The Rapture Event

[keras]

• 1 Corinthians 15:22–23: The resurrection of the just precedes the resurrection of the unjust

“And the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thessalonians 4:16,

This belief is a direct contradiction of Rev 20:4-6, where it is plainly stated that ONLY the GT martyrs will be raised when Jesus Returns.
1 Thess 4:16 does NOT say 'all' the dead in Christ.

It is not just contrary to scripture that all the dead must await the GWT Judgment, but also it is illogical and impossible, as those martyrs raised at the Return, do not yet receive immortality. That is assured to them, when they stand along with everyone who has ever lived; before God sitting on the Great White Throne.

 

[eleos1954]

This belief is a direct contradiction of Rev 20:4-6, where it is plainly stated that ONLY the GT martyrs will be raised when Jesus Returns.
1 Thess 4:16 does NOT say 'all' the dead in Christ.

It is not just contrary to scripture that all the dead must await the GWT Judgment, but also it is illogical and impossible, as those martyrs raised at the Return, do not yet receive immortality. That is assured to them, when they stand along with everyone who has ever lived; before God sitting on the Great White Throne.

The righteous dead are not made immortal until they are raised at the second advent of Jesus (when He returns) (1 Corinthians 15:51-54). Then they are taken to heaven to be with their Lord (1 Thessalonians. 4:16-18).

 

[Jan001]

The righteous dead are not made immortal until they are raised at the second advent of Jesus (when He returns) (1 Corinthians 15:51-54). Then they are taken to heaven to be with their Lord (1 Thessalonians. 4:16-18).

Their spirits/souls have always been immortal. They will receive their immortal physical bodies at Jesus' second coming.

Every person is created with an immortal spirit/soul. A spirit cannot lose its immortality; however, it can spend eternity in the lake of fire.


Mark 9:43-45

Luke 16:19-31

 

[keras]

The righteous dead are not made immortal until they are raised at the second advent of Jesus (when He returns) (1 Corinthians 15:51-54). Then they are taken to heaven to be with their Lord (1 Thessalonians. 4:16-18).

Their spirits/souls have always been immortal. They will receive their immortal physical bodies at Jesus' second coming.

You are both wrong, but hey: just keep on in your fanciful dreams.
The Lord is not going to change what He has told us He has planned, which is only after the Millennium will anyone receive immortality.

 

[Jan001]

You are both wrong, but hey: just keep on in your fanciful dreams.
The Lord is not going to change what He has told us He has planned, which is only after the Millennium will anyone receive immortality.

Jesus has told us what he will do. He will return physically to earth only one time and it will occur at the end of time at the sound of the last trumpet. Jesus does not physically come to earth to physically rule in Jerusalem for a literal one thousand years. His throne is in heaven. Hebrews 8:1, Acts 7:47-51

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to bring salvation to those who are eagerly waiting for him.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 Listen while I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the sound of the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must be clothed with the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 Indeed, we can assure you, on the word of the Lord himself, that we who are still alive at the coming of the Lord will not have any advantage over those who have fallen asleep. 16 When the command is given, at the sound of the archangel’s voice and the call of God’s trumpet, the Lord himself will descend from heaven, and those who have died in Christ will be the first to rise.
17 Then those of us who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them on clouds in the air to meet the Lord. And so, we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

It seems to me that you do not understand that the so-called "millennium" is symbolic for the indefinite time period between the first coming of Jesus Christ to earth and his second coming to earth at the end of time.

It seems to me that you do not understand that the so-called "thousand years" that Satan is chained is also an indefinite time period. These two "thousand years" time periods do not need to match perfectly. We know that Satan will receive his full power back before Jesus' second coming. I think Satan has already received his full power back.

I think Satan was released in the 20th Century: World War I, World War II, Korean War, Vietnam War, Many Other Wars, No-Fault Divorce Legalized, Contraception Legalized, Abortion Legalized, Homosexuality Legalized, Euthanasia Legalized, Unnatural "Marriage" Legalized, Atomic Bombs Used & Nuclear Bombs Invented, Changing Your Sex Legalized, Weaponizing Vaccines, etc.

 

[keras]

It seems to me that you do not understand that the so-called "millennium" is symbolic for the indefinite time period between the first coming of Jesus Christ to earth and his second coming to earth at the end of time.

I understand the truths of the Bible when I read them.
So when a theory like AMillinniumism is promoted, I reject it because it makes plainly stated scripture into symbols, or spiritualizes it and simply does not comply with the present situation.

I think Satan was released in the 20th Century: World War I, World War II, Korean War, Vietnam War, Many Other Wars, No-Fault Divorce Legalized, Contraception Legalized, Abortion Legalized, Homosexuality Legalized, Euthanasia Legalized, Unnatural "Marriage" Legalized, Atomic Bombs Used & Nuclear Bombs Invented, Changing Your Sex Legalized, Weaponizing Vaccines, etc.

These things are the labour pangs of the new age. Which will be the thousand year reign of Jesus as King of Kings; on earth.

 

[Jan001]

I understand the truths of the Bible when I read them.
So when a theory like AMillinniumism is promoted, I reject it because it makes plainly stated scripture into symbols, or spiritualizes it and simply does not comply with the present situation.

These things are the labour pangs of the new age. Which will be the thousand year reign of Jesus as King of Kings; on earth.

Please show us using Scripture, without quoting the Book of Revelation, that there will be a literal one-thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ on earth in Jerusalem before the end of time. We can then learn for sure and for certain that you are correct in your teaching that the Book of Revelation is meant to be a literal book and not a symbolic book.


We teachers of the Scriptures will face a stricter judgment if we mislead people by our teachings.

James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers and sisters, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

 

[keras]

Please show us using Scripture, without quoting the Book of Revelation, that there will be a literal one-thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ on earth in Jerusalem before the end of time. We can then learn for sure and for certain that you are correct in your teaching that the Book of Revelation is meant to be a literal book and not a symbolic book.

Revelation 20 is sufficient proof, however the fact of the exact 2000 year tranches between Adam to Abraham, from Abraham to Jesus and now almost completed; 2000 years from the Ascencion to the Return of Jesus - then the 'Sabbath' of the thousand years, which completes the 7000 year Plan of God for physical mankind.
I use 47 scriptures of given time periods; Patriarchs and kings, plus the elapsed time since the known date of the Babylonian conquest, establish the truth of this.
I have posted this article on the forums before, but now if you are serious, you can view it on my logostelos.info website. Subject:- Sequence.

James 3:1, is a warning to us all. Obviously, with the differences we have and the huge deceptions out there, many will be asked by the Lord: Why did you teach things that were never Prophesied in the Bible, I gave you?

 

[Jan001]

Revelation 20 is sufficient proof, however the fact of the exact 2000 year tranches between Adam to Abraham, from Abraham to Jesus and now almost completed; 2000 years from the Ascencion to the Return of Jesus - then the 'Sabbath' of the thousand years, which completes the 7000 year Plan of God for physical mankind.
I use 47 scriptures of given time periods; Patriarchs and kings, plus the elapsed time since the known date of the Babylonian conquest, establish the truth of this.
I have posted this article on the forums before, but now if you are serious, you can view it on my logostelos.info website. Subject:- Sequence.

James 3:1, is a warning to us all. Obviously, with the differences we have and the huge deceptions out there, many will be asked by the Lord: Why did you teach things that were never Prophesied in the Bible, I gave you?

Where in Scripture is this 7000-year plan?

What if, instead of what you believe, God has planned for mankind to continue on earth until the number of righteous humans equals the number of unrighteous angels that were cast out of heaven?

Jesus personally told his hearers that the greatest tribulation of all time would occur within 40 years. It did.

 

[Jan001]

These things are the labour pangs of the new age. Which will be the thousand year reign of Jesus as King of Kings; on earth.

What do you think will be the purpose for Jesus to physically reign in Jerusalem in Israel for a literal one thousand years? After this reign, what happens next?

Acts 7:49 ‘Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house will you build for me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest?

Jesus said:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not from this world. If my kingdom were from this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not from here.”

Jesus' kingdom is a spiritual kingdom. His spirit lives in all his temples: our souls.

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God, and that you are not your own?

Why would Jesus leave heaven to come to earth to live? He told us he was going to his Father's house in heaven to prepare a place for us there so that we can always be with him.

John 14:1-3 Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may be also.

Why would Jesus desert his people in heaven for a thousand years in order to come and live on earth?

 

[keras]

Where in Scripture is this 7000-year plan?

I told you; it is in the many time periods as given. If you won't look at it, I won't post it.

What if, instead of what you believe, God has planned for mankind to continue on earth until the number of righteous humans equals the number of unrighteous angels that were cast out of heaven?

Speculation, bereft of any Biblical support.

Jesus personally told his hearers that the greatest tribulation of all time would occur within 40 years. It did.

What nonsense!
Even the small wars of recent times eclipse the Roman conquest of Jerusalen in 70 AD. Plus many other disasters.

What do you think will be the purpose for Jesus to physically reign in Jerusalem in Israel for a literal one thousand years? After this reign, what happens next?

It will be His reward. As many Prophesies say;; the ones which made the Jewish Leaders reject Jesus. thinking the Messiah would came as conquering King. Which He will, very soon!

Jesus' kingdom is a spiritual kingdom. His spirit lives in all his temples: our souls.

True - for this Church age, but not permanent.

Why would Jesus leave heaven to come to earth to live? He told us he was going to his Father's house in heaven to prepare a place for us there so that we can always be with him.

Jesus said: I will come again, Be ready, for you do not know the Day.
The place being prepared, is the new Jerusalem, as Revelation 21 & 22, describe. It will come here; we never go to heaven.

Why would Jesus desert his people in heaven for a thousand years in order to come and live on earth?

What people in heaven?
This is a prime example of the wrong ideas and confusion about what God has planned for mankind.
There is no scripture which says living people are in heaven. After the Millennium, God and therefore heaven, comes to the new earth. Rev 22:3

 

[Jan001]

What nonsense!
Even the small wars of recent times eclipse the Roman conquest of Jerusalen in 70 AD. Plus many other disasters.

Jesus claimed that the severe persecution of his followers by the unbelieving Jews would be the great tribulation.

In Matthew 23, Jesus condemns the scribes and Pharisees.

Matthew 23:29-36 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous, 30 and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your ancestors. 33 You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets, sages, and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 35 so that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come upon this generation.

In Matthew 24, Jesus foretells the destruction of the temple as their punishment.

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

In Matthew 10, Jesus states that the unbelieving Jews will flog his followers in their synagogues.

Acts 8:1 That day a severe persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout the countryside of Judea and Samaria.

Since you do not believe that this great tribulation against Jesus' followers has already occurred in the first century AD, when do you think the Jews will be numerous enough to be able to drag Christians into their synagogues, flog them, and crucify them?

 

[crixus]

I'm a Premillennialist. It is not inconsistent with my eschatology.

I agree.

 

[keras]

In Matthew 24, Jesus foretells the destruction of the temple as their punishment.

Yes, the Roamn conquest, the many deaths and the rest taken into slavery, was the punishment of Jews at that time.

In Matthew 10, Jesus states that the unbelieving Jews will flog his followers in their synagogues.

That did happen to the Apostles. It is not said to happen in the end times.

Since you do not believe that this great tribulation against Jesus' followers has already occurred in the first century AD, when do you think the Jews will be numerous enough to be able to drag Christians into their synagogues, flog them, and crucify them?

Never.
We are plainly told that the Jewish State of Israel will be gone and only a remnant of the House of Judah will survive. Isaiah 22:14
They will be so ashamed of their sins, they will never speak out again. Ezekiel 16:63

I agree.

Your avatar says: The truth will set you free.
Seems you are in bondage to the false and unbiblical theory of a 'rapture to heaven'.

 

[Jan001]

We are plainly told that the Jewish State of Israel will be gone and only a remnant of the House of Judah will survive. Isaiah 22:14
They will be so ashamed of their sins, they will never speak out again. Ezekiel 16:63

I agree with you that only a remnant will be saved. Romans 11:1-6, Romans 11:25-27

Before Jesus returns for his second coming, the "remnant" will accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah and they will join his Church.

Of course, some of the "remnant" were saved during the past 2000 years.

The present Israel is a secular state. Unfortunately, some overzealous influential Christians who did not understand Scripture decided to "help" Israel become a nation again. Today, some misguided Christians also want to help them build a new temple so that they can offer animal sacrifices again. Now, that would truly be an abomination.

 

[Jan001]

Why did Paul say that we will meet Him "in the air" .....

In the OT, there would be watchmen, waiting and watching for the return of their king and his army from battle. When a watchman first saw them afar off in the distance, he would quickly tell the people in the city. The people would then hurry out of the city to meet them, and then the people would accompany the king and his soldiers back to the city. I think that after we meet Jesus in the air, we accompany him to the judgment throne.

1 Samuel 18: 5-6 David went out and was successful wherever Saul sent him; as a result, Saul set him over the army. And all the people, even the servants of Saul, approved. 6 As they were coming home, when David returned from killing the Philistine, the women came out of all the towns of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet King Saul, with tambourines, with songs of joy, and with musical instruments.

 

[Marilyn C]

Matt 24.29 Immediately after the distress of those days
‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

I mean no offence to my brothers who are Dispensational and Pretribulational, because that is what I once was, as well, and that is the position of my church. But I have to advance what I believe--not what others believe.

So respectfully, I do not see an imminent Rapture here, ie belief that Christ could come "at any time." I do not see Jesus calling upon us to expect him imminently, that we should continually expect that he can come at any moment.

Rather, I see here Jesus put our gaze on a future event that will end the present age, when he will come again to gather up, through his angels, his people who have been waiting for him and living for him. We are called to look for him, and in this way curb our ungodly ways and determine to live godly lives in expectation that he will judge the whole world by his righteousness.

Our anticipation of his coming, therefore, determines how we live. And this is to be the kind of expectation we are to have, even as we await his coming to terminate the present ungodly age.

It is said that in the above reference there is no evidence of a "Rapture" event. Well, that may be because the Bible does not refer to Christ's Coming, to gather his saints, as a "Rapture." Rather, it is here referred to as a gathering by angels at the sound of a trumpet.

On the other hand, Paul describes this event as a "Rapture," not calling the event that name, but describing it as such. When we are gathered, we do not rise of our own accord, but are rather, "seized" by angels, to deliver us by the powers of heaven, and not by our own strength or ability.

So we may call it a "Rapture" if we like because that is how it is so described. But the event is called, biblically, as a gathering of saints, when the Son of Man returns from heaven with the clouds.

And where does this teaching come from? It comes from Daniel 7, where the Son of Man is said to have conferred with God his Father in heaven, receiving the mandate that will destroy the Antichrist and establish God's Kingdom on earth. In that place we are told that the Son of Man will come to earth, defeat the Little Horn, and deliver the saints from his abuses. In my view this is not an imminent event to be expected, but rather, the ultimate result of our waiting for it.

So how are we to relate this "gathering of the saints" to what Paul described as a "Rapture" in 1 Thes 4? At the time Jesus said this he was still under the Law and addressing only Israel. The "saints" he addressed at that time were Jewish believers, and not the international Church, though later this lesson can be applied to us all.

So Jesus was describing the future history of Israel, as only a remnant would be saved, and the many would be scattered across the earth in the Jewish Diaspora. Israel's national salvation would take place only after the return of the Son of Man.

And so, Jesus described this ultimate salvation of the nation addressing the Jewish saints of his time, while they were sitll under the Law. And now, we can apply this to all Christians, which is precisely what Paul did in 1 Thess 4.

When the Son of Man returns from heaven, we are gathered up to heaven by the angels of heaven. And we do so because we must do what Christ did when he said, "Do not hold me because I must return to my Father in heaven."

And so, we must, in order to be fully glorified, go to heaven to where the Son of Man is, to obtain from him our glorified bodies. In this way we may return with him in glory to establish his glorious Kingdom on the earth. And I believe this will happen immediately, in a moment of time.

So the mechanics of our leaving and returning with him is not the significant thing. What matters is that we be glorified with the Son of Man in order to enter into his rule together with him, so that the Kingdom may be established among mortal men on the earth.

Hi Randy,

I agree that the rapture is not immanent. It will be when the Lord by His Holy Spirit has brought the Body to maturity in Him. (Eph. 4: 13)

As to Matt. 24: 29 that is for Israel and the nations. The truth of the rapture was NOT revealed to them but the Body of Christ when the Lord ascended to the Father. It is then that the Lord gave the Apostle Paul the truths of the Body of Christ and His purpose for them.

 

[Jan001]

What people in heaven?
This is a prime example of the wrong ideas and confusion about what God has planned for mankind.
There is no scripture which says living people are in heaven. After the Millennium, God and therefore heaven, comes to the new earth. Rev 22:3

The righteous people.
Their spirits go to their own place after they physically die. As soon as they die, they are judged. Their spirits/souls then go to the place that Jesus had already prepared for them after he ascended into heaven.

Hebrews 9:27-28 And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

John 14:1-3 Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may be also.

The rich man died, was judged, and then his spirit/soul went to his own place in hell. Luke 16:24

The betrayer, Judas, died, was judged, and then his spirit/soul went to his own place. Acts 1:25

Revelation 6:9-10 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?”11 They were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number would be complete both of their fellow servants and of their brothers and sisters, who were soon to be killed as they themselves had been killed.

I think these souls/spirits were avenged in 70 AD. Peter and Paul were perhaps two of the martyrs who would be joining them soon. They were killed in about the year 64 AD. (I think the Book of Revelation was written in the early 60s AD because John was told to "go measure the temple." It would have to still be in Jerusalem in order for him to measure it.)



After Jesus died on the cross, his spirit/soul went to Hades. He preached to the righteous spirits/souls who were in Abraham's bosom.

1 Peter 4:5-6 But they will have to give an accounting to him who stands ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.

After Jesus died, he also went to the prison place in Hades to preach to the righteous prisoners there. These righteous people were not in Abraham's bosom, a place of refreshment. These spirits in the prison had repented before they died, but they had not yet paid the last penny that they owed for their sins. Galatians 6:7, Matthew 5:25-26

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.


This is my opinion about these Scripture verses.

 

[Grafted In]

Matt 24.29 Immediately after the distress of those days
‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

I mean no offence to my brothers who are Dispensational and Pretribulational, because that is what I once was, as well, and that is the position of my church. But I have to advance what I believe--not what others believe.

So respectfully, I do not see an imminent Rapture here, ie belief that Christ could come "at any time." I do not see Jesus calling upon us to expect him imminently, that we should continually expect that he can come at any moment.



And where does this teaching come from? It comes from Daniel 7, where the Son of Man is said to have conferred with God his Father in heaven, receiving the mandate that will destroy the Antichrist and establish God's Kingdom on earth. In that place we are told that the Son of Man will come to earth, defeat the Little Horn, and deliver the saints from his abuses. In my view this is not an imminent event to be expected, but rather, the ultimate result of our waiting for it.

So how are we to relate this "gathering of the saints" to what Paul described as a "Rapture" in 1 Thes 4? At the time Jesus said this he was still under the Law and addressing only Israel. The "saints" he addressed at that time were Jewish believers, and not the international Church, though later this lesson can be applied to us all.

So Jesus was describing the future history of Israel, as only a remnant would be saved, and the many would be scattered across the earth in the Jewish Diaspora. Israel's national salvation would take place only after the return of the Son of Man.

And so, Jesus described this ultimate salvation of the nation addressing the Jewish saints of his time, while they were sitll under the Law. And now, we can apply this to all Christians, which is precisely what Paul did in 1 Thess 4.

When the Son of Man returns from heaven, we are gathered up to heaven by the angels of heaven. And we do so because we must do what Christ did when he said, "Do not hold me because I must return to my Father in heaven."

And so, we must, in order to be fully glorified, go to heaven to where the Son of Man is, to obtain from him our glorified bodies. In this way we may return with him in glory to establish his glorious Kingdom on the earth. And I believe this will happen immediately, in

Matt 24.29 Immediately after the distress of those days
‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

I mean no offence to my brothers who are Dispensational and Pretribulational, because that is what I once was, as well, and that is the position of my church. But I have to advance what I believe--not what others believe.

So respectfully, I do not see an imminent Rapture here, ie belief that Christ could come "at any time." I do not see Jesus calling upon us to expect him imminently, that we should continually expect that he can come at any moment.

Rather, I see here Jesus put our gaze on a future event that will end the present age, when he will come again to gather up, through his angels, his people who have been waiting for him and living for him. We are called to look for him, and in this way curb our ungodly ways and determine to live godly lives in expectation that he will judge the whole world by his righteousness.

Our anticipation of his coming, therefore, determines how we live. And this is to be the kind of expectation we are to have, even as we await his coming to terminate the present ungodly age.

It is said that in the above reference there is no evidence of a "Rapture" event. Well, that may be because the Bible does not refer to Christ's Coming, to gather his saints, as a "Rapture." Rather, it is here referred to as a gathering by angels at the sound of a trumpet.

On the other hand, Paul describes this event as a "Rapture," not calling the event that name, but describing it as such. When we are gathered, we do not rise of our own accord, but are rather, "seized" by angels, to deliver us by the powers of heaven, and not by our own strength or ability.

So we may call it a "Rapture" if we like because that is how it is so described. But the event is called, biblically, as a gathering of saints, when the Son of Man returns from heaven with the clouds.

And where does this teaching come from? It comes from Daniel 7, where the Son of Man is said to have conferred with God his Father in heaven, receiving the mandate that will destroy the Antichrist and establish God's Kingdom on earth. In that place we are told that the Son of Man will come to earth, defeat the Little Horn, and deliver the saints from his abuses. In my view this is not an imminent event to be expected, but rather, the ultimate result of our waiting for it.

So how are we to relate this "gathering of the saints" to what Paul described as a "Rapture" in 1 Thes 4? At the time Jesus said this he was still under the Law and addressing only Israel. The "saints" he addressed at that time were Jewish believers, and not the international Church, though later this lesson can be applied to us all.

So Jesus was describing the future history of Israel, as only a remnant would be saved, and the many would be scattered across the earth in the Jewish Diaspora. Israel's national salvation would take place only after the return of the Son of Man.

And so, Jesus described this ultimate salvation of the nation addressing the Jewish saints of his time, while they were sitll under the Law. And now, we can apply this to all Christians, which is precisely what Paul did in 1 Thess 4.

When the Son of Man returns from heaven, we are gathered up to heaven by the angels of heaven. And we do so because we must do what Christ did when he said, "Do not hold me because I must return to my Father in heaven."

And so, we must, in order to be fully glorified, go to heaven to where the Son of Man is, to obtain from him our glorified bodies. In this way we may return with him in glory to establish his glorious Kingdom on the earth. And I believe this will happen immediately, in a moment of time.

So the mechanics of our leaving and returning with him is not the significant thing. What matters is that we be glorified with the Son of Man in order to enter into his rule together with him, so that the Kingdom may be established among mortal men on the earth.

"There are many differences about this subject.
I do not have a solid opinion yet.
I'm responding because I do not agree with 1 particular point you made, that we have to go to heaven to be changed.
Can we enter heaven for this in our mortal bodies?
Scripture tells us "in the blink of an eye we changed" (paraphrasing)
We are made perfect in that blink of an eye, dressed in pure white, before entering heaven.
Jesus, I believe, was given His eternal, incorruptible body at the moment of resurrection.
But His comments about touching Him, I believe, are because touching anyone or thing in this world would disqualify Him from ascending to heaven that day to apply His blood on the Mercy Seat.
This act will make our entrance to The Most Holy place possible.
Therefore, we can come boldly before the throne"...

 

[Jan001]

And where does this teaching come from? It comes from Daniel 7, where the Son of Man is said to have conferred with God his Father in heaven, receiving the mandate that will destroy the Antichrist and establish God's Kingdom on earth. In that place we are told that the Son of Man will come to earth, defeat the Little Horn, and deliver the saints from his abuses. In my view this is not an imminent event to be expected, but rather, the ultimate result of our waiting for it.

Hi RandyPNW,

The four regimes could have been Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome.

Perhaps Daniel 7 symbolizes the coming of Jesus Christ's spiritual kingdom (his New Covenant, which includes both Jew and non-Jew). At the end of time, Jesus, our king, will judge all people according to his gospel.