The Problem of Omnipotence?

[JGG]

What do you mean. No one has said we know all about God. How can we if we cannot even be in the same realm as Him. We may know something of Him be what we see of Him in our realm but thats about it.

Really? What else don't Christians know about God?

How do you know as you dont even know the Holy Spirit or are willing to know. To a Christian this is one of the greatest ways we can know God.

What I know is that two people can claim to be in communication with God, and still get conflicting messages. That's an incredibly flawed method of communication for an omnipotent being. If God wanted all of us to receive the exact same message with no confusion, shouldn't God be able to do that? The only options are: God doesn't want that, or God is not able.

Yes but maybe for our existence we have to be the way we are for it to be real and have substance.

Why would it have to be this way? What limits God's options. God could have given our existence reality and substance any way He chooses, especially without sin, which He hates, right?

If God changed it then we would not be the same and an element would go missing. But it is also a state we are in now because of the fall of man. When mankind fell then it allowed sin into our world.

Why was God unable to create a system that sin was not able to get into? If a programmer creates a program that crashes because a variable doesn't do what the programmer intended, it is not the fault of the variable, or even the user using the program. It is the fault of the programmer for creating a flawed design where the variable can crash the system. Again, either God allowed sin into our world because He wanted it here, or God is limited.

When Gods kingdom comes there will be no pain and suffering.

Then why didn't God just create His kingdom from the get-go? Unless, of course, God wants us to suffer, or is unable to stop suffering.

Yes but God created us to have fellowship. To have a relationship with Him. We cant do that if we are not creatures that are independent and can choose.

Why not? God cannot create creatures that He can have fellowship without independence and choice?

This is what makes us unique and when we have a relationship with another we know that this is important. We cant force others to love us and we know that the only real way to form a healthy relationship is to allow each other to be free to choose and have their own independance.

No. We can't. We're not omnipotent. Are you saying God cannot force others to love Him either? Why not? Is independence the only way to a healthy relationship with God? Are you saying God is limited in the ways He can have a healthy relationship?

When they come to us freely choosing then this is the only way of true love. This is why we were created to have fellowship with God in a loving relationship. Not to be puppets or someone who He could order around with a list of dos and donts.

Firstly, that's us, not God. Supposedly God is omnipotent. He could have created us as puppets that still give true love. He could have created us with independence, but without the ability to sin. How is God limited in His options here if He is indeed omnipotent?

Secondly, does God not order us around with a list of 10 dos and don'ts?

If there was no hate then there can be no love. We can only know about being good because there is bad.

This is confusing. If God is love, then how can He exist without hate? If God is good, how can He exist without bad? Are you suggesting that if God alone existed, God wouldn't exist?

Because that is just who we are.

Well it's never that's just who we are. It's how an omnipotent God chose to create us. Why would he specifically create us to sin, when He hates sin, and he is able to create us without the ability to sin? He could have created us any way He wanted. So, there are only two options: Either God wants us to sin, or God was limited in the ways He could create us.

I dont know all the secrets of God and why things are the way they are. I can only try to figure out some aspects according to Gods word. At present we know sin and it came into the world. That is a fact and we see that with the way people act. God did not make people act this way as they have their own free wills and are independent creatures.

But God did make people act this way. God created us specifically with the ability to sin. In fact, He created us with a sinful nature. Again, either He created us this way because He wants us to sin, or He created us this way because He didn't have a better option.

God loved us that He sent His Son to save us from the power of this sin so we do have a way out. But this is just what the state of affairs are at the moment. Maybe it has to be this way because its the only way it can be to allow us to be truly free and have the same dimension and substance to our existence. I dont know the secret ingredients to life and what makes it work or not. But manking can choose not to sin. We dont have to act like horrible people. So we do have an ability to not sin and its totally up to us.

Not at all. If this is the state of affairs, then this is the way God wants it. Otherwise He is not omnipotent. There is no reason it has to be this way if God is omnipotent. God's options for how it could be are unlimited. Mankind cannot choose not to sin. If anything, anything at all, is "totally up to us" then God doesn't have power there. Thus, God is not omnipotent. Either God cannot stop us from sinning, and God is not omnipotent. Or God can stop us from sinning, but doesn't want to.

No its not proof because everything you just said was based on what you think.

It's based on the claims Christianity makes. It's based on the claims you've made. It should be clear that I don't think any of this.

You dont know what God was going to do or not do.

I did not make claims of what God was going to do or not do. I merely pointed out what God must have done if God is omnipotent...which is everything.

Otherwise you would be God. We just dont know and like I said maybe this is just the way it is to make us who we are with the freedom and substance we have. Its like when people blame God for an earthquake or hurricane. These are the results of weather patters and the movement of pressure from the earths plates. But we may have contributed to it with our behavior. When a drunk kills a person by running them down in a car it is not Gods fault. We have a choice to not get drunk and drive and do what we do. Thats just the way it is at the moment. Gos is not going to reach down and stop the car from crashing. Otherwise its like the butterfly effect and then everything has to be affected and influenced and we may as well not even exist.

I'm sorry, what? What's the problem with everything being affected and influenced? If God wants to save someone, and that requires changing everything in an instant, can God not do that? If someone dies a tragic, horrible death, is it not because God wants them to? If a child suffers, is it not because God wants them to? If it isn't, then how is it that an omnipotent God does not stop it?

Well no because two people can choose to do two different things in the same situation.

Firstly, so? Maybe God wants them to choose two different things. Secondly, No two people have ever been in exactly the same situation.

He doesn't want any evil. Satan stepped in and caused a lot of this. So there is a battle between good and evil. In the end God will defeat Satan for good.

Is God unable to defeat Satan now? Why does God have to wait until "the end"? Why was Satan able to cause "this" if omnipotent God did not want Him to? If God doesn't want evil, what's stopping Him from eradicating it yesterday? What's the limitation? How did evil even begin to exist if God did not want it to?

We are complete people. We can choose to sin or not to sin. But that choice is through choosing Jesus and having the power to overcome sin. Jesus defeated sins grip over us by being crucified and rising again from death. The physical death is the end result of sin that entered our world. So Jesus can overcome this and so can we by trusting in Him.

That seems needlessly complicated for a being that could just eradicate sin by just eradicating it. Or can God not do that?

But God di give us an ability to overcome the power of sin.

Again, why not just eradicate sin?

God dint give us the ability to sin. He made us free agents able to choose.

Of course God gave us the ability to sin. Again, He's omnipotent. Anything we are able to do, we are able to do because God gave us the ability...including sin. However, if you're saying we choose sin, then God is unable to stop us. If that's the case God is not omnipotent.

God loved us so much and wanted us to have a way to Him that He gave His only Son as a sacrifice for sin so that we could be redeemed and saved.

Again, why? Seems overly complicated for a being that could just eradicate sin, and have all of His children be with Him. Unless God is unable to eradicate sin.

When mankind fell sin entered the world. This gave us a sinful nature. This is also called the flesh which is our physical side of us.

You are suggesting that God was unaware that this would happen, that God was unable to stop it, and that God is still unable to completely reverse it?

So there are two natures we all can have and its a battle between them. We have a free choice to decide which way we want to go. By choosing Jesus we are actually restoring the good nature that we are meant to have which is what God wants us to be so that we can have fellowship with him. But He is not going to force us like some robot choose Him.

Why not? By not doing that, the vast majority of these creations that God supposedly loves will be lost, many will suffer horribly...and He could save every single person who lives, has ever lived, or could ever live, all right this instant if He wanted to. But, He doesn't. Either God doesn't want those people at all, or God is unable to save them. Which is it?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Psalm 115:3 Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.

To Your Name Give Glory … 2 Why should the nations say, "Where, now, is their God?" 3 But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases. 4 Their idols are ...biblehub.com/psalms/115-3.htm

Psalm 135:6 The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the ...

Yahweh does whatever He pleases in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all the depths. ... Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him. Daniel 4:35

(from a k9 safe search of the internet web all knowing resources in the 'cloud')

if, as is, Yhvh knows everything and is able to save who He wants to,
then,
it is a good idea for anyone who wants to be saved (healed, redeemed, in Yeshua),
to do what Yhvh says.
no man is able to save, heal redeem or help any other man
unless Yhvh permits it and grants it from heaven,
so
don't seek nor trust nor hope in man (btw, Yhvh says He Himself curses anyone who trusts in a man/flesh/mankind/science/specialists/etc etc etc worldly)

IF you want to be blessed or saved or healed or redeemed.

 

[Davian]

Satan decided on his own to leave Heaven.

How could anything trouble an omnipotent deity other than another omnipotent deity?

 

[PsychoSarah]

3. Claim freedom from fear of said god.

4. Claim love for creation of said god.

(you make it sound like we have no soul, when that is the very thing we are told we are saving)

Actually, you can be an atheist and still believe in souls, ghost, an afterlife, etc. And I assure you, fearing complete and utter nonexistence is a lot worse than any fear I could have of some punishing afterlife

 

[PsychoSarah]

How could anything trouble an omnipotent deity other than another omnipotent deity?

Sometimes I wonder if satan is just the representation of god's doubts about humanity in the bible. Put it in the context of the Job story and it kinda fits, otherwise why would god allow satan to influence its own actions (remember, god facilitates the suffering experienced by Job, satan only "converses" with god). In the following bible verses, I replace the name satan with DOUBT.

"Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary, DOUBT, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour."

"The God of peace will soon crush DOUBT under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you."

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist DOUBT, and it will flee from you."

Directly from the Job events: "The Lord said to DOUBT, “From where have you come?” DOUBT answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” (sounds a lot like to me satan, or DOUBT as I have put it, came literally as a result of travels, rather than actually travelling itself. Doubt is often a result of certain experiences shaking one's world view)

I would be lying if I said every verse fit this idea perfectly, but I cannot think of a more challenging adversary to an omnipotent deity than its own feelings of DOUBT.

 

[Aldebaran]

Sometimes I wonder if satan is just the representation of god's doubts about humanity in the bible. Put it in the context of the Job story and it kinda fits, otherwise why would god allow satan to influence its own actions (remember, god facilitates the suffering experienced by Job, satan only "converses" with god). In the following bible verses, I replace the name satan with DOUBT.

"Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary, DOUBT, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour."

"The God of peace will soon crush DOUBT under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you."

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist DOUBT, and it will flee from you."

Directly from the Job events: "The Lord said to DOUBT, “From where have you come?” DOUBT answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” (sounds a lot like to me satan, or DOUBT as I have put it, came literally as a result of travels, rather than actually travelling itself. Doubt is often a result of certain experiences shaking one's world view)

I would be lying if I said every verse fit this idea perfectly, but I cannot think of a more challenging adversary to an omnipotent deity than its own feelings of DOUBT.

You can replace it with pretty much any other word Satan represents and it will fit just as well. Evil, envy, strife, etc.

 

[PsychoSarah]

You can replace it with pretty much any other word Satan represents and it will fit just as well. Evil, envy, strife, etc.

I don't know, evil and envy are thrown around in the bible completely independent of satan on multiple occasions, envy even being openly a trait god has. And a deity such as the god of the bible really wouldn't experience much in the way of strife that wasn't internal, would it?

I make the connection of satan with doubt specifically because of how well it seems to work. God defeats its doubts, and yet they seem to return again and again. An omniscient and omnipotent deity could still feel doubt without either of those traits being compromised, as well as remaining benevolent as well. It also makes god's struggle against "satan" more analogous to the struggles humans experience.

It also makes the existence of the tree of knowledge in Genesis logical; despite the apparent perfection of creation, god still doubted its own creation and decided to test it. Angry at its doubts being realized, god punished the creation it once thought perfect (very similar to the "devil's" fall, don't you think?). Likewise, god in doubting itself could have spread that insecurity to the angels, who are always around god and could have picked up on that turmoil. Their faith in their creator compromised, causing the events that made them fall into hell, for how else would angels be convinced to go against an omnipotent being unless said being showed signs of potentially being flawed? Obviously these two things not necessarily happening in that order. This is just why I chose doubt out of many other possibilities.

 

[Aldebaran]

I don't know, evil and envy are thrown around in the bible completely independent of satan on multiple occasions, envy even being openly a trait god has. And a deity such as the god of the bible really wouldn't experience much in the way of strife that wasn't internal, would it?

I make the connection of satan with doubt specifically because of how well it seems to work. God defeats its doubts, and yet they seem to return again and again. An omniscient and omnipotent deity could still feel doubt without either of those traits being compromised, as well as remaining benevolent as well. It also makes god's struggle against "satan" more analogous to the struggles humans experience.

It also makes the existence of the tree of knowledge in Genesis logical; despite the apparent perfection of creation, god still doubted its own creation and decided to test it. Angry at its doubts being realized, god punished the creation it once thought perfect (very similar to the "devil's" fall, don't you think?). Likewise, god in doubting itself could have spread that insecurity to the angels, who are always around god and could have picked up on that turmoil. Their faith in their creator compromised, causing the events that made them fall into hell, for how else would angels be convinced to go against an omnipotent being unless said being showed signs of potentially being flawed? Obviously these two things not necessarily happening in that order. This is just why I chose doubt out of many other possibilities.

Instead of being a way to explain things written in the bible, this actually rewrites what is already there, replacing it with completely different events.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Instead of being a way to explain things written in the bible, this actually rewrites what is already there, replacing it with completely different events.

I wouldn't exactly be the first person to do that, nor would these changes be quite as extreme. But, there are undeniable plot holes in the bible, and viewing satan as the embodiment of god's own doubts fills quite a few of them, although I am sure it also opens some that weren't there before. Just something to consider is all. Personally, I think the less literally one takes the bible, the more impressive it gets.

 

[Davian]

You can replace it with pretty much any other word Satan represents and it will fit just as well. Evil, envy, strife, etc.

How could anything trouble an omnipotent deity other than another omnipotent deity?

 

[PsychoSarah]

How could anything trouble an omnipotent deity other than another omnipotent deity?

It could trouble itself.

 

[Smidlee]

Sometimes I wonder if satan is just the representation of [Pride] about humanity in the bible. Put it in the context of the Job story and it kinda fits, otherwise why would god allow satan to influence its own actions (remember, god facilitates the suffering experienced by Job, satan only "converses" with god). In the following bible verses, I replace the name satan with [PRIDE].

"Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary, [PRIDE], prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour."

"The God of peace will soon crush [PRIDE] under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you."

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist [PRIDE], and it will flee from you."

Directly from the Job events: "The Lord said to [PRIDE], “From where have you come?” [PRIDE] answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” (sounds a lot like to me satan, or [PRIDE] as I have put it, came literally as a result of travels, rather than actually travelling itself. Doubt is often a result of certain experiences shaking one's world view)
[ Proverbs 16:18 "Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before the fall." ]

I would be lying if I said every verse fit this idea perfectly, but I cannot think of a more challenging adversary to an omnipotent deity than its own feelings of DOUBT.

I replace DOUBT with [PRIDE] since pride would be a much better fit.
For example :
Luke 22:3 "Then enter PRIDE into Judas ...."
Judas wasn't driven by doubt but by pride.
Also Jesus did not rebuke John the Baptist when he had doubts.
God didn't rebuke Gideon for his doubts either.

 

[Aldebaran]

I replace DOUBT with [PRIDE] since pride would be a much better fit.
For example :
Luke 22:3 "Then enter PRIDE into Judas ...."
Judas wasn't driven by doubt but by pride.
Also Jesus did not rebuke John the Baptist when he had doubts.
God didn't rebuke Gideon for his doubts either.

Just another example of how Satan is the embodiment of pride, envy, strife, doubt, etc. All those things will be defeated, crushed ,etc. in the end.

 

[Davian]

Just another example of how Satan is the embodiment of pride, envy, strife, doubt, etc. All those things will be defeated, crushed ,etc. in the end.

Why is this taking so long? Omnipotence, and all that.

How could anything trouble an omnipotent deity other than another omnipotent deity?

 

[Aldebaran]

Why is this taking so long? Omnipotence, and all that.

How could anything trouble an omnipotent deity other than another omnipotent deity?

What do you mean by "troubled", and why do assume God is "troubled" by Satan?

 

[Davian]

What do you mean by "troubled", and why do assume God is "troubled" by Satan?

Now I see why you are having trouble with the question. If you are looking for a refresher in Christian theology, you should try the Exploring Christianity forum.

 

[Tree of Life]

So God created a corrupt earth? Why did God wish to make a corrupt earth or an earth that could be corrupted?

God created an earth that could be corrupted and that did become corrupted. He did this so that he could reveal himself to be a redeemer and a restorer of corruption. Also he is revealed as a just judge of sin. Without corruption entering into the story these things could not clearly be made known.

If God is omnipotent than nothing He creates should ever fail, and nothing He creates could ever displease him, unless He wants it to fail. Why does God want humans to fail? Why did God want a corrupted earth? Why does God then act displeased, when is creation fails?

Unless of course, God is not omnipotent.

All good questions. Ultimately, God never fails. Proverbs 16:4 says that God has created everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of destruction. The Bible itself says that God creates calamity and wickedness and has a purpose even for those things.

On one level, wickedness is displeasing to God. God hates sin and is a just judge of injustice.

But on another level God is in control over wickedness and wrote it into the story in order to use it for a greater good. Because of the existence of sin God can reveal himself as a God who has mercy on sinners and a God who judges sin and restores justice. Even wickedness has a purpose in God's plan.

So even though human beings fails at many points, God never fails and his creation never fails. His purposes are always being accomplished in the story that He's telling.

 

[JGG]

God created an earth that could be corrupted and that did become corrupted. He did this so that he could reveal himself to be a redeemer and a restorer of corruption. Also he is revealed as a just judge of sin. Without corruption entering into the story these things could not clearly be made known.



All good questions. Ultimately, God never fails. Proverbs 16:4 says that God has created everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of destruction. The Bible itself says that God creates calamity and wickedness and has a purpose even for those things.

On one level, wickedness is displeasing to God. God hates sin and is a just judge of injustice.

But on another level God is in control over wickedness and wrote it into the story in order to use it for a greater good. Because of the existence of sin God can reveal himself as a God who has mercy on sinners and a God who judges sin and restores justice. Even wickedness has a purpose in God's plan.

So even though human beings fails at many points, God never fails and his creation never fails. His purposes are always being accomplished in the story that He's telling.

Firstly, So God, with his omnipotence, created evil, which He apparently hates, to show us that He could overcome it? God created humankind, caused them unnecessary suffering, will send the vast majority of them to hell for an eternity of torment...to show off?

God couldn't come up with a more efficient way to do this without all of the evil, and suffering, and hell and stuff?

Secondly, we are His creation. If we fail, then God failed. I will again go to the computer programmer analogy. If one of the variables in a program does something unexpected, and causes the program to fail, it's ultimately the programmer who failed. An actual programmer is limited by software, knowledge and technological advancement. An omnipotent being is not.

 

[Tree of Life]

Firstly, So God, with his omnipotence, created evil, which He apparently hates, to show us that He could overcome it? God created humankind, caused them unnecessary suffering, will send the vast majority of them to hell for an eternity of torment...to show off?

Yes. God created evil to show us that he both judges and has mercy and is able to overcome it. The suffering that humanity faces is not unnecessary, but necessary for the glory of God and for our ultimate good. Keep in mind too that God is not aloof from the suffering that He permits. He himself is subject to the most awful suffering imaginable in Christ on the cross. Our God suffers with us.

Secondly, we are His creation. If we fail, then God failed. I will again go to the computer programmer analogy. If one of the variables in a program does something unexpected, and causes the program to fail, it's ultimately the programmer who failed. An actual programmer is limited by software, knowledge and technological advancement. An omnipotent being is not.

No variable in God's program ever does anything unexpected. All that comes to pass has been ordained by the Father.

 

[Aldebaran]

Now I see why you are having trouble with the question. If you are looking for a refresher in Christian theology, you should try the Exploring Christianity forum.

No, I'm having trouble with your wording. I'm also trying to get you to clarify.