The Purpose of the Rapture.

[Timtofly]

Well they were wrong in doing so because the time has not yet come but the AC comes before the messiah as rev states

They all wrote prior to Revelation. Revelation does not mention the AC, once. Paul said, we. Paul did not claim the Second Coming was thousands of years in the future. The thousand year reign of Christ on earth was not revealed to any other Writer of the NT other than John. Unless you think Daniel himself knew that times, time, and half a time is actually 3500 years. I doubt you even accept that point.

They were not wrong in expecting the Second Coming to happen. No one knew how far out the Second Coming was in the future, except Daniel.

 

[dfw69]

See, you don't understand the 6th Seal.

Jesus is on earth at the 6th Seal. The 144k are sealed. Do you think Jesus will go around the earth choosing his 144k disciples like He did the original 12 disciples? Or did some come to Him as well? The 144k are on the earth, when sealed. Then the 7th Seal is opened.

"These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth."

They are on the earth. The Lamb is on the earth. If the Lamb leaves the earth, the 144k leave the earth. Otherwise they are the camp of the saints all the way to the end. They are always with the Lamb whether the Lamb is on the earth or waiting on Mount Zion. If they leave with the Lamb and the Lamb returns on a white horse, then they return on white horses. But they are sealed after the Lamb is on the earth. They follow the Lamb after they are sealed. They don't even know the Lamb until after they are sealed. If they knew the Lamb before the 5th and 6th Seal they would be in heaven with the church, and not on the earth.

Will see …I don’t believe it to be so because it’s not written down in the text as you think it will happen

I don’t see Jesus returning at the 6th seal then walking around sealing 144000 to return to heaven with them to protect them from the trumpet judgements …I can see a false messiah doing that to deceive for whatever purpose ..

Jesus does not begin His decent till after specific things takes place … So to go after a messiah when they begin to say “here is the messsiah gathering his 144000” will lead one to follow falsehood…

 

[dfw69]

They all wrote prior to Revelation.

Yes

Revelation does not mention the AC, once.

True… but it does mention 2 men as the Beast and FP and one of them is worshiped as God

These 2 are fighting against God and His Son so they are AC in spirit seeking to mislead the Jewish people and persecuting those who will not obey to worship His erected image in the temple

Paul said, we.

We …as in we “the believers” that are alive and remain “at” the coming of the Lord are to be gathered after the dead are raised up first …so that we all are to be saved from the second death and future gwt judgement …for death will be swallowed up in victory … death cannot hold His children in the graves forever .. a resurrection is necessary for the children of God

Paul would be a false prophet if he was revealing that a rapture was taking place in His day which clearly did not happen…

Paul did not claim the Second Coming was thousands of years in the future.

Actually he said that the day of the Lord which is the coming day of wrath and the taking away of human gov from the rulers of the earth to establish a divine gov will not take place until 2 things takes place first…. Which suggests that it could be 1000s of years away …

The thousand year reign of Christ on earth was not revealed to any other Writer of the NT other than John.

Do you need 2 witnesses to validate that Jesus reigns 1000 years? I’m good with just the one description in revelation

So because the 1000 year reign is not validated by any other author are you gonna dismiss it as truth?

Unless you think Daniel himself knew that times, time, and half a time is actually 3500 years. I doubt you even accept that point.

time times and half a time is 3 1/2 years referring to the AOD and the end of it …

Correct it’s not 3500 years …

They were not wrong in expecting the Second Coming to happen.

They nor we should expect the 2nd coming anytime soon…

And the only time anyone expected the 2nd coming were the deceived Thessalonians who had to be corrected by Paul

The prophecies are not yet lining up for the second coming …

No one knew how far out the Second Coming was in the future, except Daniel.

But they had Daniel 12 to reference from which clearly says the AOD takes place and how long it lasts and it happens at the end of days

 

[Timtofly]

Paul would be a false prophet if he was revealing that a rapture was taking place in His day which clearly did not happen…

Paul was not making a false prophecy. That is not the point, even if he expected the Second Coming in his day. He never says when. He just expected it as the hope of the believer. There is a difference between setting a date and expecting the Second Coming. No one knew when, they just expected it.

Separating the rapture from the Second Coming is a false prophecy.

Nothing needs to happen before the Second Coming. A lot can happen prior to the Day of the Lord, which is the Millennial Kingdom. Jesus warned of false christs even during His earthly ministry in the first century. And that was just in the ME. At the Second Coming which effects the entire earth, there will be antichrists appearing as well. That does not negate the point Jesus is physically on the earth with His angels for the final harvest.

The last 2 days have been the last 2 millennia. The 3rd day is the Day of the Lord. Times, time, and half a time since Daniel. God put in the Law humans would only work for 6 days. It was in relationship with the 6 literal days of creation. God would not punish Adam's descendants longer than 6 days.

 

[dfw69]

Paul was not making a false prophecy. That is not the point, even if he expected the Second Coming in his day. He never says when. He just expected it as the hope of the believer. There is a difference between setting a date and expecting the Second Coming. No one knew when, they just expected it.

No I don’t see that in scripture at all nor do I believe we are supposed to look for it as if we can expect to go through that … it’s for those lost and in darkness which deny the Father and Son doctrine and deny Jesus teaching to love forgive judge not condemn not which is going to be more prominent in the near future

Separating the rapture from the Second Coming is a false prophecy.

No this is a false statement and false judgement

Nothing needs to happen before the Second Coming.

That’s not what scripture teaches

A lot can happen prior to the Day of the Lord, which is the Millennial Kingdom.

Not in our lifetime…nothing is going to unseat him from his heavenly seat until the time for Him to come take what is rightfully His takes place

Jesus warned of false christs even during His earthly ministry in the first century. And that was just in the ME.

More are expected to come …

At the Second Coming which effects the entire earth, there will be antichrists appearing as well.

Yep

That does not negate the point Jesus is physically on the earth with His angels for the final harvest.

The final harvest is to gather the elect yes he and his angels will do so

The last 2 days have been the last 2 millennia.

Peters a day with the lord is as 1000 years just says Gods time is different from the way we see time … what seems like a long time to us like 1000 years is like a day spent with God

The 3rd day is the Day of the Lord. Times, time, and half a time since Daniel.

That’s not the correct way to interpret this verse Daniel was referring to the AOD and not giving a date on the second coming

God put in the Law humans would only work for 6 days. It was in relationship with the 6 literal days of creation. God would not punish Adam's descendants longer than 6 days.

But no one really knows what day it is …

they say from Adam to noah was 2000 years
From Noah to Christ 2000 years
From Christ till now 2000 years but no one truly has the correct dates .. we could be 500 years off give or take

 

[Timtofly]

we could be 500 years off give or take

A 500 year margin of error is not Scriptural nor logical.

 

[dfw69]

A 500 year margin of error is not Scriptural nor logical.

So u expect Jesus to return because of a 6000 year prophecy and if you don’t see it in your lifetime instead the Jews find a messiah and establish the so called kingdom of heaven what will you think next?

Because if deny the faith after that you will be one of the fallen away …jsyk

 

[Timtofly]

So u expect Jesus to return because of a 6000 year prophecy and if you don’t see it in your lifetime instead the Jews find a messiah and establish the so called kingdom of heaven what will you think next?

Because if deny the faith after that you will be one of the fallen away …jsyk

You think God won't keep His Word?

 

[dfw69]

You think God won't keep His Word?

Of course He will man .. but I’m saying it’s not going to take place anytime soon because the 6000 year prophecy is unknown no one knows the correct dates ….that’s why i ask you those questions

 

[Timtofly]

Of course He will man .. but I’m saying it’s not going to take place anytime soon because the 6000 year prophecy is unknown no one knows the correct dates ….that’s why i ask you those questions

There are plenty of dates and times given in Scripture. They just don't always jive with any human understanding of time keeping.
We have an approximate calendar system. And computers help adjust a digital calendar fairly accurately. So unless you think that people have added time into the last 1993 years and it has really only been 1500 years since 30AD, how can you prove it has only been 1500 years instead of 1993 years?

 

[dfw69]

There are plenty of dates and times given in Scripture. They just don't always jive with any human understanding of time keeping.
We have an approximate calendar system. And computers help adjust a digital calendar fairly accurately. So unless you think that people have added time into the last 1993 years and it has really only been 1500 years since 30AD, how can you prove it has only been 1500 years instead of 1993 years?

No I’m not doubting that there has been approximately 2000 since Jesus ….I’m saying from Adam to Noah and from Noah to Christ could possibly be off by 500 years or so …

Nonetheless you will see that Jesus will not be returning to reign on earth anytime soon … and if anyone says here is Christ do not believe it nor go after them … that is what Jesus himself warns

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Of course He will man .. but I’m saying it’s not going to take place anytime soon because the 6000 year prophecy is unknown no one knows the correct dates ….that’s why i ask you those questions

No one knows the correct dates because the Little Horn has changed time and laws. In the ancient time there was a lunar calendar, each month started from the first sighting of the new moon, length could vary from 28 to 30 days, every two to three years a leap month was added, and people mostly counted periods of times by Sabbath. That's why there was the omer count for Pentecost - count seven Sabbaths from the festival of Firstfruit, which always falls on a sunday, and the 50th day, also sunday, would be the date of Pentecost. They didn't mark it on a calendar, they counted Sabbaths. Today this system is gone. Even though it is very clear that the Lord is scheduled to return in the season of fall festivals, starting with the Yom T'ruach, the festival of Trumpets, nobody knows which day that is on modern Gregorian calendar.

 

[Timtofly]

No I’m not doubting that there has been approximately 2000 since Jesus ….I’m saying from Adam to Noah and from Noah to Christ could possibly be off by 500 years or so …

Nonetheless you will see that Jesus will not be returning to reign on earth anytime soon … and if anyone says here is Christ do not believe it nor go after them … that is what Jesus himself warns

And we will still do nothing at the Second Coming. God removes the church, not the church left to remove all on the church's own power.

 

[dfw69]

No one knows the correct dates because the Little Horn has changed time and laws.

The little horn is not born yet he comes after the 10 horns which I believe are the 10 lost tribes of Israel reestablished

I believe Mystery Babylon is to blame for the confusion

In the ancient time there was a lunar calendar, each month started from the first sighting of the new moon, length could vary from 28 to 30 days, every two to three years a leap month was added, and people mostly counted periods of times by Sabbath. That's why there was the omer count for Pentecost - count seven Sabbaths from the festival of Firstfruit, which always falls on a sunday, and the 50th day, also sunday, would be the date of Pentecost. They didn't mark it on a calendar, they counted Sabbaths. Today this system is gone.

I know …I like that I know when Passover takes place looking for the full moon in the middle of the month of Aviv

Even though it is very clear that the Lord is scheduled to return in the season of fall festivals, starting with the Yom T'ruach, the festival of Trumpets, nobody knows which day that is on modern Gregorian calendar.

I always thought He comes on Pentecost to gather the wheat harvest but idk about that

 

[dfw69]

And we will still do nothing at the Second Coming. God removes the church, not the church left to remove all on the church's own power.

I don’t understand this statement

When Jesus finally does comes to earth to establish the Jewish kingdom as the messiah and Son of David, He will gather the tares (those who fight against Him and will not want this man to reign over them) first. Then He will send His angels to gather the elect

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I always thought He comes on Pentecost to gather the wheat harvest but idk about that

No, the final gathering is at the festival of trumpets, the first day of the seventh month, trumpets are blown as the signal of gathering. The seven trumpets in Revelation is kind of a heavenly practice of this, in those days, angels are the priests blowing the trumpets (shofar). The last trumpet in 1 Cor. 15:52 is referring to the final blow on the Day of Atonement, that's a unique one, a series of high-pitched short blasts, historically that's a signal for soldiers to charge in military combat, it's a very distinctive sound that won't be mixed with gunshot and other nosies. When this trumpet sounds, Yeshua will lead his army to charge from heaven, hence the second coming in Rev. 19:11-16.

Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. (Lev. 23:24-25)
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt. 24:31)
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (1 Thess. 1:16)
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15:52)

 

[dfw69]

No, the final gathering is at the festival of trumpets, the first day of the seventh month, trumpets are blown as the signal of gathering.

During the 10 days of awe 10 blast takes place at this time right? It’s a unforeseen rehearsal for a future event that is not known nor revealed so it may not necessarily be a call to gather

The seven trumpets in Revelation is kind of a heavenly practice of this,

The 7 trumpets are 7 specific judgments

in those days, angels are the priests blowing the trumpets (shofar).

Yes

The last trumpet in 1 Cor. 15:52 is referring to the final blow on the Day of Atonement,

I don’t believe so because 10 trumpets sound for unknown reasons and the 10th last trump blows longer but also of unknown purpose

that's a unique one, a series of high-pitched short blasts, historically that's a signal for soldiers to charge in military combat, it's a very distinctive sound that won't be mixed with gunshot and other nosies. When this trumpet sounds, Yeshua will lead his army to charge from heaven, hence the second coming in Rev. 19:11-16.

So the last trump which is the 10th trumpet is a series of short blast ? Like how many blast ?

Perhaps it’s a battle cry to go forth to battle those that gather at har meggido idk

This could not be the one that changes the living immortal so it can’t be confused with the first and last trump of the Rapture

Speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. (Lev. 23:24-25)

What does an offering made by fire signify?

And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt. 24:31)

This is only one trumpet sounding off to send off His angels to gather the elect.. This trumpet is for His angels to do a task …one blast

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (1 Thess. 1:16)
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15:52)

This is two blast with 2 distinct purposes one awaken the dead and two change the living immortal I call them the first and the last trumpet of the rapture

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

So the last trump which is the 10th trumpet is a series of short blast ? Like how many blast ?

Perhaps it’s a battle cry to go forth to battle those that gather at har meggido idk

This could not be the one that changes the living immortal so it can’t be confused with the first and last trump of the Rapture

Yeah, that's a battle cry, as I said, a signal to charge. This was used up to WWII, you can see in some old films that when this trumpet was blown, a series of rhythmic short blasts, soldiers jumped out of the trench and began to charge toward the enemy. It's a very fitting scenario for the battle of Armaggideon.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

What does an offering made by fire signify?

This is only one trumpet sounding off to send off His angels to gather the elect.. This trumpet is for His angels to do a task …one blast

This is two blast with 2 distinct purposes one awaken the dead and two change the living immortal I call them the first and the last trumpet of the rapture

Just one word: gathering.

 

[dfw69]

Just one word: gathering.

Thanks