The Purpose of the Rapture.

[dfw69]

"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."

Are you saying a literal star hits the earth and opens up a hole straight to the bottomless pit?

No this is an living being from heaven

 

[Timtofly]

Reference please for Jesus being king for 3½ years in the future?

It is right there in the same chapter you claim Jesus sat on a throne for 3.5 years after Jesus was cut off.

It will not be for 3.5 years, so why would God include a lie into Scripture?

Those 3.5 years are cut short. They as 3.5 years, will never exist. We are not told how short. We are not told how long the time of Jacob's trouble will last. It would have been 3.5 years, but Jesus told us they will be cut short, and no one knows the day or hour this sitting on a throne will start. The Cross was the point of Messiah cut off, and Jesus declared it is finished. The 7th Trumpet has not yet sounded to declare the King part finished. Both Messiah and Prince to come make up the 70th week.

Your explanation of 3.5 years after the Cross is just human theological contrivance. No Scripture declares the 70th week was completed 3.5 years after the Cross.

 

[Timtofly]

No this is an living being from heaven

Then so are the stars in the 6th Seal. They are the angels Jesus claims in Matthew 13, 24, and 25 that He brings with Him to the earth.

The heavens are rolled back as a scroll. They will be devoid of stars, because all the stars are gathering humanity all at the same time, and some even come to earth and remain with Jesus as King on His throne, during the Trumpets and Thunders.

Many claim it is a "secret appearing". But think about it. Scripture claims every eye will see it happen. But Scripture does not verify that every human mind will comprehend the event, as it happens in a twinkling of an eye.

 

[David Kent]

It is right there in the same chapter you claim Jesus sat on a throne for 3.5 years after Jesus was cut off.

It will not be for 3.5 years, so why would God include a lie into Scripture?

Those 3.5 years are cut short. They as 3.5 years, will never exist. We are not told how short. We are not told how long the time of Jacob's trouble will last. It would have been 3.5 years, but Jesus told us they will be cut short, and no one knows the day or hour this sitting on a throne will start. The Cross was the point of Messiah cut off, and Jesus declared it is finished. The 7th Trumpet has not yet sounded to declare the King part finished. Both Messiah and Prince to come make up the 70th week.

Your explanation of 3.5 years after the Cross is just human theological contrivance. No Scripture declares the 70th week was completed 3.5 years after the Cross.

He can't be cut off in the middle of the week and the other half thrown into the future, that is nonsense.

 

[dfw69]

Then so are the stars in the 6th Seal. They are the angels Jesus claims in Matthew 13, 24, and 25 that He brings with Him to the earth.

I disagree because if it doesn’t specify that in the text then it’s not true …

The heavens are rolled back as a scroll. They will be devoid of stars, because all the stars are gathering humanity all at the same time, and some even come to earth and remain with Jesus as King on His throne, during the Trumpets and Thunders.

I don’t see it that way because
the opening of the 6 seal is clearly judgement and the effects on earth and its citizens prove that to be true …

The sun darken black color will have its effects on earth

The moon darken blood color will have its effects

The stars falling to earth will have its effects

The clouds disappear taking away rain

Every island and mountain moved by a great earthquake will have its effects on those that have hiding places in them

Many claim it is a "secret appearing".

Jesus does say He will appear to us and not the world in John 14:22-24 but nothing that mentions it’s a secret for many of His enemies already know of the Rapture but deny it

But think about it. Scripture claims every eye will see it happen.

This is His second coming to earth to reign that every eye will witness ….The rapture is before the wrath and before specific tribulations

But Scripture does not verify that every human mind will comprehend the event, as it happens in a twinkling of an eye.

The only thing that happens at a twinkling of an eye is the transformation of the living from human to immortal…This moment does not mean we disappear or vanish or even go up in a blink …

Personally I believe we as immortals after the change will be able to ascend up just like Jesus did 40 days later after His resurrection

 

[dfw69]

Not tribulation. Abomination. This is Hollywood's worse imagination of evil lived out literally on earth.

But Jesus said when you see the AOD those in judea flee to the mountains for great tribulation is coming because of it Matt 24:15-26 This is when the FP will cause all to receive the mark to worship the image of the beast

There are no martyrs, and no persecution of the righteous. There are no righteous.

They have fled being forwarded by the 144000 most likely

There are some fed up with the system, who to avoid the mark, choose to chop off their head instead. Fence sitters who are to flee from all the debauchery. They have to decide to choose life or remain in Adam's dead state for eternity. The decision cannot be forced by others. It has to be their own choice to make. Once the choice is made, it is permanent. No going back and forth, one minute with a head, then without, and then head back on. And no taking the mark, removing it, taking it again. This is not like today where one goes back and forth pretending to be saved one minute, and lost the next.

I don’t believe it’s going down this way you proposed…

The mark and those that choose to accept it will be antichrist meaning they will not accept the the father has a son … so they believe that doctrine is satanic and a lie

These will side instead with a man that they believe will be the incarnation of God …

These will have killed the saints who still believe in the father and son doctrine and do not fear the judgments and wrath though it’s being poured out because they have the Beast and FP and seek to battle against the Father and Son doctrine

While some are arguing over whether or not there are sacrifices or a new temple or not, that is not what the meaning is about, sacrifices taken away.

When the AC comes it’s foretold he will stop the daily sacrifices and cause the AOD and Jesus said let them in Judea flee

The AOD comes from Judea

The salvation by faith is taken away.

The just shall live by faith up till He returns imo .. justified by faith will continue up till He returns

The second birth is taken away.

The first resurrection make up all the second birth

That is what is stopped in the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet. Chopping one's head off is the testimony of salvation. Those beheaded still have to stand before thrones and be judged. The church was judged on the Cross. The sheep stand in judgment before Jesus as King on His throne. Even the wheat are judged by Jesus as He is the one sowing and reaping. The difference is that the sheep and the wheat are the army coming to Armageddon. Those beheaded still have to wait until after Armageddon and Satan is bound. They are judged as part of the restoration of earth, preparing for the first day of the Millennium.

The great tribulation saints are seen in heaven and make the first resurrection

There is no judgment nor tribulation pointed towards any particular group of people during the AoD.

That’s not true Jesus said in Matt 24:25-28 that the AOD brings great tribulation and judea flees to the mountains and then says do not go after any messiah type figure in those days as a clear warning for everyone

Every one is equally an abomination.

The AOD is an idol in the temple in Jerusalem in the future that the FP will seek judeans and Israel to worship and the idol is in the image of the beast

The wrath is poured out after the 42 months, during the 3.5 days those 2 witnesses lay dead in the street in Jerusalem. The only repeated event in Revelation is the earthquake in Revelation 11:13 and in Revelation 16:18-19

"And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

"And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

Later that day between 5pm and 6pm is the battle of Armageddon.

 

[Timtofly]

He can't be cut off in the middle of the week and the other half thrown into the future, that is nonsense.

So is the Gospel to the majority of humanity. Jesus did not set up His earthly throne which is just as tangible as the Cross was. If you claim a physical throne is not necessary, you are a hypocrite to then say the physical Cross was necessary.

 

[Timtofly]

I don’t see it that way because
the opening of the 6 seal is clearly judgement and the effects on earth and its citizens prove that to be true …

The opening of the 6th Seal is the Second Coming and every thing about it including all the angels coming to earth. All mankind's works are burned up. Every one will be rebuilding after the 6th Seal. By the end of the 42 months of AoD, all that was built, will be destroyed and replaced all over again.

 

[dfw69]

The opening of the 6th Seal is the Second Coming and every thing about it including all the angels coming to earth.

Your wrong about this because there is no mentioning of Jesus returning to earth at the opening of the 6th seal in Revelation

The 6th seal is the sign that announces the time has come for the 7 trumpets judgements and 7 vails will be coming after that

All mankind's works are burned up. Every one will be rebuilding after the 6th Seal.

No everyone will be in hiding until the AC and FP comes to gather many of them up with a false hope that they can defeat the Father and Son who is causing judgement to fall upon them

Jesus warns in those days not to go after them that say messiah has come and those that do not believe in the Father and Son doctrine will be lead astray by the AC and FP who they will believe is God and Elijah

By the end of the 42 months of AoD, all that was built, will be destroyed and replaced all over again.

At the end of the AOD Jesus comes down with the armies from Heaven to put down the rebellion against Him and establishes the millennium

 

[David Kent]

So is the Gospel to the majority of humanity. Jesus did not set up His earthly throne which is just as tangible as the Cross was. If you claim a physical throne is not necessary, you are a hypocrite to then say the physical Cross was necessary.

"My kingdom is not of this world" - Jesus.

 

[David Kent]

So is the Gospel to the majority of humanity. Jesus did not set up His earthly throne which is just as tangible as the Cross was. If you claim a physical throne is not necessary, you are a hypocrite to then say the physical Cross was necessary.

Same answer as before.
"My kingdom is not of this world" - Jesus.

 

[Timtofly]

Your wrong about this because there is no mentioning of Jesus returning to earth at the opening of the 6th seal in Revelation.

Of course there is. All on earth can see the Lamb is come. All can see God sitting on the GWT. The only thing missing is the mention of the LOF. But it should be there as well. Zechariah 14 is the opening of the 6th Seal. It clearly shows Jesus coming to the Mount of Olives.

Revelation 19 is not to the Mount of Olives. Revelation 19 is to the Mount of Megiddo 42 months after the 7th Trumpet, when Jesus left with the 144k until Satan's 42 months were over.

 

[Timtofly]

"My kingdom is not of this world" - Jesus.

Not that kingdom. The one after the Second Coming. The Messiah was God on earth. The Prince to Come is Jesus as King on the earth. That kingdom.

The Church is the heavenly kingdom of God. Jesus as Prince will be King in Jerusalem per Matthew 25:31.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats."

 

[dfw69]

Of course there is. All on earth can see the Lamb is come.

Not at the opening of the 6th seal … He comes after the seals , trumpets and bowls of judgement

All can see God sitting on the GWT.

Which takes place after the millennium

The only thing missing is the mention of the LOF.

Which takes place after the GWT judgement which is after the millennium

But it should be there as well.

There is a process the 6th seal gives way to the 7 trumpets which gives way to 7 bowls judgement with specific purposes the the return the regathering the rebuilding the millennium then last rebellion then Gwt judgement and casting into lake of fire

Zechariah 14 is the opening of the 6th Seal. It clearly shows Jesus coming to the Mount of Olives.

There is no mentioning of 7 seals being open in Zech 14

Revelation 19 is not to the Mount of Olives. Revelation 19 is to the Mount of Megiddo

Granted.. but in the description there’s no mentioning of Him actually standing on earth to slay those that have gathered at mt Megiddo… For all we know He’s may be flying around on a white horse slaying His enemies but eventually He will literally stand on mt olives afterwards

42 months after the 7th Trumpet, when Jesus left with the 144k until Satan's 42 months were over.

There is no mentioning of Jesus coming down to earth to gather the 144000 up to take them to heaven 31/2 years after the opening of 1 seal

The 144000 are sealed after the 6th seal by an angel and are protected from the trumpet judgements and are caught up as the manchild before the 7 bowl judgement

 

[David Kent]

Not that kingdom. The one after the Second Coming. The Messiah was God on earth. The Prince to Come is Jesus as King on the earth. That kingdom.

"My kingdom is not of this world" - Jesus.

The Church is the heavenly kingdom of God. Jesus as Prince will be King in Jerusalem per Matthew 25:31.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats."

Jesus kingdom is now. He is king of his perople. It is a spiriyual kingdom.

His kingdom is not of this world

 

[dfw69]

Jesus kingdom is now. He is king of his perople. It is a spiriyual kingdom.

His kingdom is not of this world

Rev 11:15 The seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven saying, The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.

When this takes place at the sounding off of the 7th trumpet all the kingdoms of this world will belong to God and His Son who will reign over them forever.

As of now they are ruled by evil men and satan has control over them until he is cast down

You cannot be proclaimed King of kings and Lord of lords until you actually exercise that authority and actually rule over what goes on and takes place in this world. This all begins with the casting out of satan to earth and implementing the 3rd woe on His enemies

 

[Timtofly]

Not at the opening of the 6th seal … He comes after the seals , trumpets and bowls of judgement


Which takes place after the millennium



Which takes place after the GWT judgement which is after the millennium


There is a process the 6th seal gives way to the 7 trumpets which gives way to 7 bowls judgement with specific purposes the the return the regathering the rebuilding the millennium then last rebellion then Gwt judgement and casting into lake of fire



There is no mentioning of 7 seals being open in Zech 14


Granted.. but in the description there’s no mentioning of Him actually standing on earth to slay those that have gathered at mt Megiddo… For all we know He’s may be flying around on a white horse slaying His enemies but eventually He will literally stand on mt olives afterwards



There is no mentioning of Jesus coming down to earth to gather the 144000 up to take them to heaven 31/2 years after the opening of 1 seal

The 144000 are sealed after the 6th seal by an angel and are protected from the trumpet judgements and are caught up as the manchild before the 7 bowl judgement

The GWT has always been. It does not pop into existence after the Millennium. That is the last time it is seen. You are not paying attention to anything that is happening at the 6th Seal.

Your process of the Seals opening up the rest of the book is human theology, not found anywhere in Scripture.

You don't think Jesus ever comes to earth, do you?

Jesus is on the earth with the 144k from the 6th Seal until the 7th Trumpet. Then God decides if Satan gets 42 months or not. If Satan is not allowed 42 months, Jesus and the 144k stay on the earth throughout the Millennial Kingdom.

The Second Coming is not all 7 Seals being opened. Why would every single mention of the Second Coming in Scripture talk about Seals. The Seals are John's description of events that include the Second Coming. John does not give all the same points Paul does. Paul does not give all the same points Peter does. Peter does not give all the same points Jesus does. Jesus does not give all the same points John does. Each writer gives us a different set of actions. None of them contradict nor overrule the other's points.

Revelation 19 only happens if Jesus returns after 42 months. As pointed out, those 42 months may or may not happen. Gabriel pointed out to Daniel, in Daniel 9:27 it happens. John writes about the 42 months in Revelation 13. However they are dependent on what God decides at that moment. They deal with the confirmation of the Atonement, and who is left on earth after the final harvest has been declared complete. Jesus already declared the days of the Prince to come part would be shortened. That means the Prince to come (Jesus Christ), now has less days on earth as King, than what Gabriel told Daniel. The longer the Second Coming does not happen, the less time is allotted as given in any prophecy, simply because Jesus said the days would be shortened.

The people of the first century, even Paul expected the Second Coming and kingdom set up in their day. Many were looking for the Prince to Come, and rejected the Messiah part. Even so today, every expectation is based on one's own experiences instead of really understanding the Word of God. Some even claim Zechariah 14 was fulfilled at the first coming, and not about the Second Coming at all. Some claim the NHNE is the NT church. And even people who claim the same eschatology, do not always agree with each other.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus kingdom is now. He is king of his perople. It is a spiriyual kingdom.

His kingdom is not of this world

Jesus was Messiah on earth under the submission of God. That kingdom was God's kingdom. Jesus was not a physical king until the resurrection, after He was obedient in death.

You are rejecting a future kingdom as yet to be fulfilled. Jesus was not granted the authority to return as Prince. The 7th Trumpet has not sounded declaring Jesus as King over every nation.

Of course God's kingdom is spiritual, and being gathered in Paradise. No one gets Paradise right either. Do you think souls are just floating around all over the firmament? Is that your kingdom? God's Kingdom is now, and forever. The 7th Trumpet declares Jesus as King on an earthly throne over earthly nations.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

After God's kingdom is complete, Jesus will be the king on earth, until the earth is subdued. Then Jesus will hand back the entire creation, and heaven and earth will be no more. God then creates the NHNE per Revelation 21.

 

[dfw69]

The GWT has always been. It does not pop into existence after the Millennium.

True but the judgement that is mentioned in rev that judges the dead both small and great take place after the millennium and last rebellion

You are not paying attention to anything that is happening at the 6th Seal.

I am paying attention…..your interpretation of it is not correct brother

Your process of the Seals opening up the rest of the book is human theology, not found anywhere in Scripture.

Is that what it is?

You don't think Jesus ever comes to earth, do you?

For sure ..most definitely .. you can count on it …why would you say that? I’m pro Jesus reigning on earth … another ai glitch

Jesus is on the earth with the 144k from the 6th Seal until the 7th Trumpet.

How you figure that with no mentioning of Him descending and meeting up with the 144000 then returning to heaven ?

The Second Coming is not all 7 Seals being opened. Why would every single mention of the Second Coming in Scripture talk about Seals.

Idk what happened here …another ai glitch

No The Seals are John's description of events that include the Second Coming.

I agree except for the second coming part

John does not give all the same points Paul does.

That’s because John time and season is taking place at the end of the age and Paul rapture points take place many years before

Paul does not give all the same points Peter does.

Peter does not give all the same points Jesus does. Jesus does not give all the same points John does. Each writer gives us a different set of actions. None of them contradict nor overrule the other's points.

Yes I agree…

Revelation 19 only happens if Jesus returns after 42 months.

Why prophecy of things to come if they are not to come ?

Idu why you think it’s conditional

As pointed out, those 42 months may or may not happen. Gabriel pointed out to Daniel, in Daniel 9:27 it happens. John writes about the 42 months in Revelation 13. However they are dependent on what God decides at that moment. They deal with the confirmation of the Atonement, and who is left on earth after the final harvest has been declared complete. Jesus already declared the days of the Prince to come part would be shortened. That means the Prince to come (Jesus Christ), now has less days on earth as King, than what Gabriel told Daniel. The longer the Second Coming does not happen, the less time is allotted as given in any prophecy, simply because Jesus said the days would be shortened.

The events will happen as prophecied and the only thing shortened is the length of time of the great tribulation otherwise no flesh will be saved

The people of the first century, even Paul expected the Second Coming and kingdom set up in their day.

No not true but you can provide scripture if you wish I don’t see that anywhere in his text

Many were looking for the Prince to Come, and rejected the Messiah part.

Well they were wrong in doing so because the time has not yet come but the AC comes before the messiah as rev states

Even so today, every expectation is based on one's own experiences instead of really understanding the Word of God.

We need to stand on the word and the word states a rapture first before the wrath then tribulation then AC and AOD and great tribulation then return of Jesus then the millennial etc

Some even claim Zechariah 14 was fulfilled at the first coming,
and not about the Second Coming at all.

Yes it falls on mystery Babylon and her lies and deceptions against the truth through the many false doctrines she created for many to choose from

Some claim the NHNE is the NT church.

To take away from the real deal yet to come

And even people who claim the same eschatology, do not always agree with each other.

It’s blamed on mystery Babylon who creates confusion to confound the beliefs of the nations so that the truth is hidden

 

[Timtofly]

How you figure that with no mentioning of Him descending and meeting up with the 144000 then returning to heaven ?

See, you don't understand the 6th Seal.

Jesus is on earth at the 6th Seal. The 144k are sealed. Do you think Jesus will go around the earth choosing his 144k disciples like He did the original 12 disciples? Or did some come to Him as well? The 144k are on the earth, when sealed. Then the 7th Seal is opened.

"These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth."

They are on the earth. The Lamb is on the earth. If the Lamb leaves the earth, the 144k leave the earth. Otherwise they are the camp of the saints all the way to the end. They are always with the Lamb whether the Lamb is on the earth or waiting on Mount Zion. If they leave with the Lamb and the Lamb returns on a white horse, then they return on white horses. But they are sealed after the Lamb is on the earth. They follow the Lamb after they are sealed. They don't even know the Lamb until after they are sealed. If they knew the Lamb before the 5th and 6th Seal they would be in heaven with the church, and not on the earth.