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-exactly -you were trying refute what wasnt said .
exactly -YOU don not believe (apostle means sent one )
- you just did it again .
and yet .. you do not believe all of it- you just said so .-if its the inerrant word of god then you should believe all of it not cherry pick parts .
so - repent of unbelief . no ones going to be changed by your objections to faith and you cant practice faith in what you do not fully believe
Both Matthew and Luke are recording the sermon on the mount. If we compare them we see that The Lord is talking about how we judge.
Matthew 7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Judging Others
7 “Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and [a]by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
Luke 6:37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; [v]pardon, and you will be pardoned. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. They will [w]pour into your lap a good measure—pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.”
Yes I agree, you can't go wrong with John Stott. This is what John Stott says about apostles.
John Stott - The Message of Acts
b. The foundation ministry of the apostles
We have already noted that the ascension was the watershed between the two phases earthly and heavenly of the ministry of Jesus Christ. Now we need to note that he was not taken up to heaven, until after he had given instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. This is clearly emphasized in the Greek sentence, which reads literally: 'until the day when, having instructed his chosen apostles through the Holy Spirit, he was taken up.' Thus, before ending his personal ministry on earth, Jesus deliberately made provision for its continuance, still on earth (through the apostles) but from heaven (through the Holy Spirit). Because the apostles occupied a unique position, they also received a unique equipment. Luke outlines four stages:
(i) Jesus chose them
They were the apostles he had chosen (2). Luke has used the same verb ekle gomai in his account of Jesus' calling and choice of the Twelve, 'whom he also designated apostles', and he is about to use it again when two men are proposed to fill the vacancy left by Judas and the believers pray 'Lord, ... show us which of these two you have chosen. Significantly, the same verb is also used later in connection with Paul. The risen Lord describes him to Ananias as 'my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles ...' (9:15), and Ananias conveys this message to Paul: "The God of our fathers has chosen you ... You will be his witness ...' (22:14-15). It is thus emphasized that all the apostles (the Twelve, Matthias and Paul) were neither self-appointed, nor appointed by any human being, committee, synod or church, but were directly and personally chosen and appointed by Jesus Christ himself.
(ii) Jesus showed himself to them
The other evangelists have indicated that Jesus appointed the Twelve that they might be with him and so be uniquely qualified to bear witness to him. 43 The foundation witnesses had to be eyewitnesses. Judas' successor, Peter said, had to be someone who had been with the Twelve the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us' (1:21-22). And in particular he must be a witness with us of his resurrection (1:22, cf. 10:41). So, after his suffering, the risen Lord showed himself to these men (3). Luke stresses this. Jesus gave them many convincing proofs (tekmērion is a 'convincing, decisive proof BAGD) that he was alive, which continued over a period of forty days. During this time he appeared to them becoming visible), spoke about the kingdom of God (so that they heard as well as saw him) and on one occasion at least was eating with them, which indicates that he was no ghost, but could be touched (10:41). He thus presented himself to their senses: their eyes, ears and hands. Such an objective experience of the risen Lord was an indispensable qualification of an apostle, which explains why Paul could be one and James and why there have been no comparable apostles since and can be none today.
(iii) Jesus commanded or commissioned them
In addition to speaking to them about the kingdom of God (3) and the Holy Spirit (4-5), which we shall consider further in the next chapter, he gave them certain instructions through the Holy Spirit (who inspired all his teaching. What were these instructions? It is interesting that the Bezan or Western text answers this question by adding the apostles whom he had chosen and commanded to preach the gospel'. If this is correct, then the risen Lord's instruction was none other than his great commission, which Luke has already recorded at the end of his gospel in terms of preaching repentance and forgiveness in his name to all nations. Do and which Jesus will soon repeat in terms of being his witnesses to the ends of the earth (1:8). This, then, adds a further feature to the portrait of an apostle. Apostolos was an envoy, delegate or ambassador, sent out with a message and carrying the authority of the sender. Thus Jesus chose his apostles, and showed himself to them after the resurrection, as preliminaries to sending them out to preach and teach in his name
(iv) Jesus promised them the Holy Spirit
In the Upper Room, according to John, Jesus had already promised the apostles that the Spirit of truth would both remind them of what he had taught them 21 and supplement it with what he had not been able to teach them. 22 Now Jesus commands them to wait in Jerusalem until the promised gift has been received (4). It was his Father's promise (4a, presumably through such Old Testament prophecies as Joel 2:28ff., Is. 32:15 and Ezk. 36:27), his own (since Jesus had himself repeated it during his ministry, 4b), and John the Baptist's, who had called the 'gift' or 'promise' a 'baptism' (5). Jesus now echoes John's words and adds that the thrice-repeated promise (“the promised Holy Spirit', 2:33) is to be fulfilled in a few days. So they must wait. Not till God has fulfilled his promise and they have been 'clothed with power from on high', can they fulfil their commission.
Here, then, was the fourfold equipment of the apostles of Christ. Of course in a secondary sense all the disciples of Jesus can claim that he has chosen us, revealed himself to us, commissioned us as his witnesses, and both promised and given us his Spirit. Nevertheless, it is not to these general privileges that Luke is referring here, but to the special qualifications of an apostle—a personal appointment as an apostle by Jesus, an eyewitness experience of the historical Jesus, an authorizing and commissioning by Jesus to speak in his name, and the empowering Spirit of Jesus to inspire their teaching. It was primarily these uniquely qualified men through whom Jesus continued to do and to teach', and to whom Luke intends to introduce us in the Acts.
Doesn't surprise me one bit that idiotes translators would do such a thing. That is of course unless you think there were some 'Charismatics' on that KJV translating team.The word 'unknown' does not appear in the original Greek. It was added by the KJV translators. Didn't you know that?
UHHH, flog Paul bro, he started it, not me. I just discovered it in my studies and never seen anyone else who has. And you can't fit the prophetic warning by Paul any better than you do than when it's applied to you, not me. We certainly aren't considering you guys "drunk" "mad" 'deceived' for speaking "babble and gibberish".I see you're still flogging that old horse, attempting to make cessationists look foolish by trying to associate them with the Greek word 'idiotes'.
Hello, do you need to read what your BDAG says, a little slower. Seems to support our position exactly like I say. Your side is absolutely not knowledgeable (experientially) about the (Charismatic) group's experience. You guys are also 'not in the know (ginosis) and are the outsider (have nots). Reads pretty clearly for a bunch of guys who probably weren't even Charismatics either...right?The BDAG Lexicon entry for ἰδιώτης (idiotes) translated as 'ungifted' in the NASB is:
one who is not knowledgeable about some particular group’s experience, one not in the know, outsider.
You really are giving a live demo of what it means to "strain a gnat" and "kick the goads" to come up with that one SM.Cessationists well versed in the things of the Spirit and know exactly what the gift of tongues is, as the Bible gives us a thorough description of the gift. The equivalent of idiotes today then would be people who are ignorant of that description or willfully dismiss it and come up with a definition of their own that is alien to scripture.
The lexicon you quoted, despite being a poor one, lists the various meanings of phone. You only highlighted one of them. Did you miss where it says the word can also refer to 'language'? The rest of v6 tells us exactly what the foreigners heard - "each one of them was hearing them (the disciples) speak in his own language".
Doesn't surprise me one bit that idiotes translators would do such a thing. That is of course unless you think there were some 'Charismatics' on that KJV translating team.
I do know that my favorite translation (cut my scripture memorization teeth on it) which is the Really Stupid Version concerning this verse...or RSVI say that because it's the only translation, of the 6 I usually compare in studies, that capitalizes spirit in that verse, which really disappoints me.
RSV 1 Corinthians 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
NAS 1 Corinthians 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
So unknown being added only means that the idiotes KJV translators weren't as hung up on 'tongues from your spirit' ALSO being a language "NO ONE UNDERSTAND" like you non tongue speakers are today. I'm sure that happened because there just wasn't much of a Charismatic 'movement' in 1611. But they obviously knew something was different or they wouldn't have added UNKNOWN to NO ONE UNDERSTANDS IMO. So it just goes to show that there's varying degrees of idiotes translators and believers I guess.
UHHH, flog Paul bro, he started it, not me. I just discovered it in my studies and never seen anyone else who has. And you can't fit the prophetic warning by Paul any better than you do than when it's applied to you, not me. We certainly aren't considering you guys "drunk" "mad" 'deceived' for speaking "babble and gibberish".
Hello, do you need to read what your BDAG says, a little slower. Seems to support our position exactly like I say. Your side is absolutely not knowledgeable (experientially) about the (Charismatic) group's experience. You guys are also 'not in the know (ginosis) and are the outsider (have nots). Reads pretty clearly for a bunch of guys who probably weren't even Charismatics either...right?
You really are giving a live demo of what it means to "strain a gnat" and "kick the goads" to come up with that one SM.
Of course I know what it says. If by 'being a poor one' you mean it isn't totally biased by idiotes non charismatic authors, all I can say is duh. Would you expect anything else? I certainly don't.
We truly have something we wish you and all Christians had. But you will never receive it because it only comes by "earnestly desiring". And all of your earnest desire is anything but. I simply find it sad. But I also know, as you do, that the fruit of you and me interacting just stinks. So it really would be best to just drop it IMO.
I just pointed out what Jesus meant.So in your mind to judge is the same as to give.
They are separate teachings He teaches about judging saying how measure by which we judge will be the measure used to judge us, forgive and you will be forgiven
He might have said "this is also true about giving"
Luke 38.
Give and it shall be given you again good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over shall men give into your bosom."
Judge and you will be judged, forgive and you will be forgiven, give and you will be given.
To forgive is not the same thing as to judge, why should you say to give is the same thing as to judge?
Paul teaches the same truth in regard to giving.
Don't give them if you can't take them is my advice.I think I'll leave you to your schoolboy jibes and insults,
And I appreciate that, as I always do.and ignore you as I usually do.
-- a Continuationist need not speak in tongues themselves; they simply have a theological position that does not propose that prophecy, tongues and word of knowledge have "ceased".
Interesting (sincerely)Judging you? Well I suppose I did. But, IF what I said was true, then what are you complaining about? After all I included myself in the rich 'church of America' just in case you missed that point.
My posts almost always have scripture. And my last one, which you never addressed at all, quoted three. So if I twisted 'anything', then this post of yours should be a written rebuttal instead of just sounding like a cheap bottle of whine.
As for your judgment of me 'twisting scriptures'...let me just share my post again and elaborate this time, so you can easily 'point out my error'....in your next post.
The quote boxes below were from my last post with the scriptures I quoted "in part". But they are now here 'in red in the quote' and below the quote box is the full RED verse below, so as to help others know I'm quoting the bible.
This first verse is just showing the difference between the 'unknown tongue' of a Christian's spirit. Even the translators correctly did not capitalize spirit here.
1CO 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
And as for this next verse I share two different translations. It is a verse which your side understandably hates to have quoted, because it clearly points out THREE different groups. Charismatic Christians, NON Charismatic Christians and complete heathens.
KJV 1CO 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues (Charismatics), and there come in those that are unlearned/idiotes, or unbelievers/apistos, will they not say that ye are mad?
NAS 1CO 14:23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted/idiotes men or unbelievers/apistos enter, will they not say that you are mad?
Group ONE is the "whole Church" which is obviously ALL charismatic since Paul even believes If therefore ALL speak in tongues. Now I know that modern "ungifted/unlearned" began to call this statement a hyperbole, a long time ago, and it's no 'wonder why'. Funny thing is, Paul never said that it was hyperbole. So it seems to me that it is your side who is "twisting the scriptures" as far my side is concerned.
Group TWO is the "unlearned" (KJV) and the "ungifted" (NAS) ones. I only see this, as a group of non Charismatic Christians at Corinth which Paul said would have judged the Corinthian Charismatics as speaking like "mad" men, IF they ever showed up in a Charismatic church. So, I see no twisting here of scripture on our part either. I just see your side not liking the harsh language of what Paul said, and then I see you getting mad at me for pointing it out.
"ungifted" "unlearned"
2399 idiotes: a private person, i.e. (by impl.) an ignoramus (comp. "idiot")
Group THREE is simply those who are non Christian heathens or "unbelievers" even as the Greek below defines them to be;
"unbelievers"
0571 apistos: (act.) disbelieving, i.e. without Christian faith (spec. a heathen); (pass.) untrustworthy (person), or incredible (thing)
Then we come to the word in the next quote which my post didn't do justice is presenting. We were coming out of 'a canyon camping trip' and I didn't have my computer to post with. And on my phone it's too hard for me to post color/bold/full scripture. But in rereading my post, I notice that I left the complete (Acts 2:6) verse out which I was referring to, so I'll present it here. And if you think I've twisted anything at all, just share my error with your next post.
And here is that interesting word which was used in Acts 2:6
ACT 2:6 And at this sound/phone the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
5456 phone fo-nay' probably akin to 5316 through the idea of disclosure; a tone (articulate, bestial or artificial); by implication, an address (for any purpose), saying or language:--noise, sound, voice.
So, according to this verse above the unbelieving Jews heard the disciples in the house of the Lord on the day of Pentecost speaking in a prayer language which sounded like a "bestial" or "artificial" articulation. Sure doesn't sound like 'foreign languages of men' like your side twists the scripture to believe. And it was that "sound/phone" which drew the crowd to THEN hear the manifestated "gift of tongues" from the Holy Spirit (not the disciple's spirit), speaking in tongues of men, which men did understand.
So, there I've hopefully backed up everything I said.
Agree!
It's my experience that "Pentecostals" put more emphasis on "speaking in an unknown tongue" to the point that they believe every true Pentecostal should be given the "Gift of Tongues" before any other supernatural Gift. Maybe, that's because as a "Pentecostal" they're taught to desire the "Gift of Tongues". Although it's my understanding that it's the Holy Spirit that decides who gets what Gift and not "Pentecostals" desiring first and foremost the "Gift of Tongues."
It's my understanding that a "charismatic" isn't so desirous of getting just the tongue Gift and may desire the "Gift of Discernment" or the "Gift of Knowledge" or another "supernatural Gift" before receiving their private prayer language ... but i could be wrong.
Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't a private prayer language (unknown tongue, 1 Corinthians 14:2) given more by His Spirit with the intent that the recipient's desire is as a Prayer Warrior for intercessory prayer?
OK - perhaps I could have pointed out that those 'safe house' sub-forums in my earlier post are areas where CONTINUATIONISTS can post free of CESSATIONIST tripe. Because that is the more correct antithesis of Cessationist -- a Continuationist need not speak in tongues themselves; they simply have a theological position that does not propose that prophecy, tongues and word of knowledge have "ceased".
Problem with that is the manifest destines would all be confined in the word o faithers. Which may not be a bad idea.That would avoid the basic discussion being deflected onto side issues like "unknown tongues" and "word of faith."
That is what I have come to believe along with others who've posted here in the past. The phone Greek word teaching, actually came from an Australian Charismatic brother who's username was the Biblicist. He is one whose book knowledge concerning the Charisma studies, I truly do respect here....but don't always agree with....no surprise.Interesting (sincerely)
So based on this difference in word meanings your saying you believe they spoke loudly in many tongues unintelligible to the crowd untill the crowd gathered and drew near to see/hear what all the clamour was about.
Then ,...utterences in tongues of thier (the onlookers)own languages broke out ...
(Displaying the Varying KINDS of tongues Paul mentions later) ?
That's pretty much how I see things personally.For we also see SOME people thought they were all drunken due to the noise(and i guess jubulation) of it all.
(I guess those that thought they were drunk just heard gibberish and were perhaps the cessationist ancestors..)
I say you are exactly right. A spiritually hard heart simply muffles that which a soft heart more clearly hears. And it starts with basic salvation and then the tongues of a human spirit and ends with the tongues which come from the Holy Spirit. Our spirit tongue is for edification of the individual. But the tongues from the Spirit manifested through men edifies others.Its not the first record of some in a crowd hearing different things..
In john 12 :28-29. God publicly spoke from heaven
It seems the believing heart heard the words
The hardened heart just heard thunder...
im in no mood to be disagreeable - i want all to be saved and come to a true knowledge of salvation in Jesus.That is what I have come to believe along with others who've posted here in the past. The phone Greek word teaching, actually came from an Australian Charismatic brother who's username was the Biblicist. He is one whose book knowledge concerning the Charisma studies, I truly do respect here....but don't always agree with....no surprise.
But this 'prayer tongues first' understanding just also seems to line up experientially with what I've seen in the Pentecostal and Charismatic realm. Even those who try to naysay supernatural prayer tongues as being a "last and therefore least gift" is still consistent with a spiritual growth process. Even though they never even realize that's a point they're making. If I could never speak by faith in the prayer language of my spirit, what makes anyone think they can move in the faith required to be spiritually used by the Holy Spirit to manifest His "higher gifts" listed in 1Cor12? Do you know anyone who moves in 'ministry' of the supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit', but can't even pray in tongues with his spirit? I've can't say I've ever met anyone. But, having said that, I have met plenty who want to water down the Holy Spirit's supernatural gifts to being nothing supernatural at all, other than empty name calling. I once even had a 30ish fundamental sister say; "Isn't it wonderful that God has given you the 'gift of healing'", because I was her doctor.I had to tell her that the 'doctor' down the sidewalk from my office, having the same degree as me (from educated man) dumped his wife and kids and ran off with the secretary. Do doctors deal with healings which are natural and explainable scientifically? Yes we do, but that's no more the Spirit's 'gift of healing' than someone who is just 'naturally smart' claiming the supernatural 'gift of knowledge' or 'wisdom'. I hope this POV make sense to you, even if you may not believe that way personally.
That's pretty much how I see things personally.
I say you are exactly right. A spiritually hard heart simply muffles that which a soft heart more clearly hears. And it starts with basic salvation and then the tongues of a human spirit and ends with the tongues which come from the Holy Spirit. Our spirit tongue is for edification of the individual. But the tongues from the Spirit manifested through men edifies others.
some of these past handles do seem familiar to me ....In case anyone is wondering having banned myself many times and not allowed to do so again Evangelica, MaidInHisimage ruthhere
[QUOTE="NBB, Speaking of wonders and signs, you know believe it or not, a minister was speaking trough the radio, and i got close to it (the radio), and actually he started talking to me. I tell you i'm not crazy, because he described my house, expelled a demon from me, and told me what i was thinking, i switched thoughts and he told me everytime what i was thinking.
-- a Continuationist need not speak in tongues themselves; they simply have a theological position that does not propose that prophecy, tongues and word of knowledge have "ceased".
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