The Problem of Omnipotence?

[quatona]

Like I just said, the evidence that can be provided to you is not the kind you would be willing to accept.

Obviously, it´s the kind of evidence you wouldn´t accept either - were it not for the particular God you believe in.

Would you accept a person's experiences?

Sure - as evidence for their experience and interpretation thereof.
What do you accept other persons´experience as evidence for?

Would you even accept the amazing complexity of the universe, or even of living beings?

Sure. As evidence for their complexity.

What about unexplained miracles?

Well, since they are "unexplained" - what are they supposed to be accepted as evidence for?

What about fulfilled prophecy?

I´m intrigued. Bring them to the table. They certainly can be considered evidence for a special ability of the prophet. For the God of your preference - not so much.

Would you accept any of this as evidence?

You mean as evidence for the God you happen to believe in? No, of course not. It isn´t evidence for that.
And you wouldn´t either.

 

[quatona]

dp

 

[Aldebaran]

What about fulfilled prophecy?
​

I´m intrigued. Bring them to the table. They certainly can be considered evidence for a special ability of the prophet. For the God of your preference - not so much.

If the prophet claimed that he got the prophecy from God, and the prophecy comes to pass, would you believe God gave it to him?

 

[quatona]

What about fulfilled prophecy?
​

If the prophet claimed that he got the prophecy from God, and the prophecy comes to pass, would you believe God gave it to him?

Not necessarily, of course - that´s what only gullible persons would do. Many questions would have to be asked, many particularities considered.
But it would be at least a start.
Bring it on.

 

[Aldebaran]

Not necessarily, of course - that´s what only gullible persons would do. Many questions would have to be asked, many particularities considered.
But it would be at least a start.
Bring it on.

Amazing! So you're saying that if a person makes a prophecy in the name of God, and claims God gave him the information, you would consider those who accepted it to be gullible? That's a clear sign of someone who will find any excuse to not believe something.

Jesus was correct in saying that if people didn't believe the prophets, they would believe if someone rose from the dead either.

 

[quatona]

Amazing! So you're saying that if a person makes a prophecy in the name of God, and claims God gave him the information, you would consider those who accepted it to be gullible?

Yes, as I said: I would consider those who would accept that without further questions and considerations gullible.
And so would you - when it comes to prophecies made in the name of Gods you don´t believe in.
If we believed such stuff without further questioning, we would have to believe in a lot of different Gods.

That's a clear sign of someone who will find any excuse to not believe something.

Nonsense. You just want special treatment.
You haven´t even provided a single fulfilled prophecy yet, and already are trying to use your hypothetical as an opportunity to smear me.

Jesus was correct in saying that if people didn't believe the prophets, they would believe if someone rose from the dead either.

Yes, Jesus was quite correct there. You wouldn´t believe me if I told you I rose from the dead. So give me a break.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Amazing! So you're saying that if a person makes a prophecy in the name of God, and claims God gave him the information, you would consider those who accepted it to be gullible? That's a clear sign of someone who will find any excuse to not believe something.

Jesus was correct in saying that if people didn't believe the prophets, they would believe if someone rose from the dead either.

When the prophecies are so vague that literally it would be more astounding if they didn't come true eventually, yes, it makes you gullible for believing them divine.

 

[Aldebaran]

Quatona:
I noticed that when I click on "quote" to reply to you, it doesn't work. It works when I use it for everyone else, but not you. It might be something you could tell a moderator about so it will make it easier for you to know when someone is replying to one of your posts.

You haven´t even provided a single fulfilled prophecy yet, and already are trying to use your hypothetical as an opportunity to smear me.

How about 353 of them? I'll even make a prediction of my own. You will find a way to say they don't count. But here it is anyway. http://www.accordingtothescriptures.org/prophecy/353prophecies.html

 

[PsychoSarah]

Quatona:
I noticed that when I click on "quote" to reply to you, it doesn't work. It works when I use it for everyone else, but not you. It might be something you could tell a moderator about so it will make it easier for you to know when someone is replying to one of your posts.



How about 353 of them? I'll even make a prediction of my own. You will find a way to say they don't count. But here it is anyway. http://www.accordingtothescriptures.org/prophecy/353prophecies.html

Most of those events didn't even provably happen. If say, Satan doesn't exist, that sort of trashes that one entirely. You can't just claim prophecies were fulfilled, you have to have evidence, preferably from multiple historical sources, that the predicted events did in fact occur, and that the prophecy in regards to them was made before those events.

 

[Aldebaran]

Most of those events didn't even provably happen. If say, Satan doesn't exist, that sort of trashes that one entirely. You can't just claim prophecies were fulfilled, you have to have evidence, preferably from multiple historical sources, that the predicted events did in fact occur, and that the prophecy in regards to them was made before those events.

You're basically saying someone should have come up with the idea of following Jesus around with a video camera (reality TV style). I guess history never happened before you were born either.

Some young people actually think the Titanic disaster never really happened either. But whatever.

 

[PsychoSarah]

You're basically saying someone should have come up with the idea of following Jesus around with a video camera (reality TV style). I guess history never happened before you were born either.

Some young people actually think the Titanic disaster never really happened either. But whatever.

Then explain to me exactly why you disregard miracles and prophecies associated with Vishnu and other gods but not those from the one you associate with

 

[quatona]

Quatona:
I noticed that when I click on "quote" to reply to you, it doesn't work. It works when I use it for everyone else, but not you. It might be something you could tell a moderator about so it will make it easier for you to know when someone is replying to one of your posts.

It´s a miracle I perform in the name of atheism.

(Actually, I have this problem all the time with several posters. I have seen many posters mentioned "the quote function doesn´t work, again", etc. But of course that doesn´t mean that in my particular case it isn´t a miracle I am working. )

How about 353 of them?

Can´t discuss 353 claims simultaneously. Pick one.

I'll even make a prediction of my own. You will find a way to say they don't count.

It´s entirely possible that after looking at the evidence and particularities I will come to that conclusion. But let´s not rash things.
Here´s my prediction: You´ll file every critical question under "doesn´t want to believe, wouldn´t even believe if the evidence would be better than it is."

Here´s another prediction of my own (made in the name of Cthulu, btw.): 1+1=3. You´ll find a way to say I´m wrong.

 

[quatona]

Some young people actually think the Titanic disaster never really happened either.

Even worse, many of them doubt the existence of Harry Potter.

 

[Aldebaran]

Can´t discuss 353 claims simultaneously. Pick one.

Oh come on! You don't need to discuss them all. You wanted prophecies that were fulfilled. I gave you a list of 353 of them fulfilled by Christ alone. Now, what are the odds of that? Very slim, to say the least. I think it's enough evidence that God exists, and that Christ is who He says He is.

 

[quatona]

Oh come on! You don't need to discuss them all. You wanted prophecies that were fulfilled. I gave you a list of 353 of them fulfilled by Christ alone.

You gave me a website that makes this claim. And, as you already know, claims need to be scrutinized. I mean, it takes even the Pope months or years of investigation until he confirms a miracle.

Now, what are the odds of that? Very slim, to say the least. I think it's enough evidence that God exists, and that Christ is who He says He is.

Provided a lot of premises (that you would never even try to verify, and don´t want me to check), it would possibly good evidence.
You, however, want me to accept the claim on a website on face value and be amazed by the number "353".

 

[Aldebaran]

Originally Posted by Aldebaran

Oh come on! You don't need to discuss them all. You wanted prophecies that were fulfilled. I gave you a list of 353 of them fulfilled by Christ alone.
​

You gave me a website that makes this claim. And, as you already know, claims need to be scrutinized. I mean, it takes even the Pope months or years of investigation until he confirms a miracle.

Now, what are the odds of that? Very slim, to say the least. I think it's enough evidence that God exists, and that Christ is who He says He is.
​

Provided a lot of premises (that you would never even try to verify, and don´t want me to check), it would possibly good evidence.
You, however, want me to accept the claim on a website on face value and be amazed by the number "353".

If you'd go to the website, you'll see references for each one of them.

 

[quatona]

If you'd go to the website, you'll see references for each one of them.

Bible references, eh?
But I´ll humour you: Let´s take a quick look at the first one.
Let´s gratuitiously assume that Jesus was born of a virgin [which, of course, is unsubstantiated, unless you believe the bible to be a historically correct book, anyway (in which case I would be totally curious how the bible writers confirmed Mary´s virginity )].

Now, how exactly does

"And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
(Genesis 3:15, which according to your website, is the prophecy fulfilled by the alleged virgin birth)

predict Jesus to be born of a virgin?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Bible references, eh?
But I´ll humour you: Let´s take a quick look at the first one.
Let´s gratuitiously assume that Jesus was born of a virgin [which, of course, is unsubstantiated, unless you believe the bible to be a historically correct book, anyway (in which case I would be totally curious how the bible writers confirmed Mary´s virginity )].

Now, how exactly does

"And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
(Genesis 3:15, which according to your website, is the prophecy fulfilled by the alleged virgin birth)

predict Jesus to be born of a virgin?

pretty sure that was the bible explanation for why "snakes are bad"

 

[Aldebaran]

Bible references, eh?
But I´ll humour you: Let´s take a quick look at the first one.
Let´s gratuitiously assume that Jesus was born of a virgin [which, of course, is unsubstantiated, unless you believe the bible to be a historically correct book, anyway (in which case I would be totally curious how the bible writers confirmed Mary´s virginity )].

Now, how exactly does

"And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
(Genesis 3:15, which according to your website, is the prophecy fulfilled by the alleged virgin birth)

predict Jesus to be born of a virgin?

You apparently forgot to look at the right side of the screen where it tells you the verses that indicate the verses on the left side were fulfilled.

 

[JGG]

Does this mean we've given up on the problem of omnipotence in the Bible?