The questions about Sabbath and Baptism

Symes said:

Michelle

In the written Word of God there is not one verse to say that we should be keeping the first day of the week. Jesus spoke many times about Sabbath keeping. It was always in relation to the seventh day Sabbath. After His resurrection He did not say anything about keeping Sunday the first day of the week as Sabbath. Paul, John and all of the apostles kept the seventh day Sabbath.

Paul says as his custom was he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath. It wasn't his custom to worship on the first day of the week.

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But Tradition says that this is what was practiced in the NT covenant by Christ’s bishops because we are no longer under the law and because Christ gave all authority to His Church, who is His apostles, the Sabbath has been changed. Protestants do not disagree; changing the Sabbath was not the reformers gripe. If you are going to only practice what is written in the scriptures then you won’t be worshipping the Trinity - I take it because in His word it says nothing about doing that.

adam332 said:

Exo. 20:10 "But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God..."

Lev.23:3 "... the seventh day...it is the sabbath of the LORD ..."

Deu.5:14 "But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God..."

Mat.12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Luke 6:5 "... the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."

There are still, 15 additional instances which all show clearly that the Christ calls the seventh day “my Sabbath(s)”, again laying ownership of only one special day, (Exo. 31:13, Lev. 19:3, 30, 26:2, Isa. 56:4, Eze. 20:12,13,16,20,21,24, 22:8,26, 23:38, 44:24).
__________
__________

Exo. 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Heb. 4:9 There remaineth therefore a Sabbath to the people of God.10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

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So why don't we keep all the laws of the OT covenant?

Thou art Peter and on THIS ROCK I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail, I give YOU the KEYS to the Kingdom, what so ever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, what so ever you lose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

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What are the keys of the kingdom?


Keys open and shut doors. Jesus said "I am the door. No man comes to the Father but by me" (John 14:6) The "keys" Jesus gave to Peter were His own words. His teachings, regarding how man and woman could have forgivness for sin, freedom from condemnation, and peace through His shed blood and death on Calvary's cross.

These are the keys.


"Thou art Petros (a moveable stone) but upon this rock (this immovable foundation-that I am the Christ). I will build my church and the gates shall not prevail against it." The church is built upon Christ. He is the cornerstone rejected by the builders.


1 Peter 2:4-8

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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made * the head of the corner, [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto * * also they were appointed. [/font][/font]

Christ is the "Rock"

1 Cor. 10:4

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

Symes said:

What are the keys of the kingdom?


Keys open and shut doors. Jesus said "I am the door. No man comes to the Father but by me" (John 14:6) The "keys" Jesus gave to Peter were His own words. His teachings, regarding how man and woman could have forgivness for sin, freedom from condemnation, and peace through His shed blood and death on Calvary's cross.

These are the keys.


"Thou art Petros (a moveable stone) but upon this rock (this immovable foundation-that I am the Christ). I will build my church and the gates shall not prevail against it." The church is built upon Christ. He is the cornerstone rejected by the builders.


1 Peter 2:4-8

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made * the head of the corner, [/font][font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto * * also they were appointed. [/font][/font]

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That is a very lose translation of Matthew and one that many intellectually honest PROTESTANT theologians reject. I do not want to get into interpreting Matthew in this thread but it has been determined by PROTESTANT theologians that the loosely translated “little rock, “big rock” is just a over reaction to the Catholic Church’s teaching of papal infallibility and it is argued to undermined the Church.

Now with that said, check out Isaiah
Chapter 22


This is the verse that Jesus was quoting Peter and the 12 in Matthew. The apostles being Jews, they knew the OT scriptures and Christ often quoted from them. This verse in Isaiah
supports Christ meaning that he was establishing a Church with an office of authority and succession..

Whatever the Church binds is bound, what ever the Church loses is loosed.

15
4 Thus says the Lord, the GOD of hosts: Up, go to that official, Shebna, master of the palace,
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Who has hewn for himself a sepulcher on a height and carved his tomb in the rock: "What are you doing here, and what people have you here, that here you have hewn for yourself a tomb?"
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The LORD shall hurl you down headlong, mortal man! He shall grip you firmly
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And roll you up and toss you like a ball into an open land To perish there, you and the chariots you glory in, you disgrace to your master's house!
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I will thrust you from your office and pull you down from your station.
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5 On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah;
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I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.
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6 I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.
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I will fix him like a peg in a sure spot, to be a place of honor for his family;
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7 On him shall hang all the glory of his family: descendants and offspring, all the little dishes, from bowls to jugs.
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On that day, says the LORD of hosts, the peg fixed in a sure spot shall give way, break off and fall, and the weight that hung on it shall be done away with; for the LORD has spoken.

Symes said:

Michelle

The ceremonial laws pointed forward to the cross. Once Jesus had died it would be of no purpose to keep them. Jesus has died for our sins. We do not have to keep sacrificing a lamb for our sins. We can go direct to Him and ask for forgiveness.

The Sabbath law does not point forward to the cross. It is a memorial of creation. We are to remember it. "Remember the Sabbath day....."

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And we do, how do we not do this? What is the new and everlasting covenant? It is when Christ died and rose again and we celebrate that and “remember” that on Sunday, resurrection Sunday.

What point is there in remembering the Jewish Sabbath? We are no longer under the Jewish law. We are Christians and we are under HIS Law, the new and everlasting covenant. So we worship on Sunday to remember him. Jesus said to do THIS in memory of Him, not to worship on Saturday.

Symes said:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Matthew 28:19That surely means the the Trinity is in the Bible.

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You mean to tell me that if you were not indoctrinated in the belief of the Trinity you would figure it out from that verse only that you are to worship the three in one God? Where does that verse say that we are to worship the Trinity as ONE God? You have this belief because of the traditions of the early Christians and the scripture support that. The scriptures do not explicitly teach this.

Symes said:

The Jewish law was nailed to the cross.

The Sabbath is not the Jewish law. It is God's law and and was made long before a Jew was on the earth.

The Sabbath has been here since creation. The Jews came long after that.

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Was it or was it not a commandment that the Jews were to keep the Sabbath day holy? Where do you get that God established any commands for anyone other than the Jews before Christ came into the world? Cite where he gave that command to anyone other than the Jews.

Symes said:

The Jewish law was nailed to the cross.

The Sabbath is not the Jewish law. It is God's law and and was made long before a Jew was on the earth.

The Sabbath has been here since creation. The Jews came long after that.

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And if this is so, then why did Jesus himself break the Sabbath commandment?

Symes said:

Jesus did not break the Sabbath. If He had of they would have had Him stoned on the spot.

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Didn’t they want to? They didn’t because His hour had not come. He healed on the Sabbath didn’t he?

Symes said:

Adam and Eve were not Jews.

Gen. 2:2,3
"And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

Now we have a case right from Creation where God had made the Sabbath, sanctifies it, and rested on it.

That sure is good enough for me.

You cannot go back any earlier than Creation.

You cannot find anywhere in the Bible or tradition where the first day is given the same type of report card. Jesus never said that the first day was sanctified, holy or even special. That is all man's doing not God's.

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The Church doesn’t deny that God created the Saturday Sabbath but there is no command in what you quoted that says we must worship Him on that day.

Shelb,
there are two HUGE flaws with your comments about Christ and the Sabbath.

You claim that Christ broke the Sabbath and you suredly believe this was somehow acceptable because the Sabbath become no longer binding due to His work on the cross. What you failed to miss was that Christ' alleged Sabbath breaking occurred before the cross, which means that it had to still be a binding law...thus making Christ a sinner! This of course would create even bigger problems for you than it solves, because Christ did not sin.

Next, for the Sabbath to have been done away at the cross would mean that it was a ceremonial law. Yet, Christ included them in the ten moral laws. Did Christ make a mistake? Did he not know how to categorize his own laws? The ceremonial laws came after sin which pointed forward to Christ' and his redemptive work to come. Yet, the Sabbath was instituted before sin and was placed as a memorial to his creative work, not our redemption. That means that Christ knew exactly what he was doing when he placed it amidst the ten moral laws.

shelb,
you said;
"And we do, how do we not do this? What is the new and everlasting covenant? It is when Christ died and rose again and we celebrate that and “remember” that on Sunday, resurrection Sunday."

The covenant did not change the laws...there was NOTHING WRONG WITH THE LAWS. The problem was with the people. The new covenat its that he has now written the laws on our hearts. The location of the laws changed.....nowhere does the Bible say anything remotely close to your comments about the NC. Try again.

adam332 said:

shelb,
you said;
"And we do, how do we not do this? What is the new and everlasting covenant? It is when Christ died and rose again and we celebrate that and “remember” that on Sunday, resurrection Sunday."

The covenant did not change the laws...there was NOTHING WRONG WITH THE LAWS. The problem was with the people. The new covenat its that he has now written the laws on our hearts. The location of the laws changed.....nowhere does the Bible say anything remotely close to your comments about the NC. Try again.

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Where did I say that the law changed? I said we are no longer under the law. Do you think we should keep the Jewish Sabbath when we are Christians? What would be the point in keeping any of the Jewish laws? They rejected Christ, and they have no grace.