaves.
     
  3. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Thanks.
    The moral of the story is that these "dead" were saved by Christ. (in the afterlife)
    What is to prevent that from happening again? (nothing)
     
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I have NOT been shown from scripture. A lot of out-of-context proof texts have been posted but I have shown how it does not say what universalists want it to.
    .....Ilaria Ramelli is no more a Greek PhD expert than she is the president. Here is a link to her CV, Curriculum Vitae, a resume of her degrees etc. Greek is not even mentioned https://ias.ceu.edu/sites/ias.ceu.edu/files/ramelli_ilaria_cv.pdf
    Here is my study of the words αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios. In twenty one [21] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
    List of verses:1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33,Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26.
    …..In the NT “aion/aionios” sometimes refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
    [1]Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    [2]Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
    [3]Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
    In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
    [4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [5]2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
    In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house only lasts a little longer which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [7]1 Peter 1:23
    (23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
    1 Peter 1:25
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
    In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Petr, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
    [8]1 Timothy 6:16
    (16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
    [9]Galatians 6:8
    (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
    [10]John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [11]John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
    [12]1 John 2:17
    (17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
    [13]1 Peter 5:10
    (10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
    [14]Romans 2:7
    (7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
    [15]1 Timothy 1:17.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [16]Revelation 14:11
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
    [17]John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
    [18]John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
    [19]John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
    [20]Romans 5:21
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
    [21]Ephesians 3:21
    (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
    In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
    [22]John 8:51
    (51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
    According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age, by definition aion means eternity.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  5. THE W

    THE W AFRIKANB0T

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    clearly you don't know that either as that verse says nothing about the gospel being preached to the deceased. dead means spiritually dead. those dead in sin are souls in prison(ephesians 2:1-5). the power of the gospel frees them from their prison. the gospel both condemns the sinner for falling short of God's glory(judges them as men in the flesh; fallen sons and daughters in adam) as well as provides a way of redemption(live according to God in the Spirit...or zao).

    there are no seconds chances bud...sorry.

    just as it's appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment. Hebrews 9:27
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  6. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear W: Our Father's purposes are not rooted in chance, first, second, third! This is NOT a Heavenly gambling casino!!

    "Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -Rotherham Emphasized-

    Dead=

    nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

    Breathed his last/ lifeless.

    Deceased/ departed.

    Destitute of life/ without life.

    Inanimate.

    Disobedient= apeitheo=

    Not to allow one’s self to be persuaded.

    To refuse or withhold belief & obedience.

    To refuse belief and obedience.

    Not to comply with.

    Live= zao=

    To be alive with resurrection life.
     
  7. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Where is the house of Jacob now?
     
  8. THE W

    THE W AFRIKANB0T

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    you're demonstrating here that you don't understand basic figures of speech. do you think adam dropped dead when he ate the fruit from the tree when God told him he would surely die? when you first sinned(because we all have sinned) did you drop dead, being that the wages of sin is death(doesn't appear you did old timer)?

    you're gonna need to do better than this if you want to be convincing outside of your echo chamber.
     
  9. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    The Orthodox Church is the church established by the Apostles.
     
  10. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    I would like for universalism to be right but according to the scriptures and early church writings it’s not.

    Do I think that eternal punishment is wrong? No, I accept that God knows what is best, not me. Who am I to question God’s decisions?
     
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  11. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear BNR: The faster you can run from your present dogma of our heavenly Father being the source of on-going torment for His beloved creation the better!

    "Just as any teacher in Christianity towered aloft, so in proportion did he the more hold and defend the termination of penalties at some time in the future." - Dcederlin, Inst. Theol

    "Indeed, beside ORIGEN, GREGORY of Nyssa also, GREGORY of Nazianzus, BASIL, AMBROSE himself, and JEROME, taught everywhere the universal restitution of things, asserting simultaneously with it, an end of eternal punishment."-C. B. SCHLEUTER, pref. in. Erig, (Migne.)

    PFAFF says, "The ultimate restoration of the lost was an opinion held by very many Jewish teachers, and some of the Fathers." - Frag.anec.

    REUSS says, "The doctrine of a general restoration of all rational creatures has been recommended by very many of the greatest thinkers of the antient church, and of modern times." - Hist. de la theol, Apost.

    "From two theological schools there went forth an opposition to the doctrine of everlasting punishment." - NEANDER, Church Hist. iv. p. 444., Lond., 1853.

    "The dogma of ORIGEN had many, and these the most celebrated defenders." - PAGE, In. Bar. ann. A.D. 410, p. 103.

    "The school of .Antioch had no hesitation in hoping for an end of the pains of the other world." - MUNTER

    "Universalism in the fourth century drove its roots down deeply, alike in the East and West, and had very many defenders." - DlETELMAIER.- Comm. fanat.

    The learned and candid HUET names several Fathers as in sympathy with the larger hope. - Origen. ii, pp. 159, 205: Co1egn, 1685.

    GIESELER says, "The belief in the inalienable power of amendment in all rational creatures, and the limited duration of future punishment was general, even in the West."- Text Book i. p.212. Phil. . 1836.

    I TRUST the candid reader will weigh the above testimonies with all care, coming as they do, so far as I know, in almost every case from those who are not friendly to Universalism. We shall see how they are supported by a vast body of evidence, from all quarters, in the earliest centuries; and confirmed by the express testimony (which I shall quote) of co-temporary witnesses so famous as AUGUSTINE, JEROME, BASIL, (and DOMITIAN of Ancyra,) who attest the very wide diffusion of the larger hope in their age. The following pages will, I hope, show clearly how groundless is the widespread opinion which represents Universalism as the outcome of modern sentimentality, and will establish clearly:

    (1.) That it prevailed very widely in the primitive Church, especially in the earliest centuries, often in a form embracing all fallen spirits.

    (2.) That those who believed and taught it, more or less openly, or held kindred views, were among the most eminent and the most holy of the Christian Fathers.

    (3.) That it not only has never been condemned by the Church, but is, far more than any other view, in harmony with the antient catholic Creeds.

    (4.) That in our Prayer Book are some passages, which show a leaning towards Universalism. Such an inquiry seems indispensable, not alone because this branch of the question has been usually neglected, and the argument for Universalism thereby weakened; nor because to many minds the Fathers speak with special weight, as a link connecting us with the Apostolic age, and preserving Apostolic tradition; but on grounds common to every serious student. For all such will surely admit that in dealing with a historic faith like Christianity, its doctrines cannot be adequately treated, their growth and development rightly comprehended, or studied with intelligence, except when viewed from the standpoint of history, as well as of the moral sense, and of Holy Scripture. Further, if this historical inquiry were not entered on, we should have no sufficient answer to a very possible, and very fair objection, viz.: why, if the larger hope be in the Bible, did not those great minds of old find it there? And our faith in the larger hope will gain fresh vigor, as we see it very widely taught by many of the wisest and best men in primitive times, and taught (a) not alone on the direct authority of the Bible, but (b) by those especially to whom Greek was a living tongue, was indeed their native tongue. It is a striking fact that the weight of opposition to Universalism in primitive times is found in the Latin Church, is found most vigorous where, as in AUGUSTINE'S case, the Greek language was never really mastered.

    Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  12. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Questions requiring answers=

    1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

    2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

    3. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?

    4. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?

    5. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

    6. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?

    7. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35)

    8. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?

    9. If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?

    10. If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7)

    11. As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38)

    12. Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer?

    13. Can that be just which is not merciful?

    14. Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand?

    15. Can that be merciful which is not just?

    -A. C. Thomas-
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  13. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear W: I did not realize St. Peter was using "figures of speech" while under the anointing of the Spirit he proclaimed the Christ unlimited reach to the underworld.

    Every knee, every tongue, every dimension of the heavens, the earth & the underworld.
     
  14. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Additional questions

    1. Can that be merciful which is not just?

    2. Does divine justice demand the infliction of pain from which mercy recoils?

    3. Does divine mercy require any thing that justice refuses to grant?

    4. If the demands of divine justice are opposed to the requirements of mercy, is not God divided against Himself?

    5. If the requirements of mercy are opposed to the demands of the justice of God, can His kingdom stand? -- (Mark 3:24)

    6. If the justice and mercy of God are any way opposed, do they "keep the unity of the spirit in the bonds of peace?'

    7. If justice and mercy are opposed to their requirements can Deity be a just God and a Savior? -- (Isaiah 14:21)

    8. If "a God all mercy is a God unjust," would not a God all justice be a God unmerciful?

    Justice -George MacDonald-

    Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice

    "Also unto You, O Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to every man according to his work."

    2019 advanced edition

    To You, O Lord, belongs justice, for You render to every man according to his work.'
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  15. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    This is a very well done reply. Thank you. It is much better than some of the casual remarks that are thrown around and try to pass themselves off as a good answer.

    I shall study what you have said and ask further questions of my Universalist friends. They need to have an answer for what you have shown here. I'm sure there is one, but I will not assume anything.

    BTW - My respect for you has increased immeasurably. You have really done your homework on this, and I respect such work.
     
  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    One of my first questions for Der Alter, AKA Old Shepherd would be>>>>

    What is before aionios?

    "In hope of aionios life, which God, who never lies, promised before aionios began."

    And from there F.L. would ask the following>>>>

    1. How, if it mean an endless period, can aion have a plural?

    2. How came such phrases to be used as those repeatedly occurring in Scripture, where aion is added to aion, if aion is of itself infinite?

    3. How come such phrases as for the “aion” or aions and beyond?–ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti: eis tous aionas kai eti.–(see Sept. Ex. 15:18…Dan. 12:3…Micah 4:5)

    4. How is it that we repeatedly read of the end of the aion?–Matt. 13:39-40-49;…Matt. 24:3…Matt. 28:20…1 Cor. 10:11…Hebr. 9:26.

    5. Finally, if aion be infinite, why is it applied over and over to what is strictly finite? e.g. Mark 4:19…Acts 3:21…Rom. 12:2…1 Cor. 1:20…1 Cor. 2:6…1 Cor. 3:18, 10:11, etc. etc.
     
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  17. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    You mean Origen who was labeled as a heretic by the 2nd ecumenical council of Constantinople and whom was refuted by Jerome?
     
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  19. THE W

    THE W AFRIKANB0T

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    …...you got a lot to learn bud.
     
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