A conversation about unity.

[Carl Emerson]

Zionist Christians need to wake up and see what Israel is doing to the Christians in Palestine; they have earlier this week, told them to leave. There is no place for Christians in Israel's Zion, just as there is no place for those who do not accept Christ in God's "New Jerusalem". Sorry if this is offensive, but someone had to say it.

There is plenty of room in Israel for believers given a love for the Jews as Paul had.

That does not imply agreement with all that Israel is doing on the world stage.

Nor does it imply salvation is available except through Jesus their Messiah.

Yet I see many Christians supporting the initiative to construct the third temple - this cannot be a noble cause as long as an antichrist spirit drives Israel's spiritual endeavours.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Maybe the issue is you don't read books. LOL

Yeah, I just use books for wall decoration. That's about all they're good for these days.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Sure. Right.

Please explain your response.

 

[Hentenza]

Henry, good to see you and good to be here, don't worry, I won't be apologizing for mine either. As I get older, I have became more resolute in my faith and more steadfastly confessional Lutheran; the faith my ancestors suffered for in Europe and that which they built and maintained here in the new world. I have witnessed (physical and not just spiritual) healing through the eucharist, both personally and in others who had made their peace with God. I have also witnessed how the Eucharist affected one who was demonically possessed. My faith in Christ and the Holy Sacrament is unwavering.

I’ve seen a bunch too. After I left here I spend 5 years doing missions in 4 continents and to see God’s hand in action is humbling and awe inspiring. Our Lord is truly amazing.

 

[ozso]

I doubt you believe in Divine Inspiration

Not when it comes to man-made rules and views. It's easy to see they're man-made when they're localized rather than universal. If the universal body of Christ isn't coming together on something, it being divinely inspired is in doubt.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Henry, good to see you and good to be here, don't worry, I won't be apologizing for mine either. As I get older, I have became more resolute in my faith and more steadfastly confessional Lutheran; the faith my ancestors suffered for in Europe and that which they built and maintained here in the new world. I have witnessed (physical and not just spiritual) healing through the eucharist, both personally and in others who had made their peace with God. I have also witnessed how the Eucharist affected one who was demonically possessed. My faith in Christ and the Holy Sacrament is unwavering.

We can all rejoice in what Jesus does during the breaking of bread.

Many from all denominations gathered from the streets and participated together in this way and I was not ordained, yet had the support of my church. Many were healed at this time as you also witnessed. Such is our Fathers Love for all.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

if they accepted the unaltered 1580 edition of the Book of Concord.

not so likely

 

[ARBITER01]

Our man-made rules vs your man-made rules! Just as Jesus intended

Hence why this is but a "fruitless discussion."

 

[ozso]

I have also witnessed how the Eucharist affected one who was demonically possessed.

Hold on a minute. If it's beneficial to someone demonically possessed, isn't it therefore beneficial to all?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Hence why this is but a "fruitless discussion."

That may be so for you.

 

[A New Dawn]

Southern Baptists reject the real presence and also have believers (adult) baptism; there is no unity; to think that there is, is false ecuminism.

So, Mark, nice to see you, BTW, are you suggesting here that people who call themselves Christian but don’t believe in the real presence aren’t really Christian?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

So, Mark, nice to see you, BTW, are you suggesting here that people who call themselves Christian but don’t believe in the real presence aren’t really Christian?

The people may be real Christians but the sacrament is not a real Holy Eucharist..

 

[ARBITER01]

That may be so for you.

That's correct.

Why would I be interested in unity with a traditionalist type church? There's no fruit in that sort of union for me. I'm way more interested in what GOD is doing and teaching me.

 

[CerebralCherub]

Thank you @Hentenza and @Xeno.of.athens for putting forward your positions so articulately.

I'm a Southern gal, raised in a wooden church (imagine Little House on the Prairie) with no idea of the appropriate terminology for many of the things to which you both refer, but I do appreciate the discussion.

Fundamentally, my beliefs firmly align with the position given by @Hentenza but I do appreciate the steadfastness of @Xeno.of.athens and the explanations of the beliefs.

It would be good to see a consensus, as a nod to 'unity', but I don't see how this can happen with diametrically opposing beliefs regarding communion, especially.

In any event, thank you both for your discussion. I have learned much and believe a Christ centred discussion benefits all.

 

[A New Dawn]

The people may be real Christians but the sacrament is not a real Holy Eucharist..

So is that how unity is defined? Because to say there is NO unity seems like more than just saying the communion I take is not a real Holy Eucharist (not that I ever claimed it was.). But unity, IMO, is geared more towards the belief in the universal (the original meaning of the word catholic) church.

 

[childeye 2]

You missed the point; sacrificial acts are what we do.

If you're saying, true worship is caring for those in need, I agree. Charity is a fruit of the Spirit.

Yes, I agree that we do sacrificial acts, in Christ. To be clear, sacrificial acts are going to in some way serve others in lieu of serving my own carnal impetus. Scripture articulates the sentiment as walking in The Spirit and/or bearing one's own cross. The Spirit is love in a servitude towards others, and the cross is labor. Nonetheless, it's through the Holy Spirit I transform from the carnal self-serving mind to the spiritual mind of Christ. Wherefore a renewing takes place in my mind and heart that I credit God for.

2 Corinthians 4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The Sacraments, particularly Baptism, the Eucharist and Confession and Holy absolution are solely about what God does for us.

I can agree with this. I would only remark that a sacrament is a sign of a sacred thing.

We can never be good enough to receive His body and blood, it is only through faith driven by a Contrite heart that we can truly benefit from the "medicine of eternal life" that is given in the Sacraments.

The New Covenant comes through the promise of God. It sounds like you're describing righteousness comes by grace through faith. Is that correct?

 

[Strong in Him]

That's correct.

Why would I be interested in unity with a traditionalist type church? There's no fruit in that sort of union for me. I'm way more interested in what GOD is doing and teaching me.

Maybe he's teaching you to love as he loves and to be more tolerant towards those with whom you disagree.

Even if these people were your enemies or persecutors, you are still to pray for them.

 

[Strong in Him]

the sacrament is not a real Holy Eucharist..

It's not for you to judge that.
If they are eating and drinking to remember, and honour, Jesus and his death on the cross; it's real. If it were not, it would be for God to show, and convict, them.

 

[ozso]

The people may be real Christians but the sacrament is not a real Holy Eucharist..

They eat bread and drink wine in remembrance of Christ exactly as He instructed. Anything beyond that is man-made rules and tradition.

 

[ozso]

I just came across this when I wasn't even looking for anything about the Eucharist. It looks quite interesting. Theologians William Lane Craig and Gavin Ortland clash on the Eucharist (Respectful Dialogue).