The Quadrinity of God

[Doveaman]

There are an amazing amounts of heresy to be found within the pages of christianforums.com.

There is just as much scripture twisting here as there is on Atheist websites.

Unbelievable.

The Bible doesn't say much about the composition of God's nature. So even the Trinitarian view can be wrong.

 

[Doveaman]

God is the one Holy Spirit that joins all things together in love: Ephesians 4:16, Colossians 3:14, 1 John 4:8. So, ultimately, God is one: Galatians 3:20. After that we can subdivide God into as many numbers as we arbitrarily wish to do.

Jesus is the Head of the Body, and the Body is Many: Romans 12:4, 1 Corinthians 12:12, 1 Corinthians 12:20. So we can say "God is two" the man and the woman, the head and the body: Genesis 2:24, Ephesians 5:31, 1 Corinthians 6:16-17; Ephesians 5:23, Colossians 2:19. God is three; the Father, the Word and the Spirit: 1 John 5:7. God is four; the Father, the Son, the Spirit and the Bride: Revelation 22:17. God is five, six, seven, eight, a hundred, a thousand, a billion, a trillion, as countless as the sands of the seas, etc.

I'm okay with two, three, or four.

Not sure how you would explain five, or a trillion.

But, no matter how many, God is ultimately One.

Yup.

 

[Doveaman]

JESUS came forth from
THE FATHER: the fullness of GOD made manifest in the flesh

The HOLY SPIRIT came forth from
THE FATHER and THE SON: the fullness of GOD made manifest in the Spirit

 

[Doveaman]

Dovaman, is that something you concluded entirely on your own or did you get the basics from another source?

I ask so I can look into that other source if that is the case.

I concluded it on my own, even though I'm sure they are others who share the same view.

God divine nature includes Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but the Son is also the embodiment of Man, so Man is also included in God's divine nature.

 

[Doveaman]

An awful lot like a human fathers son, and they are two.

Or, "I am the fullness of my Dad made manifest in the flesh.". Meaning my Dad taught me well, and I accepted what I was taught of my own free will, and learned well, thus I am the fullness of him/his thoughts, even his looks to a point, in his image...but I am a separate entity with free will that chose to be the same as my Dad.

Just as we do with God, but not quit as well as Christ did..

You are also the biological manifestation of your mom and dad.

Your mom and dad exist in you biologically as one human son.

God and Man exist in Christ incarnately as one divine Son.

 

[Doveaman]

I fear, having perused this thread, that despite the heterodox (as against controversial) view expressed in the first post, I am pleased that some have recognised that there is a problem.

Is the problem a biblical one?

If so, please show.

And please don't quote the Nicene Creed.

God became man, that we might share eternal life with him.

God isn't just sharing with us eternal life like that of the angels. God is sharing His own divine life with us.

To my mind you aspire to to much when take humanity into divinity before the eschaton.

It is God who takes humanity into divinity.

"His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness...so that through them you may participate in the divine nature" -- (2 Peter 1:3-4).

Those who are in Christ now share in God's divinity.

I really wish a few more people were conversant with both the Creed of Constantinople, and the work of the Cappadocian Fathers who contributed so much towards the outstanding document we share - The Nicene Creed.

The Nicene Creed seeks to explain God's divine nature, but the Nicene Creed is not biblically accurate, in my opinion.

 

[Doveaman]

Although our Lord Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, it's not to say that it's a man possessing God. That is, it's not as if Jesus the man contains God in such a way that you could somehow extract God and then be left with Jesus as purely a man - a different person. (But rather, if you take God out of Jesus you're left with nothing - for Jesus is the Word incarnate)

Jesus' divine and human natures are distinct, yet fully integrated with one another.

I agree, Man has indeed been integrated with God through Christ.

Jesus is one person with two natures, so to say that there are 4 persons in the Godhead doesn't reflect what the Bible teaches regarding the Holy Godhead, which is Trinitarian (as we can best describe and relate to it)

Jesus is also the embodiment of Man (the bride of Christ) through the union of his divine Spirit in Man.

"His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness...so that through them you may participate in the divine nature" -- (2 Peter 1:3-4).

Through Christ, Man now share in the divinity of God.

Colossians 2:9 explains that Jesus is fully God and fully man (which is very different from having the Holy Spirit):
"For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily"

In Christ the whole fullness of Man also dwells bodily.

"Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all." -- (Colossians 3:11).

If Christ is the fullness of Man and Christ is God, then God is the fullness of Man in Christ.

 

[Philip_B]

Is the problem a biblical one?

If so, please show.

And please don't quote the Nicene Creed.
God isn't just sharing with us eternal life like that of the angels. God is sharing His own divine life with us.

It is God who takes humanity into divinity.

"His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness...so that through them you may participate in the divine nature" -- (2 Peter 1:3-4).

Those who are in Christ now share in God's divinity.
The Nicene Creed seeks to explain God's divine nature, but the Nicene Creed is not biblically accurate, in my opinion.

Psalm 8
O Lord, our Sovereign,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!

You have set your glory above the heavens.
Out of the mouths of babes and infants
you have founded a bulwark because of your foes,
to silence the enemy and the avenger.

When I look at your heavens, the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars that you have established;
what are human beings that you are mindful of them,
mortals that you care for them?

Yet you have made them a little lower than God,
and crowned them with glory and honour.
You have given them dominion over the works of your hands;
you have put all things under their feet,
all sheep and oxen,
and also the beasts of the field,
the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea,
whatever passes along the paths of the seas.

O Lord, our Sovereign,
how majestic is your name in all the earth!​

---​

Sydney carter wrote in his book The Rock of Doubt:

You are a maker, first and foremost. I like that. You made man in your own image, says the Old Testament. I like that. You intend that I should be a maker, yes?

At your peril, say the Old Testament.​

---​

The problem I have with what you are saying is the equate man with God.

James 4:10
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.​

The Nicene Creed seeks to explain God's divine nature, but the Nicene Creed is not biblically accurate, in my opinion.

I do not agree. I am convinced that the Nicene Creed is a biblical statement - not of the whole faith - of the faith of the Church, and it's main purpose is to keep the faith of believers on the true path that Christ has set before us.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I'm okay with two, three, or four.

Not sure how you would explain five, or a trillion.

Using the analogue of a "body" you could arbitrarily divide the body into as many "components" as you desired. Any number will do.

 

[Doveaman]

God is God and Man is Man.

The Father is Father and the Son is Son, but they are both God.

God has Omni qualities and His authority is unquestionably .

So does Jesus the Man.

God can decide to act or come in the form of man and not vise versa just as He did to Abraham in Gen.18:2 before going to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Jesus came as God in the form of Man at his first coming.

Jesus will come as Man in the form of God at his second coming.

 

[Doveaman]

The ancient Jewish perspective is that there were seven aspects of the Godhead, which Revelation seems to tentatively substantiate in mentioning the seven spirits of God. I can therefore buy into the plainly implied trinity, or the plausible notion of a heptinity, but what you're suggesting includes man as part of the Godhead.

"His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness...so that through them you may participate in the divine nature" -- (2 Peter 1:3-4).

If we share in God's divine nature, then we share in the Godhead.
I'm not sure what level of authority we will have, but it will be on a divine level:

"Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?...Do you not know that we will judge angels?" -- (1 Corinthians 6:2-3)

Man, through his marriage to the lamb, becomes one flesh and spirit with Christ. However, we don't become God, or any part of God. This cannot be substantiated with scripture, even by inference.

Well, maybe not in your Bible, but it's in mine:

"His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness...so that through them you may participate in the divine nature" -- (2 Peter 1:3-4).

Those who are in Christ share in God's divine nature, which means we are included in God's divinity.

We are the wife. And although the wife is one with the husband, the principle is that we are still separate, though we are joined.

I do agree, though, that an argument could be made that the oneness of spirit we gain through the marriage taken in context with us being the body of Christ can potentially suggest this concept. It's like when Paul discusses laying with a prostitute. To join ourselves to a prostitute is to join Christ to a prostitute. So there is a possible contention for a true oneness of body and spirit.

I think it's much more than that.

We are one with the Son just as the Son is one with the Father:

"Those who will believe in Me...that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us...that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me" -- (John 17:20-23).

BUT, that version of the argument would not make us a fourth component to the Godhead. It would make us one person with Jesus Christ, thereby removing man from the equation altogether. In other words, we go from four identities, three divine and one mortal and stained, to only three entities, all divine, with the mortal, stained identity slain and eradicated.

Jesus did not become Man for himself.
Jesus became Man and he lived as Man, he died as Man, and he rose as Man on the behalf of Man so that he may become the embodiment of all humanity.

"Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all." -- (Colossians 3:11).

Christ is the fullness of Man in divine form, just as he is the fullness of God in human form.
Through Christ, the divine nature of God now includes the fullness of Man.

I like that you're thinking outside the box. I think it's an important exercise in expanding your overall understanding, assuming you accept the results of a comprehensive evaluation of your idea. But a quaternity doesn't really work.

It works for me.

"The first man Adam became a living being; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit...And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven." -- (1 Corinthians 15:45-49)

Just as we have borne the humanity of the earthly man, so shall we bear the divinity of the Man from heaven.

"And God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness'" -- (Genesis 1:26).

 

[Kenny'sID]

I concluded it on my own, even though I'm sure they are others who share the same view.

God divine nature includes Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but the Son is also the embodiment of Man, so Man is also included in God's divine nature.

So Nicene Creed had no bearing on your drawing your conclusions? IOW first you looked into the creed, went with it, then added your flavor to it, or not exactly but something along those lines?

 

[Colter]

The second person of the Trinity is the living Word who became flesh and lived among us as Jesus, the Son.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...And the Word became flesh and made hHs dwelling among us. -- (John 1:1-14)

Should read "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (which is the Eternal Trinity). Jesus never said he was the second person of the Trinity. He is a Son of Triune Deity.

 

[Philip_B]

Should read "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (which is the Eternal Trinity). Jesus never said he was the second person of the Trinity. He is a Son of Triune Deity.

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.​

This is the generally accepted Greek Text.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

This is the generally accepted English Translation.

Suggesting that the text should read something else appears speculative, and fraught with much danger.

 

[Colter]

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.​

This is the generally accepted Greek Text.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

This is the generally accepted English Translation.

Suggesting that the text should read something else appears speculative, and fraught with much danger.

But God is an eternal Trinity, 1/3 of the Trinity didn't leave and become a human. And it would have been Aramaic translated into Greek.

 

[Philip_B]

God is an eternal Trinity.

For us and for our salvation he (the only Son of God) came down from heaven, was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became truly human.

John's Gospel was written in Greek.

 

[Colter]

God is an eternal Trinity.

For us and for our salvation he (the only Son of God) came down from heaven, was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became truly human.

John's Gospel was written in Greek.

Jesus and his disciples would have spoken Aramaic and taught in Aramaic. Johns understudy who wrote on his behalf in Greek would have translated from Aramaic. Revisions and edits were possible between the original anyway, we don't have any originals.

And still, Triune doesn't segregate. A Son of Triune deity can and did incarnate.

 

[Philip_B]

Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός, πλήρης χάριτοςκαὶ ἀληθείας.
John 1:14

And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.
John 1:14​

There is no reason to assume that the Apostles were all mono-lingual. Greek (koine-greek) was the lingua-franca of the Roman Empire and many people conversed in it. It is highly doubtful that the gospel would have spread as quickly without it. It is almost certain that Jesus, a native Aramaic speaker would have some capacity sufficient to support his conversations with Pilate.

I am not sure what you are suggesting, save that the author of the Fourth Gospel tells us that the word become flesh. The word in this passage has already been established is divine. it comes down to this - Jesus is the only begotten Son of God -

 

[miknik5]

Should read "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (which is the Eternal Trinity). Jesus never said he was the second person of the Trinity. He is a Son of Triune Deity.

HE never said HE is a SON of triune deity either

 

[miknik5]

Jesus and his disciples would have spoken Aramaic and taught in Aramaic. Johns understudy who wrote on his behalf in Greek would have translated from Aramaic. Revisions and edits were possible between the original anyway, we don't have any originals.

And still, Triune doesn't segregate. A Son of Triune deity can and did incarnate.

This is very impersonal

CHRIST told us we could address THE FATHER more intimately than "triune deity"