The Rapture Event

[RandyPNW]

"There are many differences about this subject.
I do not have a solid opinion yet.
I'm responding because I do not agree with 1 particular point you made, that we have to go to heaven to be changed.
Can we enter heaven for this in our mortal bodies?
Scripture tells us "in the blink of an eye we changed" (paraphrasing)
We are made perfect in that blink of an eye, dressed in pure white, before entering heaven.
Jesus, I believe, was given His eternal, incorruptible body at the moment of resurrection.
But His comments about touching Him, I believe, are because touching anyone or thing in this world would disqualify Him from ascending to heaven that day to apply His blood on the Mercy Seat.
This act will make our entrance to The Most Holy place possible.
Therefore, we can come boldly before the throne"...

Yes, I once looked at it that way too, but don't any longer. It didn't make sense, ultimately, for me to think that somehow just touching the Lord would disturb his ability to go back to heaven. It seemed more natural that "touching him" was just an odd way of saying, "Don't try to detain me. I'm determined to go."

So yes, I don't think the mechanics and problems involved with mortal bodies going to heaven and returning in the same instant is the issue. The real issue is concerned with showing the source of our glorification, which is in heaven. The mortal body likely instantly disappears the moment the angels gather us, and we, in a sense are returning in new bodies within the same instant we leave for heaven.

The idea, again, is just to show from where we get our new bodies, rather than explain the mechanics of leaving and coming within a single second of time. It appears to me that Pretribbers want to make it a deal about saints flying to heaven, almost as if they are on a joy ride, when actually, it doesn't have a thing to do with anything more than being "seized" by angels, in order to instantly undergo a transformation.

"There are many differences about this subject.
I do not have a solid opinion yet.
I'm responding because I do not agree with 1 particular point you made, that we have to go to heaven to be changed.
Can we enter heaven for this in our mortal bodies?
Scripture tells us "in the blink of an eye we changed" (paraphrasing)
We are made perfect in that blink of an eye, dressed in pure white, before entering heaven.
Jesus, I believe, was given His eternal, incorruptible body at the moment of resurrection.
But His comments about touching Him, I believe, are because touching anyone or thing in this world would disqualify Him from ascending to heaven that day to apply His blood on the Mercy Seat.
This act will make our entrance to The Most Holy place possible.
Therefore, we can come boldly before the throne"...

Yes, I once looked at it that way too, but don't any longer. It didn't make sense, ultimately, for me to think that somehow just touching the Lord would disturb his ability to go back to heaven. It seemed more natural that "touching him" was just an odd way of saying, "Don't try to detain me. I'm determined to go."

So yes, I don't think the mechanics and problems involved with mortal bodies going to heaven and returning in the same instant is the issue. The real issue is concerned with showing the source of our glorification, which is in heaven. The mortal body likely instantly disappears the moment the angels gather us, and we, in a sense, are returning in new bodies within the same instant we leave for heaven.

The idea, again, is just to show from where we get our new bodies, rather than explain the mechanics of leaving and coming within a single second of time. It appears to me that Pretribbers want to make it a deal about saints flying to heaven, almost as if they are on a joy ride, when actually, it doesn't have a thing to do with anything more than being "seized" by angels, in order to instantly undergo a transformation.

Most of the problems have to do, I think, with turning this Rapture idea into a logistics problem when it really is just declaring that Christ is coming from heaven, and we must instantly go to be with him in order to return with him to reign on earth. 3 points:

1) We get our new glorified bodies in heaven, just as Christ himself ascended into heaven to be glorified.
2) We go to join our deceased brethren who are already in heaven with Christ in order to be glorified together with them.
3) The "rapture" is not the name of the event, but rather, a description of the event in which we are "seized" by angels. The event is rather called a "gathering" of the living saints on earth because the departed saints are already with Christ in heaven.

By all means, draw your own conclusions. This isn't a matter of fundamental doctrine of Salvation. But all truth has value. And so we work on this one.

 

[Jan001]

Revelation 20 is very clear when satan is bound and that there is 1,000 years UNTIL the rest of the dead are reserrected.

Satan Bound

1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

It seems to me that Scripture is very clear that all the dead will be physically resurrected at the same time.

John 5:28-30
“Do not be astonished at this,
for the hour is coming
when all those who are in their graves
will hear his voice
29 and will come forth from their graves.
Those who have done good deeds
will rise to life,
while those who have done evil
will rise to judgment.
30 “I can do nothing on my own.
As I hear, I judge,
and my judgment is just,
because I seek to do
not my own will
but the will of him who sent me.

I think the spirits of the righteous who were in Hades at the time of Jesus' resurrection (the first resurrection) were raised into heaven and they are the saints who are spiritually living and reigning with Jesus in heaven right now. They will spiritually reign with him there until Jesus returns to earth at the end of time. I think the thousand years is symbolic for an undetermined number of years, the time period between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming.

 

[RandyPNW]

Hi RandyPNW,

The four regimes could have been Babylon, the Medes, the Persians, and the Greeks.

Perhaps Daniel 7 symbolizes the coming of Jesus Christ's spiritual kingdom (his New Covenant, which includes both Jew and non-Jew). At the end of time, Jesus, our king, will judge all people according to his gospel.

No doubt you're right that God's overarching strategy involves not just Israel but "Spiritual Israel"--a name sometimes used for the universal Church. But I like to keep Israel, as a nation, distinct from other nations in the Church because I believe prophecy applies differently to different countries and involves particular events at different times.

For example, prophecy determined that Israel would be taken captive by ancient Babylon, which happened in 586 BC. But that didn't apply in the same way to other nations, many of whom never even faced Babylon. In God's Kingdom, nations remain distinct and are judged separately even though there is no partiality with God, and no discrimination with respect to race or nationality.

And even though Israel has, for a time, given up God's Kingdom for Rabbinic Judaism, and the International Church has now enjoyed the relationship with God that Israel once had, I don't think that's the end of Israel. Prophecy for Israel has promised a Final Deliverance, which has yet to take place.

So yes, I agree that the 4 Kingdoms are Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. And I believe that the Roman era continues, just as the figure of 2 long legs were applied to ancient Rome, which had 2 major branches, East and West.

So we are still experiencing the "Roman" stage of history, European Civilization having inherited a Roman culture that converted to Christianity and thus inherited God's Kingdom in the way Israel once had it. But the Kingdom, being near, is not actually yet.

God's Kingdom will be realized on earth only when Christ comes again, to defeat the "Man of Sin" and to deliver the Church, along with the nation Israel. Christianity will be restored on earth, and finally include the nation of Israel! My beliefs only....

 

[RandyPNW]

Hi Randy,

I agree that the rapture is not immanent. It will be when the Lord by His Holy Spirit has brought the Body to maturity in Him. (Eph. 4: 13)

As to Matt. 24: 29 that is for Israel and the nations. The truth of the rapture was NOT revealed to them but the Body of Christ when the Lord ascended to the Father. It is then that the Lord gave the Apostle Paul the truths of the Body of Christ and His purpose for them.

Hi Marilyn. We agree on a lot, but apparently not my own belief? That's okay. We discuss it because none of us have all the answers.

I'm glad you don't live every day thinking "Jesus could come today!" That would be "flaky" of God to convey to us His Son can return on any day when in reality God has already pre-set a day for this!

It really doesn't require the fear that "Jesus could come today" to promote holy living. Just the fact he is coming soon should prompt us to fear judgment so that we live holy lives today and every day?

I don't think the "Rapture" was a mystery as an idea, since it clearly existed for Enoch and for Elijah. And the 2 Witnesses in Revelation apparently will be "raptured," as well?

What Paul called a "mystery" was the realization of OT Israel coming to inherit many nations of faith along with their own national hope. The dividing line between pagan Gentile and believing Israel would be brought down--kind of like the Berlin Wall coming down towards the end of the Cold War.

The OT Prophets did not clearly see this, though they did mention it and foretell it in less than direct terms. But the promise was clearly there, even though the means was not described.

So what Israel was to enjoy the nations that accept Christ were to enjoy as well. The hope of heaven was to be the hope of all Christians, and not just Israel. Going to heaven to be resurrected was to be for the entire Church, and not just for the Jewish Church.

The "Rapture" was not a "mystery" conceptually because no such event is named as such so that it cannot have been foretold with that name. The "rapture" just describes the fact Christians alive when Christ returns will be seized by angels--it is not the name of the event.

The event is actually called a "gathering" by angels, as Jesus applied that event to Jewish believers while he was speaking still under the era of Law. That's when only Israel was God's People, and only they were being directly referred to.

But conceptually, Jesus intended for the gathering of saints to apply to all believers universally because after the Cross he called for his apostles to preach the Gospel to *all nations.* And so, Paul applied the event we call "the Rapture" to all believers, and not just to Jewish believers who are gathered by angels at the coming of the Son of Man.

 

[Marilyn C]

 

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[eleos1954]

It seems to me that Scripture is very clear that all the dead will be physically resurrected at the same time.

John 5:28-30
“Do not be astonished at this,
for the hour is coming
when all those who are in their graves
will hear his voice
29 and will come forth from their graves.
Those who have done good deeds
will rise to life,
while those who have done evil
will rise to judgment.
30 “I can do nothing on my own.
As I hear, I judge,
and my judgment is just,
because I seek to do
not my own will
but the will of him who sent me.

I think the spirits of the righteous who were in Hades at the time of Jesus' resurrection (the first resurrection) were raised into heaven and they are the saints who are spiritually living and reigning with Jesus in heaven right now. They will spiritually reign with him there until Jesus returns to earth at the end of time. I think the thousand years is symbolic for an undetermined number of years, the time period between Jesus' resurrection and his second coming.

Scripture states we will received glorified bodies. It is a different kind of body .... non perishable 1 Corinthians 15 gives a clue

46The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so also are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man.

When Jesus appeared on the mount of transfiguration He was seen as himself, yet in a glorious light. Jesus later appeared in His human bodily form to the apostles and also stated ... “A spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have” in Luke 24:39 so we will have flesh and bones like He did ... we will be like Him in that manner ... a new glorious non perishable human body.

Hades/hell is the grave ... not some "conscious burning place" ... at earthly death our body turns to dust.

All wait dormant in the grave until Jesus returns and the saved are resurrected and meet the Lord in the air. We go to heaven for the 1,000 years. The millennium is spent in heaven not on earth. Jesus did everything necessary to provide the way to salvation as a gift the first time He came ... what is left is judgement. All (no matter who they are) have the opportunity to come to Him ... until He returns.

When Jesus returns judgement for all for all time has happened but full execution of that judgement (the full end) don't take place until after the 2nd resurrection (of the condemned) that happens 1,000 years later after the 1st reserrection.

The Bible is very clear we are mortal and remain that way until Jesus returns. We DO NOT have a immortal "spirit" that goes somewhere when we die from earthly death.

 

[keras]

All wait dormant in the grave until Jesus returns and the saved are resurrected and meet the Lord in the air. We go to heaven for the 1,000 years.

This is not what the Prophetic Word tell us at all.
Yes; the dead are dormant and they remain that way until the final Judgment; AFTER the Millennium;. Revelation 20:5 could not be clearer.
Only the GT martyrs will be resurrected by Jesus at His Return and them just back to mortal life.

We all need to be ready to stand firm in our faith, when the great test by fire comes. 1 Peter 4:12

 

[eleos1954]

This is not what the Prophetic Word tell us at all.
Yes; the dead are dormant and they remain that way until the final Judgment; AFTER the Millennium;. Revelation 20:5 could not be clearer.
Only the GT martyrs will be resurrected by Jesus at His Return and them just back to mortal life.

We all need to be ready to stand firm in our faith, when the great test by fire comes. 1 Peter 4:12

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29 NKJV

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first (not just the martyrs). 1 Thessalonians 4:16 NKJV

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ (not just the martyrs) will be the first to rise (not just the martyrs). 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[Grafted In]

Eleos1954, you wrote that

Yes, I once looked at it that way too, but don't any longer. It didn't make sense, ultimately, for me to think that somehow just touching the Lord would disturb his ability to go back to heaven. It seemed more natural that "touching him" was just an odd way of saying, "Don't try to detain me. I'm determined to go."

So yes, I don't think the mechanics and problems involved with mortal bodies going to heaven and returning in the same instant is the issue. The real issue is concerned with showing the source of our glorification, which is in heaven. The mortal body likely instantly disappears the moment the angels gather us, and we, in a sense are returning in new bodies within the same instant we leave for heaven.

The idea, again, is just to show from where we get our new bodies, rather than explain the mechanics of leaving and coming within a single second of time. It appears to me that Pretribbers want to make it a deal about saints flying to heaven, almost as if they are on a joy ride, when actually, it doesn't have a thing to do with anything more than being "seized" by angels, in order to instantly undergo a transformation.

Yes, I once looked at it that way too, but don't any longer. It didn't make sense, ultimately, for me to think that somehow just touching the Lord would disturb his ability to go back to heaven. It seemed more natural that "touching him" was just an odd way of saying, "Don't try to detain me. I'm determined to go."

So yes, I don't think the mechanics and problems involved with mortal bodies going to heaven and returning in the same instant is the issue. The real issue is concerned with showing the source of our glorification, which is in heaven. The mortal body likely instantly disappears the moment the angels gather us, and we, in a sense, are returning in new bodies within the same instant we leave for heaven.

The idea, again, is just to show from where we get our new bodies, rather than explain the mechanics of leaving and coming within a single second of time. It appears to me that Pretribbers want to make it a deal about saints flying to heaven, almost as if they are on a joy ride, when actually, it doesn't have a thing to do with anything more than being "seized" by angels, in order to instantly undergo a transformation.

Most of the problems have to do, I think, with turning this Rapture idea into a logistics problem when it really is just declaring that Christ is coming from heaven, and we must instantly go to be with him in order to return with him to reign on earth. 3 points:

1) We get our new glorified bodies in heaven, just as Christ himself ascended into heaven to be glorified.
2) We go to join our deceased brethren who are already in heaven with Christ in order to be glorified together with them.
3) The "rapture" is not the name of the event, but rather, a description of the event in which we are "seized" by angels. The event is rather called a "gathering" of the living saints on earth because the departed saints are already with Christ in heaven.

By all means, draw your own conclusions. This isn't a matter of fundamental doctrine of Salvation. But all truth has value. And so we work on this one.

Where is it written that angels will harvest at the 'Rapture'?

 

[Grafted In]

Why do you believe those Christ led captive aren't with those He will gather at the rapture?

Seems like you are saying they may not become part of the bride of Christ. That they will dwell with God but not become one with Him?