The New Testament type apostles would seem to be Paul, Barnabas, Silvanus, Timoteus and possibly Titus. None of these men as we read had seen Jesus entire life from Johns baptism to his resurrection to be eye witnesses. The apostles in that "group" who saw Jesus life from John till his resurrection had a specific calling to be witnesses of what they saw and of the life of Jesus. But similarly to the OT prophets they had a specific call and sent in a specific way. They do also extend into the meaning of the apostle and prophets and evangelist pastors and teachers of the New testament and their work is connected to that as well. But the apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers of Ephesians 4:11, were for the perfecting of the saints, the work of the ministry, the edifying of the body of Christ. This body of Christ is the church as Paul already mentioned in Ephesians 1. The first apostles did not initially have this ministry as the later apostles did, even though they extended into it.
And we see how God called out apostles after the resurrection in Barnabas and the church was also connected to this, even though an apostle is made, not of men nor by men but by Jesus Christ as Paul said in Galatians 1.
This "closed group" is your made up stuff here and not scriptural. Paul and Barnabas along with the other apostles before the resurrection such as Peter John etc...were not in a closed group. As I mentioned just previous, the work of the original apostles were sent as witnesses to what they had seen from John till Jesus resurrection, the work of the apostles and prophets , evangelist , pastors and teachers was after the resurrection and for the church and perfecting of the saints etc. Some have called these two groups big A apostles and little a apostles, but there is no need for that talk they are just send with different aspects to their ministry.
No it doesn't, as I have shown.
This is not accurate. As far as we know Paul was not an eye witness of all Jesus did from John the baptist until his resurrection , not was Barnabas or Timothus or Silvanus or Titus, (as far as we know). Also when Paul says in a list "
"Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
(1 Cor 9:1 KJV)
Here Paul simply list aspects of his call. He was an apostle, a sent one by the Lord, He was free and had seen Jesus Christ in a vision and they were the evidence of his work in the Lord. He is not saying that every apostle has to see Jesus Christ as he did. This would be to twist the text as some try to do.
You are very wrong here. And Greek and Tenses won't help your case here.
Also the word "gave" in Greek means to give, bestow, grant, it is used as
"a prolonged form of a primary verb (which is used as an alternative in most of the tenses)"
This is grasping at straws it seems to try and break down the clear argument in Ephesians 4:11 about apostle, prophets and other gifts still for today.
Using your logic here when we read
"16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."(John 3:16 KJV)
if we see the word
"gave" not "gives", then none can have eternal life given today or believe on the Son today (which we all can and John writes as much in 1 John).
Also your logic here is unsound because we read of other gifts in that list as well as apostles and prophets for today for the church, such as evangelist, pastors and teachers. Using your logic they also are not for today because Paul wrote that God
"gave" them. But if you keep reading the verses after that you will see they they are needed for the perfecting of the saints fr the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ, which all are still needed for the church today. Also this was
UNTIL we all come in the unity of the faith unto the
PERFECT man. This word perfect is the same word used in 1 Cor where were read "when that which is perfect is come" future tense. So the verse extends in Ephesians 4:11-16 for all the church of all time and UNTIL we all come into the unity and
UNTO the perfect man. When Christ shall be all in all.
So if we use your argument there should also be no pastors today, seeing as the word "pastors" is only found here, once in the entire New testament as a noun (KJV). But I'm sure you don't want to say that pastors, evangelist and teachers are also not for today because of your twisting of the word
"gave".
Again false. Just because God gave something in the past that was always there (I speak of the mystery that has been hid from ages). This doesn't mean he is not still revealing this mystery to all and ongoing to all saints in the future. We see that he is as scripture shows,
"
4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)"
Paul also wanted them to understand this mystery and we all have fellowship in this mystery even today,
"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"(Ephesians 3:9 KJV)
Not all apostles wrote scripture or at least scripture that God included in the Bible.
We do not read of any of the other apostle writing scripture.
We also read of prophets in 1 Cor 14 let the prophets speak two or three" and yet we do not have any of their words in scripture. So a prophet can speak in the Spirit from God and we do not need to write it all down and add it to scripture. Just as apostles did not have to write down every word they spoke in Christ to the believers.
These prophets in the church of Corinth ( after the resurrection) could speak authoritatively as God spoke through them. As any could do today as well.
Even in Corinthin we read of all being able to prophesy one by one and we read
"But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth."(1 Cor 14:24,25 KJV)
And nowhere do we read that these HAVE ceased for today. Not even one verse.
It seems that you are simply trying to reason your way around and make scripture try to say what you want. But there is no scripture, not even one that says the gifts of the spirit and the gifts of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher are not for today. If you try to get rid of two of those gifts then you would have to get rid of all five.
All these gifts are needed, and even more so today as the church faces massive onslought by the Devil, seducing spirits and the world.
I am not seeking to justify all those today who call themselves prophets or apostles. To me such gifts are very wonderful and very needed. But I know that there are many who are not called in such and this might cause some of the confusion. But because there are false apostles and prophets and evangelist, pastors and teachers, does not mean we should throw all GIFTs out.
This reasoning is also flawed to think so.
