The questions about Sabbath and Baptism

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Phileo

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There was no law of sabbath at the time of the creation... God rested and made the example of sabbath, Rather, "For without a law sin is dead." Where there is no law, there is no transgression; for sin is the transgression of the law: the very essence of sin consists in the violation of some positive law.
and God did not command men to observe it until the time of the exodus. Ex 16:21

---There are so few hints of a weekly Sabbath before Moses, who is comparatively a modern character, that argumentation is almost excluded, and each student will approach the question with the bias of his whole intellectual and spiritual history. There is no distinct mention of the Sabbath in Gen, though a 7-day period is referred to several times. The first express mention of the Sabbath is found in Exodus 16:21-30, in connection with the giving of the manna. Yahweh taught the people in the wilderness to observe the 7th day as a Sabbath of rest by sending no manna on that day, a double supply being given on the 6th day of the week. ---

---Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, and claimed His Authority over it. Apart from His claim to be the Messiah, there is no subject on which our Lord came into such sharp conflict with the religious leaders of the Jews as in the matter of Sabbath observance. He set Himself squarely against the current rabbinic restrictions as contrary to the spirit of the original law of the Sabbath. The rabbis seemed to think that the Sabbath was an end in itself, an institution to which the pious Israelite must subject all his personal interests; in other words, that man was made for the Sabbath:
There is no reason to think that Jesus meant to discredit the Sabbath as an institution. It was His custom to attend worship in the synagogue on the Sabbath (Luke 4:16). The humane element in the rest day at the end of every week must have appealed to His sympathetic nature. As an institution for the benefit of toiling men and animals, Jesus held the Sabbath in high regard. As the Messiah, He was not subject to its restrictions; He could at any moment assert His lordship over the Sabbath (Mark 2:28). The institution was not on a par with the great moral precepts, which are unchangeable. It is worthy of note that, while Jesus pushed the moral precepts of the Decalogue into the inner realm of thought and desire, thus making the requirement more difficult and the law more exacting, He fought for a more liberal and lenient interpretation of the law of the Sabbath.

The early Christians kept the 7th day as a Sabbath, much after the fashion of other Jews. Gradually the 1st day of the week came to be recognized as the day on which the followers of Jesus would meet for worship. The resurrection of our Lord on that day made it for Christians the most joyous day of all the week. When Gentiles were admitted into the church, the question at once arose whether they should be required to keep the Law of Moses. It is the glory of Paul that he fought for and won freedom for his Gentile fellow-Christians. It is significant of the attitude of the apostles that the decrees of the Council at Jerusalem made no mention of Sabbath observance in the requirements laid upon Gentile Christians (Acts 15:28). Paul boldly contended that believers in Jesus, whether Jew or Gentile, were set free from the burdens of the Mosaic Law. Even circumcision counted for nothing, now that men were saved by believing in Jesus (Galatians 5:6). Christian liberty as proclaimed by Paul included all days and seasons. A man could observe special days or not, just as his own judgment and conscience might dictate (Romans 14:5); but in all such matters one ought to be careful not to put a stumblingblock in a brother's way (Romans 14:13). That Paul contended for personal freedom in respect of the Sabbath is made quite clear in Colossians 2:16, where he groups together dietary laws, feast days, new moons and sabbaths. The early Christians brought over into their mode of observing the Lord's Day the best elements of the Jewish Sabbath, without its onerous restrictions.) :cool:
 
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Phileo

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---The hebdomadal observance of Sunday points back of Corinth to Jewish-Christian soil, but it is impossible to say when the custom first began. Not, apparently, in the earliest days, for Acts 2:46 represents the special worship as daily. But this could not have continued very long, for waning of the first enthusiasm, necessity of pursuing ordinary avocations, and increasing numbers of converts must soon have made general daily gatherings impracticable. A choice of a special day must have become necessary, and this day would, of course, have been Sunday. Doubtless, however, certain individuals and communities continued the daily gatherings to a much later date, and the appearance of Sunday as the one distinctive day for worship was almost certainly gradual.---



---Sunday and the Sabbath: Sunday, however, was sharply distinguished from the Sabbath. One was the day on which worship was offered in a specifically Christian form, the other was a day of ritual rest to be observed by all who were subject? the Law of Moses through circumcision (Galatians 5:3; compare Acts 21:20). Uncircumcised Gentiles, however, were free from any obligation of Sabbath observance, and it is quite certain that in apostolic times no renewal of any Sabbath rules or transfer of them to Sunday was made for Gentileconverts. No observance of a particular "day of rest" is contained among the "necessary things" of Acts 15:28,29, nor is any such precept found among all the varied moral directions given in the whole epistolary literature. Quite on the contrary, the observance of a given day as a matter of Divine obligation is denounced by Paul as a forsaking of Christ (Galatians 4:10), and Sabbath-keeping is condemned explicitly in Colossians 2:16. As a matter of individual devotion, to be sure, a man might do as he pleased (Romans 14:5,6), but no general rule as necessary for salvation could be compatible with the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free. Evidently, then, the fact that the Christian worship was held on Sunday did not sanctify Sunday any more than (say) a regular Wednesday service among us sanctifies Wednesday, noting especially that the apostolic service was held in the evening. For it was felt that Christian enthusiasm would raise every day to the highest religious plane, the decay of that enthusiasm through the long delay of the Parousia not being contemplated. ------

Sunday was fixed as the day for Christian worship by general apostolic practice, and the academic possibility of an alteration hardly seems worth discussing. If a literal apostolicity is to be insisted upon, however, the "breaking of bread" must be made part of the Sunday service. Rest from labor for the sake of worship, public and private, is intensely desirable, since the regaining of the general apostolic enthusiasm seems unattainable, but the New Testament leaves us quite free as to details. Rest from labor to secure physical and mental renewal rests on a still different basis, and the working out of details involves a knowledge of sociological and industrial conditions, as well as a knowledge of religious principles. It is the task of the pastor to combine the various principles and to apply them to the particular conditions of his people in their locality, in accordance with the rules that his own church has indubitably the right to lay down--very special attention being given, however, to the highly important matter of the peculiar problem offered by children. In all cases the general principles underlying the rules should be made clear, so that they will not appear as arbitrary legalism, and it is probably best not to use the term "Sabbath" for Sunday. Under certain conditions great freedom may be desirable, and such is certainly not inconsistent with our liberty in Christ. But experience, and not least of all the experience of the first churches of the Reformation, has abundantly shown that much general laxness in Sunday rules invariably results disastrously. ---

:cool:
 
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Phileo

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And when the day of Pentecost was fully come…
Or "was come", was begun and entered upon; for it was not over, or ended, it being but the third hour of the day, or nine of the clock in the morning, when Peter began his sermon; see (Acts 2:15) .

And on this day, and which was the first day of the week, the Spirit was poured forth upon the disciples; the Gospel began to be preached to all nations, and a harvest of souls was gathered in: they were all with one accord in one place; (Acts 1:26) . Though this need not be restrained to the twelve apostles, but may be understood of the hundred and twenty, on whom, as well as on the apostles, the Holy Ghost might be poured forth, that so they might speak with tongues; since among these were many ministers of the Gospel, as the seventy disciples, and it may be more; and that his extraordinary gifts should be bestowed on others, is but what was afterwards done; see (Acts 8:17) (10:14) (11:15) and though there were so many of them together, they were very unanimous and peaceable; there were no jars nor contentions among them; they were of the same mind and judgment in faith and practice, and of one heart and soul, and had a cordial affection for one another; and were all in one place, which seems to be the temple; see (Acts 2:46) . And indeed, no other place or house could hold so many as came to hear them, of which number three thousand were converted.
 
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Symes

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There was no law of sabbath at the time of the creation... God rested and made the example of Sabbath,
In Genesis 2;2,3 we have a very good example to follow.

"By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [1] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

Now notice how God starts out this commandment. Not like many of the others, Thou shalt.... but "Remember"

Why does He do this?

He could not start out like this if they did not already know about it. Like me saying to you. Remember driving down the highway. You have already driven down the highway to be able to remember doing it.

Same as the Sabbath. The Children of Israel knew about the Sabbath so got told them to "Remember"

It had been there since creation.

Exodus 20:11
"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."
 
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Symes

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There is no distinct mention of the Sabbath
What about Genesis 2:2,3

"By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [1] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

God blessed the seventh day. No other day has been blessed of God. In the Old or the New Testament.

Tell me where the fisrt day has been blessed.
 
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Symes

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Phileo

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come…
Or "was come", was begun and entered upon; for it was not over, or ended, it being but the third hour of the day, or nine of the clock in the morning, when Peter began his sermon; see


What have the texts below got to do with what you have talked about. Please explain how Acts 2:15 has anything to do with what day you worship on?

If I have made a mistake with all your texts I apologise but I cannot see what you are getting at.

Acts 2:15
15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning!

Acts 1:26
26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Acts 8:17
17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:14
14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

Acts 11:15
15"As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.

Acts 2:46
46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
 
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Symes

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And on this day, and which was the first day of the week, the Spirit was poured forth upon the disciples; the Gospel began to be preached to all nations, and a harvest of souls was gathered in
Phileo

Show me where in the Bible it says it was the first day of the week?
 
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Phileo

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God blessed the seventh day. No other day has been blessed of God. In the Old or the New Testament
He blessed it yes, I have never disagreed... but he did not make it a law of observance until the exodus.

He Blessed you and me but that does not mean that anyone need pay us any special observance of homage. There is no law to that effect.
 
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Phileo

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Phileo

Show me where in the Bible it says it was the first day of the week?
excuse cut and paste jobs:

\Pen"te*cost\, n. [L. pentecoste, Gr. ? (sc. ?) thefiftieth day, Pentecost, fr. ? fiftieth, fr. ? fifty, fr. ?five. See {Five}, and cf. {Pingster}.]1. A solemn festival of the Jews; -- so called because celebrated on the fiftieth day (seven weeks) after the second day of the Passover (which fell on the sixteenth of the Jewish month Nisan); -- hence called, also, the {Feast of Weeks}. At this festival an offering of the first fruits of the harvest was made. By the Jews it was generally regarded as commemorative of the gift of the law on the fiftieth day after the departure from Egypt.2. [n]seventh Sunday after Easter; commemorates
the descent of the Holy Spirit on the apostles;
Synonyms: Feast of Weeks, Shabuoth, Shavous, Shavuot,
Shavuoth, Whitsunday

See Also: Jewish holy day, quarter day, Whitsun, Whitsuntide, Whitwee
Look up the "History of the Pentecost" it fell on a Sunday... This may also help you to understand why I and many others worship on Sundays:
23 reasons why the first day of the week, Sunday is important to Christians.

As for me... I have no more to offer on this subject. God Bless you!
 
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seangoh

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alright, this is a very long thread, but i've seen the last few posts. What i want to say is this. I'm a layperson and i would prefer to see God's Word as simple to read and understand even to the lay person. IOW, we don't need greek or hebrew to understand what is God's expressed commands if it's important. I see the Sabbath as a command to be kept and it is clearly stated as pointed by the previous posts. The big question is WWJD? And what DID Jesus do? What DID Jesus eat? What DID Jesus Say? How DID Jesus treat others? How DID Jesus respond to other's "torments"?

I'm a Christian and believer of Jesus so i want to follow Him in what He DID when he was on earth as His purpose on earth i believe was to provide an example for us to follow.

Regarding the day of worship. Besides simple and clear cut texts that lean much towards Sabbath keeping, i've another thing to point out. If i don't look at those texts i talked about, and not regard them, of all the days to worship, you can bet i will choose the Sabbath and not tuesday or wednesday or sunday. Why? Because i know that from Creation, He blessed, sanctified and rested on that day. And I want to have that blessing too. I'd be utterly crazy to rest on any other day knowing full well that the Sabbath was blessed already. And if there is anyone here that still disagree with what i said on the previous point, then i really don't know what to say...maybe you can bless yourself on that day then, but i know for sure that God would desire to bless you on His special day-the Sabbath if you make an attempt to keep it.

Ok, i don't think i'll get back here again. I don't want to deviate from the discussion, so just get back to what u guys were talking..was my 2 cents...if u want further info, just pm me.
 
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Phileo

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I will never be able to point out to you biblically that the scriptures shows perfectly that the Christian has this freedom in Christ, who as I and others have pointed out Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is by Him that we are free. Free even to worship on Sunday. I choose to walk in the freedom of the righteousness of Christ, and the frredom of the salvation he offers me from the penalty of the Law that He has fulfilled on my behalf.

I find it to be no more that bickering, when you are so deeply convicted to your point (and that is commendable) you stand by that conviction, no matter what I point out as the reason that I stand by my own. Which means if I do not show you where in scripture it says specifically, "You should now observe Sunday as the Lord's Day." You will never waiver, and it is not my place to make you do so or to convince you to believe as I do. Besides as far as I am concerned, as long as you or I worship at all, we do well.

Yet to continue would be like me turning the tables and asking you why do you believe in the Bible? Show me in the scriptures where the Lord says read the Bible? (rhetorical no answer required) It would be ridculous for you to try to prove this point since the word "Bible" is nowhere to be found in scripture. Nor does the scriptures refer to God's Word as "Bible". But if you are thoroughly convinced that it someting that would be pleasing to God, you will stand by that conviction. If I on ther otherhand am passionately convinced that if I don't see it, it ain't there. what purpose does it serve you to continue to contend with my convictions.

Who is being edified? No one. When I come to this place in any conversation, it is time to say, "lets end this and let peace reign."

Since I truly believe that is is more edifying to the Body if we stand together where we agree. Therefore I will leave it at that place: that is on the bigger issue Christ is King of Kings and Lord of All!
 
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Symes

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Phileo

You seem to have missed what has been said about the Sabbath.

As Jesus kept the Sabbath on the seventh day and He made no change then why do you and others think it is OK to make the change yourself.

It must be clear by now there is no commandment to worship on the first day of the week. It has never been blessed, never been made holy.

I agree that by keeping the seventh day as the Sabbath does not save anyone. But on the other hand when God makes a command to keep it and we choose not to then we are not obeying God.

I would rather obey God than follow a tradition that is not in the Bible.

 
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Phileo

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Greetings Symes

I have not missed the things that have been said about Sabbath, They are just not in agreement with my own convictions.

Try as one might, he will search in vain for New Testament evidence that the primitive church observed the sabbath with apostolic approval. Yes, it certainly was the case that the apostles frequented the synagogues on the sabbath for the purpose of proclaiming the gospel. That is where the greatest concentration of Jews would have been (cf. Acts 13:14; 17:1-2, etc.), and the message regarding Jesus was to be spoken first to them (Rom. 1:16). But where is the evidence that the early church, under divine guidance, came together to worship God on the sabbath day?

  • The kingdom of Christ was established on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1), which always fell on “the morrow after the sabbath” (Lev. 23:15-16), hence, on Sunday. So the church started out meeting for worship on the first day of the week (cf. Acts 2:42).
  • The disciples at Troas “were gathered together” [passive voice] upon “the first day of the week” to break bread, i.e., to worship, (Acts 20:7). The specific day of meeting was no accident. Though Paul was anxious to get to Jerusalem (20:16), he waited seven days for the opportunity to assemble with the church. Moreover, the passive voice (see above) indicates that the assemblage was orchestrated by someone other than the disciples; it was of divine initiative.
  • The saints in Corinth were assembling, and contributing into the church treasury, “every first day of the week” (1 Cor. 16:2 – Greek text; cf. NASB).
  • On the isle of Patmos, John was “in the spirit” on “the Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10). The term for “Lord’s” is kupiakos, which is defined here as “relating to the Lord.” Thayer comments: “. . . the day devoted to the Lord, sacred to the memory of Christ’s resurrection” (365).
The Gospel narratives, of course, make it clear that the resurrection occurred on Sunday. While Revelation 1:10 would not be conclusive by itself, the very fact that the day is specifically mentioned is significant.

We must also add this note. While it was true that some weak or uninformed Christians had a problem making a clean break with the Mosaic economy (Rom. 14:1ff; Gal. 4:10-11), it is important to recognize that inspired apostolic teaching sought to correct this error.

Also, there is the record of the post-apostolic patristic writers. For the first three centuries of Christian history, the testimony is uniform that the original disciples of Jesus Christ worshipped on Sunday – not on the sabbath. Here is a sampling of that testimony.
  • The Didache (c. A.D. 120) declares that “every Lord’s day” the Christians gather themselves together and “break bread” (ANF.VII.381).
  • The Epistle of Barnabas (c. A.D. 120), in discussing such things as incense, new moons, and sabbaths, says that the Lord “abolished these things” in deference to “the new law of our Lord Jesus Christ” (ANF.I.138). Later, it is affirmed: “Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead” (I.147).
  • Justin Martyr (A.D. 140) declared that “on the day called Sunday” the primitive Christians met for worship. He further stated that this was the day on which Christ was raised from the dead (I.186).
  • Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 194) spoke of the one who “keeps the Lord’s day” as “glorifying the Lord’s resurrection in himself” (ANF.II.545).
  • Tertullian (A.D. 200) argued that the “old law” had been consummated; thus the “observance of the Sabbath is demonstrated to have been temporary” (ANF.III.155). Elsewhere he says that “Sabbaths are strange” to Christians, and that they share together “the Lord’s day” (70).
  • Eusebius (A.D. 324), known as the “father of church history,” stated that sabbath-observance does not “belong to Christians.” On the other hand, he asserted that Christians “celebrate the Lord’s days . . . in commemoration of his resurrection” (26,113).
  • Noted historian Philip Schaff concludes: “The universal and uncontradicted Sunday observance in the second century can only be explained by the fact that it had its roots in the apostolic practice” (478-479).
Finally, we must make this comment. It is incorrect to refer to Sunday as “the Christian sabbath.”
I posted this quote only to explain once again why I worship as I do, and I once again say, I will fight for your privilege to worship as you choose. We see differently on this issue... but I have not missed anything that has been said regarding the Sabbath.

Christ obeyed the whole of the Jewish Law and he never abolished it, and your point seems to be that the Bible says to obey the commandments, Jesus did it and so should we. Good luck obeying the Law which is also Holy. I will still choose to employ the Freedom afforded me by virtue of the fact that He Fulfilled those Laws so that there is no penalty for me. I cannot throw out my salvation given by grace, through faith, by adopting living by the law. If I do this surely I will be judged by the same law. And if I should break any part of the law (which goes beyond the 10 commandments) I will be condemned by the entire law.

I will trust and take Jesus for mine... as I said my Lord is the Master of the Sabbath and I am in Him and He's in me. I walk daily in the Sabbath.

Maybe you missed my point:
Since we have different convictions on the issue of the Sabbath... let us move from that place to the place where we agree. And that is Christ is King of King and Lord of All.

If this still requires that I give you further comment regarding why I worship on Sundays, then I will have to humbly and respectfully disengage myself.
 
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adam332

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Phileo,

You said;

“There was no law of sabbath at the time of the creation... God rested and made the example of sabbath”

That is false.

We have every Biblical indication that all the laws were already in existence.

There are 3 types of laws.

Moral, civil, and ceremonial….all of which we have examples of before they were given in writing. This clearly informs us that the laws existed, they simply had not been written. Again the NT confirms this several times by telling us that we had the commandments from the beginning because we had “heard” them.

1. The Sabbath was instituted and on the Seventh Day(Gen2:2,3)(MORAL).

2. Specific offerings were given, or they would be rejected, long before Sinai or Israelite(Gen.4:5)(CEREMONIAL).

3. Murder was a not allowed, before Sinai or Israelite (Gen.4:13)(MORAL).

4. The separation of unclean and clean meats was already known, before Sinai or Israelite(Gen.7:1)(CIVIL).

5. Adultery was considered a sin, before Sinai(Gen.39:9)(MORAL).

6. The Sabbath was called a law and a commandment, before Sinai(Exo.16:28*)(MORAL).

*[He states; "My laws and commandments", the plural for both which tells us several things.]

a. There was more than one law and commandment established prior to this statement.

b. These laws and commandments existed before Sinai.

c. The 7th day Sabbath was included in them.

__________

__________

You said;

“God did not command men to observe it until the time of the exodus. Ex 16:21”

Wrong. As shown above, even though there was no written command for the laws they were obviously in place. As well, verse 21 doesn’t say anything about the Sabbath. I think what you are referring to must be v.23. Let’s take a peak shall we?

23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Moses talks about something the Lord said…when did he say this? There is no recording of the conversation he is speaking of. Just because we don’t have that conversation recorded in the Bible it is still obvious that it must have happened. As I said, just because the Bible doesn’t record the command thou shalt not commit adultery until Moses, doesn’t mean that we don’t have evidence that it was indeed understood long before.

Let’s see what Moses had to say after they broke the Sabbath ONE TIME!

28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

What commands and laws is he referring to? He hadn’t been to Sinai, yet he clearly speaks as though they all should know about them. He sounds frustrated as though God’s people have been breaking the commands, particularly the Sabbath, for generations.

Your theory about the Sabbath being a command that was not in use until Ex.16...is unfounded. By all logical conclusions and Biblical evidence one can only conclude that it must have been a known command since creation.

__________

__________

You said;

“The institution was not on a par with the great moral precepts, which are unchangeable.”

Wrong again.

To insinuate that it is to have it’s own special standards is to imply that the Lord did not know how to classify His own laws. Are you saying he made a mistake and that there should have only been nine commands? This is bad theology and an obvious self-justification since you choose to break this one command without repentance or intent to change. Don’t twist the law to fit your life…instead try twisting your life to fit the law.

The Bible does not say “if you love me then keep the commandments that you want”.

The law is a reflection of God, and in the same sense, a mirror in which we are able to identify sin(Rom. 7:7).

God is good Luke 18:19, law is good Rom.7:12

God is holy Isa. 5:16, law is holy Rom. 7:12

God is just Deu. 32:4, law is just Rom. 7:12

God is spiritual John 4:24, law is spiritual Rom. 7:14

God is perfect Mat. 5:48; law is perfect Psa. 19:7

God is love 1John 4:8; law is love Rom. 13:10

God is righteous Exo. 9:27; law is righteous Psa. 19:9

God is truth Deu. 32:4; law is truth Psa. 119:42,151

God is pure 1John 3:3; law is pure Psa. 19:8

God is unchangeable Mal. 3:6; law is unchangeable Mat. 5:18

God is eternal Gen. 21:33; law is eternal Psa. 111.7,8
 
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Phileo

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adam332 said:
Phileo,

You said;

“There was no law of sabbath at the time of the creation... God rested and made the example of sabbath”

That is false.

We have every Biblical indication that all the laws were already in existence.
No I did not say it... the scripture says it.

Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
 
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