The Purpose of the Rapture.

[Jonathan_Gale]

Thanks

The last trumpet is referring to the blow on the Day of Atonement, the first day of jubilee as the proclamation of liberty. That's what I'm talking about.

And you shall count seven sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years; and the time of the seven sabbaths of years shall be to you forty-nine years. Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement you shall make the trumpet to sound throughout all your land. (Lev. 25:8-9)

 

[dfw69]

The last trumpet is referring to the blow on the Day of Atonement, the first day of jubilee as the proclamation of liberty. That's what I'm talking about.

And you shall count seven sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years; and the time of the seven sabbaths of years shall be to you forty-nine years. Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement you shall make the trumpet to sound throughout all your land. (Lev. 25:8-9)

Ok but this last trumpet is not the same last trumpet of the rapture because the rapture has 2 trumpets that sound off to take to heaven…But the day of atonement and jubilee and that last trumpet signals not a resurrection and transformation to immortal nor a sky meeting as Paul’s description

If anything it signifies an atonement for the house of Israel and a jubilee a freedom from bondages…no?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Ok but this last trumpet is not the same last trumpet of the rapture because the rapture has 2 trumpets that sound off to take to heaven…But the day of atonement and jubilee and that last trumpet signals not a resurrection and transformation to immortal nor a sky meeting as Paul’s description

If anything it signifies an atonement for the house of Israel and a jubilee a freedom from bondages…no?

In my messianic understanding, rapture is just a Latin term for this final gathering. The bottom line though is that there's only one second coming, not a third or a fourth or more. The two advents of the Messiah is commonly known in Judaism as Messiah, the son of Joseph (as a suffering servant) and Messiah, the son of David (as a conquering king). Both were prophesied in Is. 61:1-3, of which the first half was read by Jesus in a synagogue, but the second was intentionally left out, because it was reserved for the second coming, and the "day of vengeance" is none other than the Day of Atonement.

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me,
Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.”

 

[dfw69]

In my messianic understanding, rapture is just a Latin term for this final gathering.

But Paul’s description of the gathering is more that just a gathering… it’s a change to become the children of God to receive the promises to live with God to behold God to live in His presence to receive eternal life to receive rewards etc…

The bottom line though is that there's only one second coming, not a third or a fourth or more. The two advents of the Messiah is commonly known in Judaism as Messiah, the son of Joseph (as a suffering servant) and Messiah, the son of David (as a conquering king). Both were prophesied in Is. 61:1-3, of which the first half was read by Jesus in a synagogue, but the second was intentionally left out, because it was reserved for the second coming, and the "day of vengeance" is none other than the Day of Atonement.

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me,
Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.”

Amen ..2 coming for the Jews…
But when they rejected His first coming and put Him to death it open the door for the church dispensation made up of both Jews snd gentiles to receive specific rewards for faith in His death and eternal resurrection

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

But Paul’s description of the gathering is more that just a gathering… it’s a change to become the children of God to receive the promises to live with God to behold God to live in His presence to receive eternal life to receive rewards etc…

Yeah, there's also the resurrection, that's the theme of the whole chapter of 1 Cor. 15.

Amen ..2 coming for the Jews…
But when they rejected His first coming and put Him to death it open the door for the church dispensation made up of both Jews snd gentiles to receive specific rewards for faith in His death and eternal resurrection

Those were foreshadowed in the story of Joseph the patriarch. At the beginning he was among his brothers and hated by them, at the end he finally revealed his true identity to them, but all the time in between, he dressed like an Egyptian, talked like an Egyptian and acted like an Egyptian, while his brothers were totally clueless, they thought he was dead, even when he was right in front of them, they couldn't recognize him, and he treated them harshly until Judah/Yahudah, the leader of the pack, finally repented. That's how Yeshua was to the Jews - all over the church age he was only known to them as a Pagan idol, only until recent decades did they start to embrace him as their long expected Messiah.

 

[Timtofly]

I don’t understand this statement

When Jesus finally does comes to earth to establish the Jewish kingdom as the messiah and Son of David, He will gather the tares (those who fight against Him and will not want this man to reign over them) first. Then He will send His angels to gather the elect

This is not about the church. Those in Christ don't remove themselves. The rapture is still the work of angels removing the church.

The wheat and tares happen during the 7 Thunders. Even the tares and wheat are removed prior to the 7th Trumpet. Jesus chooses the wheat, as Jesus is the one sowing the seed. They are elect as they are chosen directly by Jesus as King. Not many people are left on earth at this point compared to the population when the 4th Seal was opened.

Some claim only different camera angles of the same event. Some claim multiple comings. Scripture points out that Jesus and His angels are on the earth the whole time, not coming and going multiple times.

John declares the Second Coming at the 6th Seal. They are on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. The only reason that Jesus and the angels would leave is during Satan's 42 months. Satan will be seated on the throne in Jerusalem. Satan will set up the AoD. Jesus and the 144k wait on mount zion until Revelation 19.

 

[dfw69]

This is not about the church. Those in Christ don't remove themselves. The rapture is still the work of angels removing the church.

I disagree…. Why? Because I’m Paul’s account of the event to come there is no evidence of angels being send out to gather the church …. No , you misunderstood what the rapture represents….. Jesus is your foreshadowing of what the rapture will look like … He was resurrected with a glorious body ,we will be resurrected with a glorious body …. He was able to ascend to His Father in Heaven, we will be able to ascend as well .. why? Cause when He appears we will be like Him …We too eill be clothed with the new Adam likeness ..We too will become the children of God in the literal sense by adoption thus receiving an inheritance of the Godhood kind

This is the good news …so as become the children of God we may be able to fly up to meet Jesus in the sky …to soar as eagles

John in rev was commanded to come up here in lheaven and he was there immediately with no help mentioned and no idea how he got there …

The wheat and tares happen during the 7 Thunders.

Idk

Even the tares and wheat are removed prior to the 7th Trumpet.

Idk

Jesus chooses the wheat, as Jesus is the one sowing the seed. They are elect as they are chosen directly by Jesus as King.

Yes agree

Not many people are left on earth at this point compared to the population when the 4th Seal was opened.

It seems so

Some claim only different camera angles of the same event. Some claim multiple comings.

Yea I know

John declares the Second Coming at the 6th Seal.

No just the start of judgment is perceived by the masses that fought against Him and the doctrine that He is Gods Son and heir to the throne of David and coming to establish the millennium kingdom and bringing judgement ….All this is rejected as truth in the future

 

[Timtofly]

John in rev was commanded to come up here in lheaven and he was there immediately with no help mentioned and no idea how he got there …

John went through time. Something only the Holy Spirit could accomplish. John was a present witness to the Day of the Lord.

Why does Paul have to declare the angels are involved?

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Do you think Paul contradicted Jesus, because he left out the part about the angels? If the angels are gathering those from Paradise, should they also be able to fly all over creation like you claimed about yourself? Paul also said that Jesus would bring those in Paradise when He comes at the Second Coming.

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

So are the angels gathering people or is Jesus bringing them, or both happening at the same time? No angel is grabbing Adam's dead corruptible flesh. It would be your soul entering a totally different body. Are you going to grab that new body from somewhere or is an angel handing it to you?

 

[dfw69]

John went through time.

I don’t understand

Something only the Holy Spirit could accomplish.

Yes

John was a present witness to the Day of the Lord.

Yes

Why does Paul have to declare the angels are involved?

Because Paul is describing a different event for the church from the event Jesus is describing in Matt 24 for the elect of God at His second coming

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Jesus is answering a Jewish question … this gathering is the wheat harvest …the elect are chosen ones to enter the promise land and millennial kingdom

The barley harvest comes first

Do you think Paul contradicted Jesus

That’s the thing … it’s not a contradiction…. It’s 2 different events .. but many messianics fail to see it … one event involves Israel the other event involves us

, because he left out the part about the angels?

I’m making a point that there are no need for angels in Paul’s account because we become like them that day… does an angel need an angel to help him fly?

Enoch needed to be translated
Elijah needed a chariot of fire
But Jesus ascended of His own power
And since we will obtain His heavenly body …. What does that tell you?

If the angels are gathering those from Paradise, should they also be able to fly all over creation like you claimed about yourself?

We are going to be as the angels to receive heavenly bodies because we are citizens of heaven and Jesus Himself will lead the way home

Paul also said that Jesus would bring those in Paradise when He comes at the Second Coming.

That’s not correct… Paul said Jesus will bring the souls of those that have died in the Lord to resurrect them first before we are changed to immortal and it not at His second coming but at His appearance in the sky for His own

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Key words “sleep in Jesus” for these are a specific class of humanity ressurected at His appearance in the sky not at the second coming

So are the angels gathering people or is Jesus bringing them, or both happening at the same time?

Yes the angels are gonna gather people at the second coming to the promise land

Yes Jesus comes with the souls of the dead in Christ to resurrect them first at the rapture appearance in the sky.. which is not to be confused with the 2nd coming

No angel is grabbing Adam's dead corruptible flesh. It would be your soul entering a totally different body.

Jesus arose from the grave and His body left the tomb

Are you going to grab that new body from somewhere or is an angel handing it to you?

My body will be changed into a glorious body like the one Jesus has …and no angel will be handing out new bodies …

Remember what Jesus told nicodemus? The Spirit will give birth to Spiritual beings

We will be born again by the Spirit when the Spirit will transform our bodies and we will be clothed in heavenly bodies to become the citizens of heaven

 

[Timtofly]

Enoch needed to be translated
Elijah needed a chariot of fire
But Jesus ascended of His own power
And since we will obtain His heavenly body …. What does that tell you?

It tells me Jesus is God. We are not.

 

[dfw69]

It tells me Jesus is God. We are not.

Jesus is the Son of God who became a man who has adopted us so that we can become like Him to become His children and a part of Gods family


Are you having trouble like nicodemus understanding the spiritual birth to come?

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus is the Son of God who became a man who has adopted us so that we can become like Him to become His children and a part of Gods family


Are you having trouble like nicodemus understanding the spiritual birth to come?

The spiritual birth was available at the Cross. If you think it is still future......

Did Adam and Eve fly up to see God, or did God visit them on the earth?

You are literally claiming that all verses describing angels gathering the elect are not necessary. The elect can move about creation without any help. The word caught up comes to mind. Can we do that without God's help? Can we rapture ourselves?

When this physical body stops functioning, do we move our soul under our own will and power to heaven or sheol? Is that part of our conscious ability?

Even at the Second Coming, the soul sheds Adam's dead corruptible physical body. You don't take this body with you. You don't transform this body. You don't put on God's permanent incorruptible physical body either. That is all done for you, evidently by an angel.

 

[dfw69]

The spiritual birth was available at the Cross. If you think it is still future......

It’s available even now to obtain by faith but it has not yet taken place . Not until the appointed time to do so at His appearance

Just as flesh gives birth to flesh
The Spirit will give birth to Spirits and at the rapture this will be fulfilled when we are changed to become the sons of God

The giving of the Spirit at shavuot was in part and not to be confused with the full rebirth to come when the Spirit gives births to Spirit

Did Adam and Eve fly up to see God, or did God visit them on the earth?

God visit Adam

Adam was the first man given a garden to tend but failed and
Death came from him

Who is the second Adam ?

Eternal life comes from Him and
We all will bear His body
1 Corinthians 15:47-49

47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

What does this mean to you ?
Why give us the heavenly body but deny access to heaven?

You are literally claiming that all verses describing angels gathering the elect are not necessary.

No I’m saying that when the angels are send out by Jesus to gather the elect it will take place at another time from our gathering where no angels are required

We are not the elect that will be gathered by the angels

We are the children of the light that will be gathered by only one person which will be our Father from heaven who will transform our bodies to fly up to Him

The elect can move about creation without any help.

But they are in hiding and living in fear so the angels are sent out to assure them that the coast is clear the dangers have been eradicated peace and safety has finally come

The word caught up comes to mind. Can we do that without God's help? Can we rapture ourselves?

We cannot rapture ourselves nor can we inherit the kingdom of heaven in flesh and blood .. a new birth needs to take place first to inherit it to make it our home

When this physical body stops functioning, do we move our soul under our own will and power to heaven or sheol?

No I don’t believe so

Is that part of our conscious ability?

No I don’t believe so

Even at the Second Coming, the soul sheds Adam's dead corruptible physical body.

Not at the second coming but at His appearance for us …

we no not shed adams dead corruptible body it’s just been reborn to have a heavenly body like Jesus body was transformed to have a heavenly body

The body went from corruptible to incorruptible with no mention of shedding it off

It more like putting on new clothing and wearing something new over what is old

You don't take this body with you.

Jesus did

You don't transform this body.

Jesus did

You don't put on God's permanent incorruptible physical body either.

That’s not what Paul taught

That is all done for you, evidently by an angel.

That is not what Jesus said to nicodemus

 

[dfw69]

It tells me Jesus is God. We are not.

What can a heavenly body do?
What can it accomplish?
Can a heavenly body fly up to heaven?

Jesus has one, what was He able to do ? Appear and disappear? Change complexion? Hide His identity? Walk through walls? Eat food? Say “behold the holes on my hands and feet and touch them”?

Can a heavenly body wrestle with Jacob to touch it and shrink the sinew?

Can a heavenly body visit Sodom to seek out 10 righteous men?

Can a heavenly body one like the son of man stand inside a fiery furnace and prevent 3 mortal individuals from burning alive?

It’s cool knowing we get to receive one … personally I can’t wait to experience the Joy of it all when it happens

 

[Timtofly]

But they are in hiding and living in fear so the angels are sent out to assure them that the coast is clear the dangers have been eradicated peace and safety has finally come

You make no sense. Can they fly around, but then too afraid and have to hide?

 

[dfw69]

You make no sense. Can they fly around, but then too afraid and have to hide?

The ones that will be changed to become the children of God will be able to fly up as Jesus did… This change takes place pre trib when Christ comes to appear in the sky to take us to heaven not at the second coming

The ones gathered by the angels who are in hiding were hiding from the persecution of the Ac or hiding from the wrath of God ..after the coast is clear … the angels gather them because they were so afraid and this takes place after the trib at Christ 2nd Coming to earth to reign

 

[Timtofly]

The ones that will be changed to become the children of God will be able to fly up as Jesus did… This change takes place pre trib when Christ comes to appear in the sky to take us to heaven not at the second coming

The ones gathered by the angels who are in hiding were hiding from the persecution of the Ac or hiding from the wrath of God ..after the coast is clear … the angels gather them because they were so afraid and this takes place after the trib at Christ 2nd Coming to earth to reign

Why do you think some of the church get left behind? What about the vast majority of the church already physically enjoying Paradise, serving God day and night in the heavenly temple for the last 1993 years?

 

[dfw69]

Why do you think some of the church get left behind?

Lack of faith? Miss the mark? Fallen away from the faith? Not having the Spirit? Not wanting to go? Not prepared to give up their worldly lives? Afraid? Who knows ..

We reap what we sow … if we sow to the Spirit we reap the Spirit if we sow to the flesh we reap the flesh

If you want my honest opinion I believe it has something to do with returning to the law … the law is also leavened and old and ready to decay .. yet many leave church teachings such as the belief in the rapture and find returning to the law more pleasing to the ears

Paul mentioned returning to the law means you fall from the grace and favor that comes from the good news Galatians 5:2-5

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised,Christ will be of no value to you at all.3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope.

During the rapture we will be clothed in His righteousness and the law will be written in our hearts , this is our hope to be perfected before God our Father

Do you notice he says this one who returns to the law becomes alienated from the benefits of knowing messiah and has fallen away?

Jesus even mentioned putting your hands on the plow returning back is not fit to receive the kingdom … This means returning to the law will discredit one from receiving the kingdom of heaven

What about the vast majority of the church already physically enjoying Paradise, serving God day and night in the heavenly temple for the last 1993 years?

Their souls in heaven will return into their bodies on that day as Jesus was resurrected and also be able to fly upwards as Jesus did … Come to think of it since they also come with Jesus from heaven then they may assist Him in the leading us back to heaven knowing the way there

 

[Timtofly]

Their souls in heaven will return into their bodies on that day as Jesus was resurrected and also be able to fly upwards as Jesus did … Come to think of it since they also come with Jesus from heaven then they may assist Him in the leading us back to heaven knowing the way there.

How long is the waiting period in this verse:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

 

[dfw69]

How long is the waiting period in this verse:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Not sure why your asking this question… is it a trick question?

Many saints bodies now lay dissolved in the graves and the period has been some 1993 years but a time will come when they will receive there heavenly eternal tabernacle by way of rapture possibly in the near future