The Rapture Event

[Jan001]

Doesn't appear to be so .... there was Enoch and Elijah

They have never died. They were not physically living in the literal third heaven with God. 2 Corinthians 12:2
Jesus as a man did not ascend into heaven until after his resurrection from the dead. No one had entered into the third heaven to be with God until after Jesus' death and resurrection from the dead. Adam's sin had made it impossible for any human being to enter into the third heaven to be with God. Genesis 3:24, Romans 5:10

Jesus plainly stated:

John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

and then there is Moses

Jude 9 suggests that Moses was resurrected, and the New Testament describes a dispute over Moses' body between Christ and the devil.

Moses was present with Elijah at the transfiguration

ok ... why so? As examples to show people can and will in the future enter heaven by either resurrection or by being translated (not experiencing earthly death)

Moses died in the desert. Deuteronomy 34:5-7 His spirit was in Hades awaiting the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and so he also had not yet ascended into the literal third heaven to be with God. The apostles did see a vision of two men (Moses and Elijah) talking with Jesus. This vision represented the fact that Jesus was sent to earth to fulfil the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah).

Jesus Christ came to earth to fulfill/complete/finish the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.

Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were in effect until John came; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is proclaimed, and everyone tries to enter it by force.

Luke 24:44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you—that everything written about me in the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms must be fulfilled.”

At the end of time, the Christians who are still on the earth will rise to meet Jesus in the air. As they begin to rise, their mortal bodies will become immortal bodies, and so they will never physically die. 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

 

[Jan001]

Just asking , where do you find the Greek word RAPTURE as I yet to find that Greek word ??

I do see the Greek word COMING //PAROUSAI in 2 Thess 2:1 !!

And i 2 thess 2:3 see the Greek word DEPARTURE // APOSTTIA and see it in Acts 21:21 !!

Also seen COMMING // PROUSIA in 1 Thess 3:13

Also seen in 1 Thess 4:17 , CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO

And in Gal 1:4 the word RESCUE // XAIREO , means to deliver .

dan p

I Thessalonicenses 4:17 Deinde nos, qui vivimus, qui relinquimur, simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Christo in aera, et sic semper cum Domino erimus.

 

[Jan001]

I've had this dialogue a thousand times and all I have to say is let's just wait and see. God always pulled his chosen out of major judgments such as Lot and Noah. We are not subject to any judgment meant for those who have rejected the LORD.

why on earth would we whom are saved and one in the body of the LORD HIMSELF be condemned to endure such a time of judgment.

Do you understand the a!client Jewish wedding ceremony where the groom goes and gets his wife to come home to their new home that the grooms father prepared for them? If not I suggest you read about that and apply it to the rapture.

We are not subject to the tribulation because we are one body in Christ and not appointed to His anger and wrath. The tribulation is an entirely different kind of time like no other.

the hard times we are seeing now are nothing compared to God's bowls of wrath being poured up on the earth. Yes here in this time we will see hard times but not the hard times of the full force of God's judgment that is meant ONLY for all those who have rejected the free gift of salvation.


Nothing else makes sense and the fact that it's always the pretribulationalists that are always attacked makes it even more true because the truth is always attacked the most just like the Bible is attacked the most.

I think the early Christians would disagree with you. They were betrayed, flogged, and killed. The Jew Saul, before he became a Christian, admits that he was one of their most egregious persecutors:

Acts 26:9-11 “I myself was convinced that I ought to do many things in opposing the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 And I did so in Jerusalem; I not only shut up many of the saints in prison, by authority from the chief priests, but when they were put to death I cast my vote against them. 11 And I punished them often in all the synagogues and tried to make them blaspheme; and in raging fury against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities."

The Great Tribulation was in the first century AD. Jesus said in the early thirties AD that the great tribulation would be in "this generation," meaning within forty years. It occurred just as he prophesied, in 70 AD.

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Mathew 24 is about the destruction of the temple and its religious system. "this generation"

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

 

[WatchmanofGod]

I think the early Christians would disagree with you. They were betrayed, flogged, and killed. The Jew Saul, before he became a Christian, admits that he was one of their most egregious persecutors:

Acts 26:9-11 “I myself was convinced that I ought to do many things in opposing the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 And I did so in Jerusalem; I not only shut up many of the saints in prison, by authority from the chief priests, but when they were put to death I cast my vote against them. 11 And I punished them often in all the synagogues and tried to make them blaspheme; and in raging fury against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities."

The Great Tribulation was in the first century AD. Jesus said in the early thirties AD that the great tribulation would be in "this generation," meaning within forty years. It occurred just as he prophesied, in 70 AD.

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.

Mathew 24 is about the destruction of the temple and its religious system. "this generation"

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

Incorrect. Where are you getting this from? who is teaching this to you???

 

[Jan001]

Incorrect. Where are you getting this from? who is teaching this to you???

The Bible.

 

[WatchmanofGod]

The Bible.

so you think the seven bowls of wrath that God pours out into the earth in the tribulation have already occurred?

Please do not give some lengthy reply.

 

[eleos1954]

No scripture says that anyone has or will go to and live consciously in heaven. There is no Biblical support for anyone to be taken there now or future. After all of Gods plans for mankind are over, God and heaven will come to the new earth. Rev 21:1-7

You get John 3:13 wrong, as Jesus' clear statement is that; ONLY one who comes from heaven can go back to heaven.
The belief of a 'rapture to heaven of the Church, is impossible and can never happen.

The rapture of the "church" ... God's people happens at the 1st resurrection. No where does it say those in the 1st resurrection remain on earth ,,, in fact the opposite.

Jeremiah 25

32This is what the LORD of Hosts says: “Behold! Disaster is spreading from nation to nation; a mighty storm is rising from the ends of the earth.” 33Those slain by the LORD on that day will be spread from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried. They will be like dung lying on the ground. Who are these people?

There IS a 1,000 year span between the two resurrections.

Revelation 20

Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge.I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who takes part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

The above scene is seen in heaven ... not on earth.

God and heaven will come to the new earth. Rev 21:1-7

True , but this is after the 2nd resurrection and final judgement for eternity has taken place and He re-creates everything new and establishes the heavenly kingdom on the new earth ... the New Jerusalem.
The biblical description of the New Jerusalem is what Abraham saw by faith. “For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God” (Hebrews 11:10).

Jesus did everything needed for provide for eternal life the first time He came .... until His return anyone can come to Him (jew or greek) ... when He returns judgement for all time has taken place ... what remains is full execution of that judgement and that don't happen until after the judgement of the wicked dead (the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years happens.

God establishes His eternal kingdom on the NEW earth ... not the old one ... the old one passes away.

• Revelation 21:1
  "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more".
• Revelation 20:11
  "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them".

 

[keras]

The rapture of the "church" ... God's people happens at the 1st resurrection. No where does it say those in the 1st resurrection remain on earth ,,, in fact the opposite.

Jeremiah 25

32This is what the LORD of Hosts says: “Behold! Disaster is spreading from nation to nation; a mighty storm is rising from the ends of the earth.” 33Those slain by the LORD on that day will be spread from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried. They will be like dung lying on the ground. Who are these people?

There IS a 1,000 year span between the two resurrections.

Revelation 20

Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge.I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. These had not worshiped the beast or his image and had refused to receive his mark on their forehead or hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who takes part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

The above scene is seen in heaven ... not on earth.

Unsupported nonsense.

Jeremiah 25 refers to the Day of the Lords fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
Heaven is only mentioned in Revelation 20, as where the angel comes from. The location of all Revelation is earthly.

 

[eleos1954]

Unsupported nonsense.

Jeremiah 25 refers to the Day of the Lords fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
Heaven is only mentioned in Revelation 20, as where the angel comes from. The location of all Revelation is earthly.

• 2 Corinthians 5:1
  "For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens"
  
  
• John 14:2–4
  "In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?"
• 
  
• What is the place in heaven being prepared?

 

[keras]

• 
  
• What is the place in heaven being prepared?

Where is it said that those 'mansions' are in heaven?

I think you are confusing the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21, with the foolish and unscriptural theory of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church.

2 Corinthians 5:1, refers to our bodies. If we are proved worthy, then at the GWT Judgment, we can receive immortality.
I want you to admit you are wrong about this verse.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 3:10-11 are a referral to the rapture.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

So we have those verses that indicate the rapture/resurrection event to be before the great tribulation begins.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

And in 1Thesslalonians 5, we have another timing factor as being before the day of the Lord begins when God's wrath will be poured out. In 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 is the rapture/resurrection event.

The beginning of the day of Lord is when in 2Thessalonians2:4, the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act of sitting the temple claiming to have achieved God-hood.

1Thessalonians5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

----------------------------------------------------

The next timing factor is to be ready. In Matthew 24:42-44, we don't exactly when the rapture/resurrection event will take place. But we are to be ready, living a Christian life.

In Luke 21:34-36, to escape going through the great tribulation...

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
------------------------------------------------------

So the rapture/resurrection event...

1. is before the beginning of the day of the Lord (before the transgression of desolation act).
2. is before the beginning of the great tribulation (before the abomination of desolation is placed on the temple mount).
3. the exact day is not known.

.....but some time before Stage 4 of the little horn. Maybe even today. 1Thessalonians5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[keras]

Revelation 3:10-11 are a referral to the rapture.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

So we have those verses that indicate the rapture/resurrection event to be before the great tribulation begins.

Rev 3:10-11 do not refer to any kind of rapture.

Verse 10 does not even hint of a removal, The Lord will protect His own people, those who call upon His Name.
Verse 11 states clearly how we must stand strong in our faith until Jesus Returns.

Your opinionated pronouncements are worthless and your 'charts' are wrong; even laughable, as the European Union is a dead duck and nations are as nationalistic as ever. Only a dramatic worldwide disaster will suffice to enable a One World Govt to be established. That will be the Sixth Seal event.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 3:10-11 do not refer to any kind of rapture.

Verse 10 does not even hint of a removal, The Lord will protect His own people, those who call upon His Name.
Verse 11 states clearly how we must stand strong in our faith until Jesus Returns.

Open door to where (verse 8) ? If here on earth, will not be kept from the hour of temptation. In Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. (a preview of the rapture event)

Revelation 3:
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

 

[eleos1954]

Unsupported nonsense.

Jeremiah 25 refers to the Day of the Lords fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.
Heaven is only mentioned in Revelation 20, as where the angel comes from. The location of all Revelation is earthly.

Jeremiah 25

33Those slain by the LORD on that day will be spread from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried. They will be like dung lying on the ground.

Most of John's vision is in the heavenly not the earth.

The description of the elders in Revelation 4:4 shows that they are not angelic beings. The title “elders” in the Bible always is used for humans. In contrast to angels, who invariably stand in God’s presence, these elders sit on thrones. The white robes they wear are the attire of God’s faithful people (Rev. 3:4-5). The victory crowns (from Greek ‘qustephanos’, Rev, 4:4) on their heads are reserved exclusively for the victorious saints (James 1:12).

• the elders as an example ... not angels
• Clothing
  Angels are not depicted as wearing crowns or white robes, which are symbols of holiness and righteousness for those who repent of their sins.
  
  
• Age
  The term "elder" refers to someone who is advanced in age, and angels do not age.
  
  
• Thrones
  Angels are not depicted as sitting on thrones, which are promised to the saved
  
  
• Redemption
  The elders needed to be redeemed by Christ's blood, and angels are not redeemed.
  
  
• Song
  The elders sing a song about their redemption from every nation, which would not be true of angels.
  
  

 

[keras]

Most of John's vision is in the heavenly not the earth.

You refute yourself.
Revelation 7:1-3 sets an earthly scene. John received his visions in heaven, but earth is where it will all take place.

 

[Jan001]

so you think the seven bowls of wrath that God pours out into the earth in the tribulation have already occurred?

Please do not give some lengthy reply.

Yes. The great tribulation was in the first century AD. Jesus stated that the great tribulation would happen to "this generation," meaning it would occur within 40 years. It did occur within 40 years, before the end of 70 AD.

Luke 17:25 But first he (Jesus) must endure much suffering and be rejected by this generation.

Matthew 23:36 Truly I tell you, all this will come upon this generation.

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

 

[Jan001]

Revelation 7:1-3 sets an earthly scene. John received his visions in heaven, but earth is where it will all take place.

The temple in Jerusalem was still standing at the time the Book of Revelation was written; otherwise, John could not have obeyed Jesus' order to go and measure it.

Revelation 11:1-2 Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Come and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.

The Roman armies (the Roman armies were comprised of soldiers from all the nations of the Roman Empire) trampled the city of Jerusalem for forty-two months, just as John prophesied. They finished their destruction of it in 70 AD.

 

[eleos1954]

Where is it said that those 'mansions' are in heaven?

I think you are confusing the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21, with the foolish and unscriptural theory of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church.

2 Corinthians 5:1, refers to our bodies. If we are proved worthy, then at the GWT Judgment, we can receive immortality.
I want you to admit you are wrong about this verse.

I don't like the use of the word "rapture" it's not in the bible .... when Jesus returns the 1st resurrection happens .... that means that judgement for eternity for all for all time has been made because Jesus knows who is to be in the first resurrection. That being the case then there is no reason at all for Jesus to "physically rule" on planet earth ... because judgement for eternity has already been made .... what is left is the execution of the judgement of the lost.

John 14

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.” (the place He was going was heaven) If we don't go to heaven who is the place and where is the place He is preparing?

Philippians 3:20-21​

20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

John 14

1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

The Fathers's house is in heaven.

Matthew 24​

37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

In the days of Noah .... only Noah and his family were saved from the flood ... the others received God's judgement and were taken away (destroyed) by the flood.

In the days of Noah the "lost" were taken away (destroyed) by the flood .... when Jesus returns the "lost" will be taken away (destroyed) by fire.

2 Thessalonians 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

Jerimiah 25

30So you are to prophesy all these words against them and say to them:

‘The LORD will roar from on high;

He will raise His voice from His holy habitation.

He will roar loudly over His pasture;

like those who tread the grapes,

He will call out with a shout

against all the inhabitants of the earth.

31The tumult will resound to the ends of the earth

because the LORD brings a charge against the nations.

He brings judgment on all mankind

and puts the wicked to the sword,’”

declares the LORD.


32This is what the LORD of Hosts says:

“Behold! Disaster is spreading

from nation to nation;

a mighty storm is rising

from the ends of the earth.”

33Those slain by the LORD on that day will be spread from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried. They will be like dung lying on the ground.

Acts 17:24
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands."

 

[keras]

I don't like the use of the word "rapture" it's not in the bible .... when Jesus returns the 1st resurrection happens .... that means that judgement for eternity for all for all time has been made because Jesus knows who is to be in the first resurrection. That being the case then there is no reason at all for Jesus to "physically rule" on planet earth ... because judgement for eternity has already been made .... what is left is the execution of the judgement of the lost.

You avoid admitting your error of 2 Corinthians 5:1.

When Jesus Returns, He will raise the GT martyrs, thats all, Your belief above is wrong; Judgment and Eternity come after the Millennium.

Jerimiah 25:30-32

Obviously this does not refer to the Glorious Return. It is a Prophecy about the Lords Day of wrath, proved by how He will roar from on high......

 

[eleos1954]

You avoid admitting your error of 2 Corinthians 5:1.

When Jesus Returns, He will raise the GT martyrs, thats all, Your belief above is wrong; Judgment and Eternity come after the Millennium.

Obviously this does not refer to the Glorious Return. It is a Prophecy about the Lords Day of wrath, proved by how He will roar from on high......

When Jesus returns the 1st resurrection happens .... all the saved are in the 1st resurrection ... judgement has taken place the saved from the unsaved is not determined. Blessed are those in the 1st resurrection .... not the 2nd

Revelation 20

6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years

“And the dead in Christ will rise first” 1 Thessalonians 4:16 - the dead in Christ not just the martyrs

• 1 Corinthians 15:22–23: The resurrection of the just precedes the resurrection of the unjust

“And the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thessalonians 4:16,

1 Corinthians 15

16For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men.

If all the saved are not raised (from the grave) in the 1st resurrection then they have perished.

The Lords wrath

the Lord's wrath refers to God's righteous anger and judgment against sin and evil

His judgement and wrath occurs before He returns and great destruction occurs, but full execution of that judgment don't happen until after the 1,000 years. He does indeed invoke His wrath when He returns but that is not the full end.

There has been many times throughout history when God invoked His wrath (interim judgements-ie the flood, sodom and Gomorrah etc.), but he didn't bring the end to earthly humanity.

At His return is great destruction (wrath)... no human on earth can survive this interim judgement. But this is not the full end.

“The day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire” (2 Peter 3:10).

When He returns final Judgement for all times has occurred ... but this is not the full end. One thousand years later the wicked dead are resurrected and receive His full wrath ... death for eternity.

Revelation 22:12-14
King James Version​

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.