The Problem of Omnipotence?

[Tree of Life]

I would say that the problem of omnipotence isn't omnipotence itself, but that the God of the Bible clearly isn't omnipotent.

How do you figure?

 

[Aldebaran]

Does this mean we've given up on the problem of omnipotence in the Bible?

I guess so. It's not a problem. Problem solved!

 

[JGG]

How do you figure?

Have you ever explained how God "must" "cannot" "has/had to" "can/could only" or "wants"? These explain how God is limited by something and cannot be omnipotent.

Why is it that God cannot create humans that follow His every command perfectly without sin, and still love him freely? For an omnipotent being, creator of the universe, and God of love itself, it seems odd that this particular creation is beyond His ability.

 

[Aldebaran]

Have you ever explained how God "must" "cannot" "has/had to" "can/could only" or "wants"? These explain how God is limited by something and cannot be omnipotent.

Why is it that God cannot create humans that follow His every command perfectly without sin, and still love him freely? For an omnipotent being, creator of the universe, and God of love itself, it seems odd that this particular creation is beyond His ability.

You assume it's beyond His ability. Just because someone is unwilling to do something doesn't mean they are unable. God can make his own choices, and he can implement those choices.

 

[JGG]

You assume it's beyond His ability. Just because someone is unwilling to do something doesn't mean they are unable. God can make his own choices, and he can implement those choices.

Yes, I assume that. Why would God choose this? God wants us to all to do as He wishes? He wants us all to love Him? He hates sin and wants it eradicated? God wants all of these things, but does not have them?

Why is the solution to these queries that God is omnipotent but wants to want these things, and not that God simply isn't omnipotent?

 

[Aldebaran]

Yes, I assume that. Why would God choose this? God wants us to all to do as He wishes? He wants us all to love Him? He hates sin and wants it eradicated? God wants all of these things, but does not have them?

Why is the solution to these queries that God is omnipotent but wants to want these things, and not that God simply isn't omnipotent?

God wants us to make the choice as to whether to love or follow Him or not. Are you married yet? If not, would you like to have a wife that has no choice but to love you, or do you want her to make that choice herself? Would her love be more special and meaningful to you if she loved you by choice rather than compulsion?

 

[Davian]

God wants us to make the choice as to whether to love or follow Him or not.

How is belief a choice?

 

[Aldebaran]

How is belief a choice?

Read what I said again. Slowly this time....

God wants us to make the choice as to whether to love or follow Him or not.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Read what I said again. Slowly this time....

God wants us to make the choice as to whether to love or follow Him or not.

I would guess that he meant that belief isn't a choice...

So choosing to follow or love is really only left to those buying into the stories to begin with.

I can't choose to follow or love god anymore than you could choose to follow or love the Tooth Fairy.

 

[JGG]

God wants us to make the choice as to whether to love or follow Him or not.

But God, being all powerful, invented choice, and invented freewill which gave us choice. He didn't have to. If God had not created choice, or freewill, it wouldn't be necessary, or missed. Perhaps you are suggesting that choice is greater than God, and that God is limited by it?

Are you married yet? If not, would you like to have a wife that has no choice but to love you, or do you want her to make that choice herself?

I was married. Loving my wife cost me a lot. It's not that I regret it, but I certainly didn't choose it. At the time, my life would have been much easier to fall in love with someone else. I did not.

I also have a son. If I'm honest, I don't love my son because I choose to. I do not honestly have the choice to not love my son. I just do. Furthermore, I am not God, nor am I omnipotent.

Would her love be more special and meaningful to you if she loved you by choice rather than compulsion?

I loved her by compulsion. Do you think that made it any less meaningful to her? Do you think that if because I did not choose to love my son, or that he didn't choose to love me makes it any less meaningful.

However, God doesn't really give us choice. He uses coercion. If we agree to love Him he rewards us with heaven. If we do not, he punishes us with hell.

Would you say that a woman who is threatened with harm if she doesn't love a man truly loves the man? What about a woman who is promised that her life can only be saved if she loves a man, does she really love him?

If I'm really honest, if there is a God, I seriously doubt he needs, or even wants to be loved.

 

[Davian]

Read what I said again. Slowly this time....

God wants us to make the choice as to whether to love or follow Him or not.

When I have seen this old saw in the past, the implication was that the choice of "not" was equated with disbelief. Is that not the case here? Can you believe in this god of yours and not want to follow?

I don't get it. If I believed in something that was as wonderful as this deity is at times purported to be, why would I not follow?

 

[Tree of Life]

Have you ever explained how God "must" "cannot" "has/had to" "can/could only" or "wants"? These explain how God is limited by something and cannot be omnipotent.

Omnipotent means that God is able to do everything that he wants to do and everything that he says that he can do. Furthermore it means that nothing is too difficult for him.

Why is it that God cannot create humans that follow His every command perfectly without sin, and still love him freely? For an omnipotent being, creator of the universe, and God of love itself, it seems odd that this particular creation is beyond His ability.

God is certainly able to do this. He is creating those beings right now in the church and one day the whole world will be full of those beings.

You may ask: Why didn't God create humans like this from the start? God didn't want to. He wanted his creation to fall into sin and to be redeemed from sin.

 

[JGG]

Omnipotent means that God is able to do everything that he wants to do and everything that he says that he can do. Furthermore it means that nothing is too difficult for him.

So God wanted to flood the world before Noah and his ark?

God is certainly able to do this. He is creating those beings right now in the church and one day the whole world will be full of those beings.

God doesn't want all of the non-believers who have already died or will die before then?

 

[Aldebaran]

When I have seen this old saw in the past, the implication was that the choice of "not" was equated with disbelief. Is that not the case here? Can you believe in this god of yours and not want to follow?

I don't get it. If I believed in something that was as wonderful as this deity is at times purported to be, why would I not follow?

Good question! Ask Satan. He was in God's presence and made that very decision. So it's not impossible.

 

[quatona]

You apparently forgot to look at the right side of the screen where it tells you the verses that indicate the verses on the left side were fulfilled.

No, they don´t indicate that they were fulfilled - they simply claim they were fulfilled, even though the "prophecy" and the reported event don´t match at all.

You know, when A is predicted (without any specification of time, place, anything, at that) and B happens eventually, that´s not a fulfilled prediction.

 

[Tree of Life]

So God wanted to flood the world before Noah and his ark?

That's what the account says.

Genesis 6:12-13
And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. And God said to Noah, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

God doesn't want all of the non-believers who have already died or will die before then?

Could you rephrase the question?

 

[BL2KTN]

Good question! Ask Satan. He was in God's presence and made that very decision. So it's not impossible.

I thought Yahweh couldn't be in the presence of sin... it's the whole convoluted reason for separation of non-believer from Heaven. I swear I can't keep up with all the twists and turns in logic.

 

[stevevw]

Besides, this is not a matter of words, it's not a matter of whether He's "great" it's whether the God expressed in the Bible is an omnipotent God. It's a matter of concept, not expression.

Why is it that God cannot create humans that follow His every command perfectly without sin, and still love him freely? For an omnipotent being, creator of the universe, and God of love itself, it seems odd that this particular creation is beyond His ability.

I dont think its beyond His ability. there is a difference between being able to do something and then choosing not to do that for whatever reason. We cant say and know that reason because we are not God. You are reasoning with our limited level of understanding as to why we are the way we are. I can only try to understand using my human ability and trying to understand God from His written word. As a Christian I can also get some insight for God from the holy spirit. Christ told us that the Holy spirit would come and act as a go between for us and God. The Holy Spirit can reveal to us some of the hidden secrets of God and also help us to know God better.

If God made us to always follow His every command wouldn't that be like a robot. If we never sinned in the sense that we had something inside us that prevented us from being allowed to do wrong that is beyond our ability then we are being pre programed to only act on one side of things more than the other. The choice is sort of taken away a bit and not equal. We would be able to be put in a situation where we would feel all the power of sin and its temptations and then have equal chance of being good or evil. I think this is the only way we can truly be a complete person by being able to at least have the potential and opportunity to do both. But God di give us an ability to overcome the power of sin. That was by accepting Christ and being born again. We are transformed into a new person and live in the spirit of God. We crucify our fleshly natures and are risen in the spirit of God. But we dont get rid of our evil nature we just tip the balance more in favor of Gods nature by being filled with the spirit of God.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Does this mean we've given up on the problem of omnipotence in the Bible?

I personally don't think the deity in the bible really is omnipotent, there are a lot of verses which don't make sense in the context of an all knowing perspective.

 

[Tree of Life]

I personally don't think the deity in the bible really is omnipotent, there are a lot of verses which don't make sense in the context of an all knowing perspective.

Are you talking about omniscience (knowledge of everything)?