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Featured The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by FineLinen, Jun 24, 2018.

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  1. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    I have been trying to figure out for over 20 hellish years who turned me over to satan... that was an interesting article on destruction...

    my dad sent me to a homeopath that was part of a ring of satan worshippers, i submitted to their 'treatments'.... that's where i went, that's how it happened... i don't know if it was my dad, i don't know if it was the evil of the satan worshippers, and finally, i don't know if it was God, because i was given the scripture 'it's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God' and i found it in a very SCARY few verses in Hebrews 10...

    i had, up until getting that scripture, thought it was the satan worshippers, but the fact that it has gone on for so long, with the Almighty holding my hand all the way, makes me think it WAS God who did this to me.

    to say that it is 'not a feel good experience' is the understatement of the eons lol and since i must admit there is a 'hell on earth' for people like i was... i have to admit there is a hell after death, only that it is remedial...

    i still find the entire process cruel, and i often complain to Yeshua, bitterly...

    'turned over to satan to learn not to blaspheme'... seems cruel... but if that's the only way God can do it... then, i guess that's that...

    today, Jesus gave me the faith that i'm already healed of it, and since 'faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, and the EVIDENCE of things not seen'... then i have it, and i'm assuming it will soon be over... but i would not wish what i have been thru on my worst enemy... and i would not be able to 'turn someone over to satan so they would learn not to blaspheme'

    it was not that long ago, that an atheist friend blasphemed God HORRIFICALLY in front of me, and it struck TERROR into my heart, not for me, not for God, but for HIM...

    i was an evil atheist like that... did i deserve 20 years of extreme torture? i really don't understand it all.
     
  2. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    shoot, sorry, i'm talking about my suffering again... it's real hard to converse about this... how can i talk about destruction like that, without my own experience of it?

    i think the big problem with blasphemy is that it turns all that is Good, into evil for the person... and the 'extreme torture' is needed to show the sin for what it is, and how far it can go.

    tell me, do you think that believing God will torture almost everyone FOR AN ETERNITY IN FLAMES, do you think that is blasphemy?

    I think it's important to remember that even if God 'let it'... that God and satan are NOT having the same agenda or the same nature in any way... Jesus is so unspeakably tender.

     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
  3. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    NeedHugs: I am sending an internet hug your way! I cannot image the suffering you have gone through, but the Healer will remove from you anything that resembles curse, every last bit of it!

    You are not alone! The following link is from an old man like me, who had a similar experience coming from the ghastly dogma of despair.

    Roger Tutt welcome to C.F.

    Hope 4 You, Roger Tutt
     
  4. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    oh my dog, that practically made me weep! it's such a cruel doctrine! it makes sensitive people completely insane, and if people AREN'T going insane from it, i honestly wonder about their character... thank you for the wonderful link... i'll explore it much!!

    i edited the post you answered... i have a question in it for you.

    wow, did you see his 'opinion' page??? wow
    inmyopinion

    to quote:
    "
    MY OPINION

    In my opinion, people who feel motivated to defend the doctrine of endless hell have been chosen by God to be vessels of the grossest dishonour, regardless as to how righteous the rest of their life appears to be. They have already sunk to the lowest level possible of moral debauchery.

    "

    that is scaring me SO BAD.... is it true? coz i used to believe... or tried to believe, i thought i had no choice but to believe in eternal torture.

    what is that scripture, i'm too panicky to look it up... something like 'God turns all over to unbelief, that He may have mercy on ALL'.... is being turned over to unbelief meaning we are turned over to being 'vessels of the grossest dishonour?'

    i don't understand all this suffering... WHY???

    i don't understand why universalists get so ANGRY at the ones who still believe the ghastly doctrine, i mean, but for the grace of God, there we walk, completely insane..

    but you know what i REALLY don't understand, esp it comes up after reading his opinions page... is WHY we have to be punished when Yeshua TOOK OUR PUNISHMENT FOR US???

    i think he is a little off in his opinions... don't you? he said wrong attitudes can't be forgiven!!!! gah!!!! EVERY sin was forgiven on the cross

    Yeshua DID take our punishment right?? 'by His stripes we are healed'

    i just don't understand why God told us to overcome evil with good, and this ''destruction'' is overcoming evil with evil... why 'turn over to satan??'

    i don't know how he's not driven insane by his own opinions now.... ugh... i'm panicking over here.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
  5. twin.spin

    twin.spin Trust the LORD and not on your own understanding

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    Jesus taught that what he spoke was the Father's words, not his own. John14:24 - John12:48-49
    Jesus taught there are only two types of people prior to death: John3:18 \ Mark16:16
    Jesus taught there will be only two types of people after the resurrection of all people: John5:28-29

    Jesus taught:
    "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words;
    the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken."
    John12:48-49​

    Jesus only taught the truth.
    Jesus only taught the truth for two reasons: (1) comfort the afflicted - (2) afflict the comfortable.

    Jesus taught about heaven and hell for two reasons: (1) comfort the afflicted - (2) afflict the comfortable.

    Jesus taught about where one will find themselves after death for two reasons: (1) comfort the afflicted - (2) afflict the comfortable.

    Jesus could have taught:
    There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day …
    but then those who reject are UR (a.k.a Universalism) anyway, otherwise I'd be a potential savior of all."
    but he didn't.

    Who are you going to trust that is telling the truth?
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
  6. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    i'm sorry, i didn't understand the point you are making... are you saying people that believe in UR are rejecting Jesus' words??

    Universalism isn't false hope for people who reject Christ!! I'M A CHRISTIAN AND I'M STILL BEING PUNISHED AND GOING THRU HELL...

    No universalist will tell you that there is no punishment... and why do you think it's going to be worse after death for people who don't accept ALL the truth of Christ's Words? because while here, we have the flesh, and God punishes the flesh... imagine how awful it will be after death to be punished by God!!! it's not false hope.

    it's in the Bible that the wicked do NOT learn righteousness with kindness from God... BUT WHEN THE JUDGEMENT FALLS, THEY WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS

    TRUST in God with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding... pray about His plan for salvation, ask Him if He will torture people for eternity... maybe He will start speaking to you about it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
  7. needhugs

    needhugs Flibbertyjibbet

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    i'm outtie, i can't take all this terror
     
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    i'm sorry, i didn't understand the point you are making... are you saying people that believe in UR are rejecting Jesus' words??
    Universalism isn't false hope for people who reject Christ!! I'M A CHRISTIAN AND I'M STILL BEING PUNISHED AND GOING THRU HELL...
    No universalist will tell you that there is no punishment... and why do you think it's going to be worse after death for people who don't accept ALL the truth of Christ's Words? because while here, we have the flesh, and God punishes the flesh... imagine how awful it will be after death to be punished by God!!! it's not false hope.
    If the unrepentant will be horribly punished after death how will that influence them to repent? The recidivism rate for prisons in the US is 66+%. Out of a thousand prisoners released 660+ will return. Many don't take responsibility for their actions they blame others; witnesses, judges, lawyer, juries etc. and try to harm them. Will they be filled with love for God who has punished them?
    What did Jesus say about the judgement?

    Matthew 7:22-23
    (22) Many will say to me in that [Judgement] day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Didn't Jesus already speak about it in the Bible? What about those who do not ask Jesus about His plan of Salvation?
    John 3:16-18
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

     
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Twin: The Master taught that when He is lifted up>>>>>>

    "I will draw/ draw with power/drag off" >>>>>

    "All/pas mankind unto Me."

    You evidently think "all mankind" is not the radical all, but alas, the Will of all wills prevails! Further more, we are commanded to teach >>>>>>>

    "God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe/trust in Him"

    "Command this and teach this"

    You will note: God is not a potential Saviour depending on how your little will responds>>>>>>>

    "He is the Saviour of all mankind"
     
  10. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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  11. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    DerAlter: You take yourself far too seriously! Take a few moments and learn a couple of lovely ideas for a happy life.

     
  12. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Originally Posted by Wardendresden [​IMG]
    "But as I stated it does not say He is righteousness, He is justice, He is holiness. It does say He is love.

    And since Jesus summed up the entire OT by stating love God with all your mind and strength and heart, and love your neighbor as yourself, why do you add to it by stating you have to be "righteous," or "not believe in universalism?"

    If one lives by love in all circumstances there is no sin that they can commit that will separate them from God.

    Yet you lift Scripture from the Bible as much as anyone else---because the Bible remains contradictory on many subjects. But if one applies LOVE to every subject in the Bible, one will always make the choices Jesus made. The Bible is full of inconsistencies, hundreds if not thousands of them. The only way to "reconcile" them is to have a yard mark. For me that yard mark is Jesus. Anything, any action, any purpose that does not fit in with how God in the Flesh revealed Himself to us means nothing at all.

    So what about universalism bothers you other than you "don't believe it." If God decides to save all is He somehow a lesser god than if He shows us all He can bring down fire and brimstone upon the greater part of humanity?

    I would suggest you read the book of James slowly and carefully once again--and then again---and then a third time in hopes that you will absorb the importance of love above all other attributes.

    As Paul said, "The greatest of these is love."

    FineLinen responds

    Warden: That my friend is a class post! Thank you for taking the time to share it with us.

    I have found 5 passages of Scripture that define the essence of our Creator and Lord.

    "God is love." 1 John 4.3

    "God is light." 1 John 1.5

    "God is Spirit." John 4.24

    "God is fire." Hebr. 12.29

    "God is Propitiation" 1 John 2.2

    All aspects of His Person flow from His Essence.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Sorry this is a discussion forum, not YouTube for sharing videos. I don't do videos or links unless they link credible sources which someone has quoted and I want more information. And OBTW I have a very happy life and wish others the same. Most unfortunate that you can't address my post.
     
  14. twin.spin

    twin.spin Trust the LORD and not on your own understanding

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    Realizing you have no intentions of hearing other than what you want to hear … and have left the building … these are the answers to your questions anyways:
    1) are you saying people that believe in UR are rejecting Jesus' words??
    A: Yes and No
    Yes, in a broad sense.
    Jesus taught about condemnation, hell, it's torment and that many will go there.
    In that sense people that believe in UR are rejecting Jesus' words.

    No, in the narrow sense.
    Scriptures teach what beliefs constitutes God's plan that is necessary for salvation:
    • The only true God is Triune aka "Deity"
    • Jesus is true God \ Jesus is true human "Immanuel"
    • Jesus is your personal substitute for sin: "We preach Christ crucified"
    • Jesus physically rose from the dead
    • saved by grace through faith
    • faith produces fruit that reflects saved by grace
    It is possible for a person to die with above beliefs and still hold on to the false teaching of UR and still be saved.

    It is the person who rejects any of the above and trusts otherwise in other gospel messages i.e. UR … not to mention those who preach other gospel plans (Galatians 1:8-9) --- will find their trust misplaced eternally.​

    2) why do you think it's going to be worse after death for people who don't accept ALL the truth of Christ's Words?
    A: Because it hasn't gone very well for humanity since when agreeing with the demonic question: "Did God really say?"

    3)
    imagine how awful it will be after death to be punished by God!!!

    A: I can't imagine hell's punishment other than Jesus did teach how awful it will be multiple times.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    The Greek word for perishing is used in Scripture for the "lost" sheep & coin that were later found:

    "8 “Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins[a] and loses one. Doesn’t she light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.’ 10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” (Lk.15:8-10)

    The word "eternal" (aionion), transliterated into English as eonian, and the noun aion (eon), which correspond to the Hebrew olam, are often used in Scripture & ancient writings of finite duration.

    Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum


    Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found.

    More literal versions say:

    16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

    16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

    16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

    16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

    Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They get saved later since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

    John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

    "But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

    http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalist.html
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Regarding the word "never" (Mt.7:23, etc)...this word appears to occur 16 times in the NT & it seems that it never means anything except "never". It is used of "love never fails" (1 Cor.13:8). It also occurs in Mt.7:23 where Jesus says "I never knew you; depart you from Me, those working lawlessness." Which is such an incredibly lame remark, if Love Omnipotent believed in endless torments. If He believed that such an unspeakably horrific final destiny awaits the wicked, including those He was referring to in Mt.7:23, why didn't He make it clear by telling them that they would "never" be saved and/or He would "never" know them? Would that not have been clear & unambiguous, unlike the words He spoke, & unlike the ambiguous aion & aionios, which often refer to finite duration in ancient Koine Greek? OTOH consider re the use of the word "never":

    "Philo saith, “The punishment of the wicked person is, ζην αποθανοντα αει, to live for ever dying, and to be for ever in pains, and griefs, and calamities that never cease..."
    Mark 9 Benson Commentary

    "Philo...uses the exact phraseology of Matt. 25:46, precisely as Christ used it: "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and æonian punishment (chastisement) from such as are more powerful."
    http://www.tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd3.html

    Where does Matthew 7:22-23 say "Depart from me and i will never love you anymore, but hate you with perfect hatred that has no end, as you deserve, as you roast alive in endless fires, being tormented for all eternity? I hate you so much that i wont even end your existence to mercifully put you out of your misery, but give you eternal life so i can cause you sorrow and pain without end."?

    Actually His remarks seem pretty lame & light in comparison to what He could have said, if He wanted to. "Depart from Me". Big deal! Compared to endless torments it's next to nothing.

    In that light, Mt.7:21-23 is more favorable to universalism than endless punishment.

    Mt.7:21 does not deny that all will eventually do God's will and enter the kingdom.
    Everyone starts out not doing God's will. Does that mean no one can enter the Kingdom of God and it will be empty forever?

    The verse places no time limits on when one can do the will of God.

    Matthew 7:23 refers to a "day", not final destiny when God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).

    Matthew 7 says some will not get into heaven on judgement day. It doesn't say they will never get into heaven. In fact they eventually will, as the same author wrote a few chapters earlier:

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How? You can leave that to God, but it is clear from Scripture that Love Omnipotent uses punishments to correct people. I suggest reading the entire Old Testament & New Testament passages such as 1 Cor.5:4-5:

    4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    Proverbs 23:14
    Strike him with a rod, and you will deliver his soul from Sheol.

    Job 5:17-18 “Behold, happy is the man whom God corrects; Therefore do not despise the chastening of the Almighty. For He bruises, but he binds up; He wounds, but His hands make whole.”

    Hab.1:12 O LORD my God, my Holy One, you who are eternal--surely you do not plan to wipe us out? O LORD, our Rock, you have sent these Babylonians to correct us, to punish us for our many sins.

    Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

    Isaiah 12:1
    Then you will say on that day, "I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me.

    Hosea 6:1
    "Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn us, but He will heal us; He has wounded us, but He will bandage us.

    Isa.57:17 “Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
    I hid My face and was angry, And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.

    18“I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
    I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

    Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

    Dan.4:33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.
    34a But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him...
    36 At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me.
    37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.

    When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9b)

    1 Cor.11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.



    See the verses above. Once they're saved, they'll be as happy with God as anyone else whom God has saved and allowed (or caused) to suffer, whether in this life or postmortem. Such as Job & those of the verses i quoted earlier.

    In universalism Love Omnipotent has all eternity to save everyone. Not just a few years as in your example. So He has an infinite number of chances to offer people to get saved. Mathematically that makes it impossible anyone would reject Him forever. His love doesn't have an expiry date like a carton of milk.

    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    If you expect me to continue in discussion with you please do not copy/paste the bulk of your posts from your pet UR websites.
     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Strawman. When there are no quotes then it didn't come from any "websites", UR or otherwise. Scripture verses sometimes excepted.
     
  20. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    "imagine how awful it will be after death to be punished by God!!!"

    My friend: The Father of all fathers punishes with one objective, and one objective ONLY, change and transformation! If any one is going to punish me, I will take His "Hand" any day!!!

    "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2018
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