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The questions about Sabbath and Baptism

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Hector Medina, Aug 31, 2002.

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  1. Hector Medina

    Hector Medina Questioning Roman Catholic

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    OK,

    Apprently I find that the Bible does not give any support to change the original sabbath.

    The support for Sunday sabbath is physical opinion.

    It sounds like Baptism should be done to a willing participant(someone old enough to understand).

    The traditions of Rome just stuck.
    But it is the traditions of the Jews that is truly Gods rite!

    In Christ,

    Hector
     
  2. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

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    Very interesting post. You must read & study for yourself? If you listened to the 'vast' amount of Laodicean Garbel of Rev. 3:16-17 among the so called, 'called,' you would really be confused! I agree with your Mark 7:7 assesment even if it is not quoted! It is interesting that many called of God, are in good shape until they get into the seminary :scratch: P/N/B/
     
  3. josiahdefender

    josiahdefender New Member

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    The seventh day sabbath.
    It is a wonderful gift of God to rest on Gods appointed day of rest.
    It is wonderful to rest in the person whom God made a rest for the believer.
    It is wonderful to realize the rest of God is an act of faith whether one believes in Christ or the law.
    The New testament of Christ now reveals a greater rest than that of the law, it is Christ himself. When one has put his faith in Christ, and that Christ will justify the believer as though he were completely law-biding:
    even though he has no past to show for it, he has a new life hidden in Christ that is revealed to himself and others when he acts according to the leading of the Spirit in his daily life.
    I was for a time a sabbatarian, I realized after some years that the folks who were sabbatarians were not in love with Gods seventh day of rest or even Jesus, but they were fearful of Gods wrath if they didnt keep certain points of the law. I found this a fearful and strange thing. I knew Christ was the end of the law for me, I became married to Christ when I was born of God. My justification came by faith not law-keeping, and therefore my sanctification must also be by faith since I have no legal footing for righteousness by law-keeping. It made me fearful for the folks who must rely upon law-keeping to please God when God has expressly spoken through the Apostle that by the works of the law no man shall be justified.
    It made me think that they have not the rest of Christ, since he gives them rest from their necessity to work for salvation, it is accomplished through Jesus himself. It also was a fearful thing, because they didnt realize they were teaching the younger believers to fear along with them, and to in a way minimalize Christs efficacious work on the cross, while they seek to hedge their bets by law-keeping or sabbath keeping so that they could say to God "well we didnt break the 4th commandment". But as far as I could discern they were breaking it the whole time as the jews did. They didnt place their dependance upon Christ to sanctify them, they undertook to do so themselves and bring fear upon themselves.
    Josiah
     
  4. josiahdefender

    josiahdefender New Member

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    God on the seventh day rested from his work. He hallowed the day and made it holy.
    The lesson for us in the very beginning of Gods creation was this simple lesson.
    "What God seperates and declares Holy he himself sanctifies." Christ did so with a "day" That day is Holy in that He declared it so because he rested on that day from his work.
    The Sabbath to us in the New covenant is Jesus Christ. We find that Christ sanctifies us, and declares us Holy because the work of Salvation is finished as was creation and therefore OUR work of salvation is finished IN CHRIST when we have believed. We cannot save ourselves but we trust in God who "declares us righteous" and who has given us a "rest" which the people of God may rest in. The rest of the people of God is not a "day"
    but a PERSON who is Christ. The people of God in the Old Testament must also understand this too. But as many dont now understand neither did the jews. They went about keeping the sabbath but not with love for God or the realization that God sanctified them BECAUSE they loved him and put their faith and trust in him. They did quite the opposite, they feared God with a slavish fear that didnt believe God to make them Holy but rather to make them ENSLAVED. They therefore thought as do many to day that "I will obey Gods law and therefore he cannot condemn me". The whole reason seems to be for some OTHER reason than love to God but a simple satisfying of a debt they feel they owe and afterwards when the debt is payed "I am free to do as I will". I have paid my "tithe of mint and cummin and spices", but as Jesus said they omited the weightier matters of the law.
    So it is with believers who are legalistic in thinking. They would have conscience cleared by the keeping of certain laws, but their hearts are not drawn to Christ in love: rather, they are making the New Covenant a new law unto themselves and others. The sabbath then becomes a "new covenant law" which to condemn others believers who feel they are not justified by sabbath keeping. Then after the legalist quote dozen of old testament scriptures on the ten commandments the young believer is quite confused. The real truth seems to be, that the legalist is not jusified by the law, nor is he justified by keeping a sabbath ( patterned after his own mind) nor is he justified by his own works- but he wants others to think he is, and therefore wants to claim a right to withdraw your liberty from non-sabbath keeping. Our Lord has spoken by his apostles clearly on the keeping of the law, the sabbath and what justifies ourselves in Gods sight.
    As long as Satan can keep men thinking that Jesus PLUS WORKS OR LAW
    will save men, he will forever keep the church in division over the matter of Christs completed work on the cross and those who negate it with FEARS that they must add their own works to "hedge their bets".
    Josiah
     
  5. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    I've heard the whole thing, and it's not because the information is being "suppressed", but because the "information" is false that it gets people in trouble. I've seen the tract in question, and it's disgusting. I don't personally believe in transubstantiation, but the "this is just a pagan ritual" thing is a lot worse.
     
  6. snoopyloopysk8a

    snoopyloopysk8a #1 Stunna

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    The Sabbath is on Saturday, and was never changed (by God). It was changed by the Church over time for a number of reasons, but the three biggest reasons would probably be:
    1. Make pagans feel more welcome
    2. Distance themselves from Jews and persecution
    3. Jesus rose on Sunday so we should celebrate that (the excuse given to justify the change)
     
  7. WanderingMagi

    WanderingMagi Member

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    The days of the week were confused with changes in the calendars. The fact that changes were required in the first place is a fairly good indication that we don't actually know when saturday, sunday etc. fall anyway...

    WanderingMagi.
     
  8. snoopyloopysk8a

    snoopyloopysk8a #1 Stunna

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    The Jews have been keeping the Sabbath since Sinai. And the day that they keep it on today is Saturday.
     
  9. Apologist

    Apologist 2 Tim. 2:24-26

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    The day we celebrate it is not important. The early church started celebrating on Sunday in celebration of our rest in Christ and we have followed that pattern through the centuries. To say it should be celebrated on Saturday still is legalism. Remember that, "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."
     
  10. WanderingMagi

    WanderingMagi Member

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    You assume that it was kept exactly all the way through the exile and through the diaspora. Possible, but is it so?

    WanderingMagi.
     
  11. Symes

    Symes Well-Known Member

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    Ask any Jew what day is the seventh day? They'll tell you that it is Saturday. No days have been lost. The Saturday today is the same Saturday of the Old Testament.

    Keeping Saturday is not going to save anyone. In and of itself it is only a day.

    What counts is who we worship. Is it God or do we follow tradition. Man's tradition is Sunday the first day of the week. God's way is Saturday, the seventh day of the week.

    Man cannot make a day holy. Only a Holy God can sanctify a day. God did that and it was the seventh day that He sanctified.

    Jesus told the disciples and those around Him to make sure that their flight was not on the Sabbath. He expected that the Sabbath was going to be kept. They knew he was talking about Saturday. He was not talking about Sunday
     
  12. Symes

    Symes Well-Known Member

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    "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

    Man was made first and then God made the Sabbath for him. What a great and wonderful God we serve.

    In Revelation it tells us that His followers today will also keep His commandments. That will include the fourth. The Sabbath Commandment.
     
  13. Symes

    Symes Well-Known Member

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  14. WanderingMagi

    WanderingMagi Member

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    The seventh day is not counted from Sinai. It must be counted from the creation of the world. I am not saying Saturday is not the Seventh Day, merely that asking a Jew is not an infallible method of establishing the means of applying the infallible law of God.

    WanderingMagi
     
  15. snoopyloopysk8a

    snoopyloopysk8a #1 Stunna

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    Why would God tell the Jews a different day than the day in the beginning?
     
  16. BrightCandle

    BrightCandle Well-Known Member

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    1) If we really want to follow Jesus we will do just what he says. When Jesus (the Word), wrote the Ten Commandments in stone and He came to the 4th Commandment, He said "Remember, the sabbath day. . ." and that “the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God. . ." How is it that we as mere mortals would even think that we have the authority to choose whatever day we want to rest from secular labor and worship? Was the word "Remember" just added in the 4th Commandment as a filler word? If the breaking of all of the other nine commandments are still considered a sin, why in God's name would the one that He specifically said to "Remember" would not be a sin to break in modern times?

    2) If Sunday was to be included in the "new covenant" then Jesus would have had to by His example and by His teaching during the time of his ministry included Sunday worship and keeping in the new covenant before He died on the cross. Because once He was crucified nothing could be added to the new covenant. But what do we see? We see Jesus keeping at least 1,000 plus Sabbaths during his short 33 year life span on earth! There is no record of Jesus keeping any Sundays! And there no record of Him ever saying anything to the effect of "from henceforth thou shalt remember to keep the first day [Sunday] of the week holy".

    3) In the new covenant He [Jesus] by the power Holy Spirit will write His laws (including the Sabbath) in our hearts (See Heb. 8:10). Hebrews 4:9 provides further verification of this, literally translated says: "So then, a Sabbath keeping has been left behind for the people of God" And in heaven the Sabbath will still be the heavenly day of corporate worship (see Isa. 6:23), not Sunday.

    4) One of the defining acts of the Antichrist is the attempt to change the day of worship, so that people will not worship the Lord on the true Sabbath day, but instead that day "blessed" by the Beast! The phrase in Daniel 7:25 that describes this diabolical act literally reads ". . . and think to change times in the law. . ". Think about it, the 7th day Sabbath mentioned in the 4th Commandment is the only one of the Ten Commandments that tests human beings when it comes to time!

    Brooks
     
  17. snoopyloopysk8a

    snoopyloopysk8a #1 Stunna

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    And, the one to change it was the Catholic Church.
     
  18. BrightCandle

    BrightCandle Well-Known Member

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    One afterthought regarding the assurance that we may have in modern regarding the keeping of the 7th day on the same 7the day as Jesus kept. When Jesus, the Creator of the 7th day Sabbath, came to this earth as a God man in the first century, He would have made a correction regarding the exact day of week to keep the Sabbbath, if a correction was needed, but the Jews were very meticulous time keepers, and no correction was needed as far as time goes. Jesus did correct many of the "commandments of men" that the Pharisess added to the Sabbath, but in no way did He do away with the Sabbath. If that was the case, then we would have seen Him worshipping on Sunday! The case is often made that Jesus kept the Sabbath because He was a Jew, but that is unfounded, because He didn't let the traditions of the Jews determine His course of action or teachings, and that is one of the big reasons that He inspired such hatred towards himself from the Jews. Jesus did His Father's will, and all His true followers will do the same.

    Brooks
     
  19. BrightCandle

    BrightCandle Well-Known Member

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    Amen!

    Brooks
     
  20. snoopyloopysk8a

    snoopyloopysk8a #1 Stunna

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    And if you go to any Catholic Church and ask the priest did the Catholic Church change it, they'll probably tell you yes. Ask them why, and what authority did they get to do it, and they probably will try to change the subject or avoid the question. But I'm not 100% sure of that.
     
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