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Featured The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by FineLinen, Jun 24, 2018.

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  1. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The Destruction Of The Wicked

    The "Destruction" of the Wicked

    Roger Tutt

    Hope 4 You, Roger Tutt
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Doesn't matter where you find it - it is conclusively false, and often already known to be false all along by the Ekklesia taught by Yahshua (Jesus) and following Him.

    Since it contradicts so much of Yahweh's Word (Scripture), there is nothing true or viable about so-called universalism in nor out of the early church nor any other false gospel group (all of which are accursed directly in the NT) .
     
  3. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Was the flood corrective? Was Sodom and Gomorrah corrective? Was the destruction of the 3000 at Sinai corrective. Was the slaying of all the inhabitants of the Canaanite cities corrective?
    Please show me some scripture which shows that any punishment after death is corrective? And please provide scripture which shows that unrepentant haters of God who will be punished in fire for an indeterminate period will suddenly love God and forget all about the horrible pain they have endured? Please do not continue to throw the meaningless term "Love Omnipotent" at me. Scriptural evidence please?


    See the verses above. Once they're saved, they'll be as happy with God as anyone else whom God has saved and allowed (or caused) to suffer, whether in this life or postmortem. Such as Job & those of the verses i quoted earlier. In universalism Love Omnipotent has all eternity to save everyone. Not just a few years as in your example. So He has an infinite number of chances to offer people to get saved. Mathematically that makes it impossible anyone would reject Him forever. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk.
    Not one single verse of scripture to support this wonderful sounding cliched rhetoric. You have yet to provide scripture or any evidence of any kind that vicious criminals who are mostly, 66+%, not rehabilitated by punishment in this life, will suddenly, after being punished more terribly by God, be totally rehabilitated and love God. Endlessly repeating "Love Omnipotent, Love Omnipotent," might sound wonderful to some people but does not address, respond to or explain anything.
     
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Being an MD does not make the writer an authority on the meaning of Koine Greek words or NT Theology.
     
  5. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    As it's already been mentioned in this thread, this has been an ongoing debate (not just here on CF, but all throughout the church). It's also been said it just depends on what lens you're viewing Scripture through (and not a matter of "rejecting Jesus' words" but having different interpretations).

    Maybe this older thread will be useful? Does our loving God send people to hell? (but, also as it's been posted already, most likely people will not change their minds unless there's some drastic change).

    More reading on responses to the question, "Did Jesus teach about hell?": Letting Go Of Hell Series Archives - The Official Blog of Benjamin L. Corey
     
  6. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    My friend: As in all things which flow from Abba, blind eyes must be healed, and deaf ears opened to hear things which cannot be uttered. You continue to be a blessing to my old life. What God has given to us as we walk in the Way, no man, no devil, no opinion, can alter. I am so glad after all these years being back to proclaim the majesty of Him whose ways are past finding out!

    “I want the presence of God Himself, or I don’t want anything at all to do with religion… I want all that God has or I don’t want any.” -A.W. Tozer-
     
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  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    bob wilson said:

    "Formal education is over rated, and the reality is that the highly educated disagree on most everything, and that I rejected most of my scholastic career’s emphasis."

    How does Jesus's resurrection make people righteous?

    and

    "Please forgive my egotism, but despite having Fuller’s Masters and Doctorate in Biblical theology, I increasingly sense that I seem unable to grasp what your view actually is, and that its’ obscurity and unfamiliar way of handling texts may frustrate desires to promote it."

    How does Jesus's resurrection make people righteous?

    and

    "Don’t be intimidated because someone has had more formal background in these languages. Folk like that can disagree about most anything. My sincere sense is that I have learned far more since seminary through my own independent study and ability to read a diversity of views without having someone telling me what the ‘right’ view is, and then testing to see if I can regurgitate it back."

    How does Jesus's resurrection make people righteous?
     
  8. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Have you never heard of "death bed repentance"? For example, one of the 2 criminals on crosses beside Jesus?

    See above re "death bed repentance". In the case of any who died instantly, evidently no one can repent that quickly. So the question then becomes, did their death send them somewhere where they are being corrected by a loving God whose mercy never ends? Or to be tortured by a sadistic monster? Or to be annihilated by an unfeeling terminator machine who couldn't give a damn?


    Can you show me a single Scripture that says the mercy of Love Omnipotent does not endure forever? Can you show me a single Scripture that says the love of Compassion Almighty fails & expires like a carton of milk at the moment of death? Or does "love never fail" (1 Cor.13:8)? Please show me where Scripture ever says the Lord will cast off forever those who die unsaved? Or does it say: 31For the Lord will not cast off for ever: 32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. 33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men (Lam.3:31-33)?

    Can you show me a Scripture that says those who died as unsaved infants will fry forever because they weren't born again? Did Jesus not say ye must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:3-8)? https://www.christianforums.com/thr...tims-of-infanticide-all-go-to-heaven.8037317/

    Can you show me where it says the rich man in Hades was going to never be corrected & fry forever? Or were there indications he may have been turning from the "dark side" & receiving the word of God in that "hell" for his correction: Lk. 16:19-31: https://www.christianforums.com/threads/hell.8041357/page-6#post-72139130




    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

    Do not many who've suffered horribly in this life "suddenly love God and forget all about the horrible pain they have endured"? Does God change & His ways change just because someone dies? Does death twist the arm of Love Omnipotent & change Him from being merciful into an unbelievably horrific fiend?

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

     
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Yahshua, the Lord of glory, declares He will draw/ drag of with power/impel all mankind unto Himself! Methinks He will indeed accomplish such a feat, contrary to popular fundagelical thinking.

    Rom. 5:12-21

    "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and, through sin, death entered into the world, and so death spread to all men, in that they had sinned; for up to the coming of the law sin was in the world, but sin was not debited against men because the law did not yet exist; but death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses even over those who had not sinned in the way that Adam had, Adam, who was the symbol of the one who was to come.

    But the gift of free grace was not like the trespass. For if the many died in consequence of the sin of the one, much more the grace of God and his free gift in the grace of the one man Jesus Christ abounded to many.

    The free gift is not like the effect of the one man who sinned. The sentence which followed the one sin was a sentence of condemnation; but the free gift which followed the many trespasses was a sentence of acquittal.

    For if, because of the trespass of one, death reigned because of one, much more they who receive the superabundance of grace and of that free gift which establishes a right relationship between man and God, shall reign in life through the one Jesus Christ.

    So, then, as by one sin it came to all men to fall under sentence, so by one supreme act of righteousness it came to men to enter into that relationship with God which gives them life.

    Just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners, so, through the obedience of one man, the many were constituted righteous. But the law slipped in that trespass might abound; but where sin abounded grace superabounded, so that just as sin reigned in death, grace might reign by putting men into a right relationship with God that they might enter into eternal life because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done."

    "No passage of the New Testament has had such an influence on theology as this; and no passage is more difficult for a modern mind to understand. It is difficult because Paul expresses himself in a difficult way. We can see, for instance, that the first sentence never ends, but breaks off in mid-air, while Paul pursues another idea down a sideline. Still more, it is thinking and speaking in terms which were familiar to Jews and perfectly understandable to them, but which are unfamiliar to us.

    If we were to put the thought of this passage into one sentence, which, indeed, was the sentence which Paul set out to write at the very beginning, and which got sidetracked, it would be this: "By the sin of Adam all men became sinners and were alienated from God; by the righteousness of Jesus Christ all men became righteous and are restored to a right relationship with God."

    Paul, in fact, said this very much more clearly in 1 Cor. 15:21:

    "As by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." -Dr. William Barkley-
     
  10. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    "I will draw all mankind unto Me.

    ἑλκύω [helkuo], translated as "draws" in John 6:44, never means to "woo" or to "entice", Biblically :preach: Rather, it always means to "drag", "drag off", "impel", "lead", "draw by an inward force or power", etc.

    δελεάζω [deleazo] (e.g. James 1:14; 2 Peter 2:18) is the word that means to "lure", "entice" or "woo".
     
  11. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Universalism is an existential leap of faith into a fog where there is no knowledge of what or who is in there. It is a part of modernist theology that rejects the Bible as the foundation of Christian faith.
     
  12. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    Codswallop
     
  13. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    How do you know that you actually exist? Can you prove it?
     
  14. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

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    My response to your post was just as relevant as your post.
     
  15. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    So you can't answer that question? A person with Godly faith is more than able to answer the question because he knows Who created him, where he came from, who he was before receiving Christ as Saviour, and who he is now having passed from death to life in Christ. The issue is, on what am I basing all this on? What is the foundation? The thing is that a person who is depending on an existential leap of faith is unable to discuss this because he doesn't know on what foundation he has his faith.
     
  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    You poor soul:wake up from your slumber and Christ will give you Life!

    Prof. Keith DeRose The Really Good News

    Universalism and the Bible – Keith DeRose

    "..so abundant was God's grace,the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we also have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes.."
     
  17. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    My definition of universalism might be different. I believe that it involves everyone being ultimately saved, including those who reject Christ. I know that Christ died for the whole world, but that was conditional in that each individual had to make their own choice to receive or reject Him. Receiving Him brought the reward of eternal life, and rejecting Him brought another price to pay which includes judgment and eternal separation from the grace and glory of God. Therefore, in my view, the universal aspect is the invitation to all mankind to accept the offer of salvation that is offered through Christ. If that is what universalism is in your definition, then I wholeheartedly agree.
     
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    My friend from down under: No man comes to Christ unless he is drawn/ dragged/impelled. The choice in timing is exclusively in His will and His good pleasure. In the finality of things; what has begun in God, ends in God>>>>>"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends..." Yes, He is the Source, the Guide & the Goal of the ta pante!

    Your statement today=

    "Therefore, in my view, the universal aspect is the invitation to all mankind to accept the offer of salvation that is offered through Christ."

    The statement of the Christ=

    "You did not choose Me, I chose you"
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Prof. Keith DeRose The Really Good News

    Universalism and the Bible – Keith DeRose

    "..so abundant was God's grace,the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it—the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. In Him we also have been made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will, so that we should be devoted to the extolling of His glorious attributes.."

    The Purpose of God By Vladimir Gelesnoff

    In PAUL'S letters repeated reference is made to God's "purpose" (Rom.8:28; 9:11; Eph.1:11; 3:11; 2 Tim.1:9). In all these scriptures the word is prothesis. Its force may be gathered from the fact that the twelve loaves which were placed on the Tabernacle table before the Lord are styled "loaves of purpose" (Matt.12:4; Mark 2:26; Luke 6:14; Heb.9:2).

    Hence the scriptures which speak of God's prothesis tell us that He has set before Himself a definite aim or object which He is bent on achieving.

    In Eph.3:11, occurs the phrase, "according to the purpose of the eons which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord."

    The Purpose Of God, by Vladimir Gelesnoff
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
  20. twin.spin

    twin.spin Trust the LORD and not on your own understanding

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    The simple answer is yes.
     
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