The Problem of Omnipotence?

[quatona]

But aren't you putting God into a box by saying he cant do this or that. You maybe thinking along the lines of how we think within our reality and its laws and understandings. We use cause and effect to measure things by which are subject to the world in which we live. But for all we know all these influences are different and God can act outside this. If He created everything then He should be able act in many different ways outside what we could possibly even comprehend.

Which, of course, would make God pretty much irrelevant for any given idea, topic or concept.
Do you really want to go down that road?
If you posit that God is incomprehensible, all your other claims about It are not credible.

 

[stevevw]

Which, of course, would make God pretty much irrelevant for any given idea, topic or concept.
Do you really want to go down that road?
If you posit that God is incomprehensible, all your other claims about It are not credible.

Apart from what I could find out from the bible that describes what God is like. But for me or anyone else to try and put descriptions on him based on our limited understanding will always be restricted to how we see things and we know at least God is beyond our reality. And you are right our attempts to describe God will be less credible. Some may say that they can gain some insight into God through the holy spirit. The bible says the holy spirit intercedes between us and God. So the Holy spirit can give us some of the insights into God and the invisible qualities He has. I was talking more about a worldly view of what someone would try and describe God. This is limited to our reality. The Holy spirit comes from God and is beyond our reality which is different. But there is nothing stopping someone from trying to describe what they think God is. I'm just saying that we have to remember that there is more to it that what we may be able to understand.

 

[quatona]

Apart from what I could find out from the bible that describes what God is like.[/quote}
Who wrote the bible?

But for me or anyone else to try and put descriptions on him based on our limited understanding will always be restricted to how we see things and we know at least God is beyond our reality. And you are right our attempts to describe God will be less credible.

Let´s keep that in mind.

Some may say that they can gain some insight into God through the holy spirit. The bible says the holy spirit intercedes between us and God. So the Holy spirit can give us some of the insights into God and the invisible qualities He has.

Yeah, that´s what the human bible-writers in their limited understanding of an incomprehensible subject wrote.

I was talking more about a worldly view of what someone would try and describe God. This is limited to our reality.

And some have a not-worldly view?

The Holy spirit comes from God and is beyond our reality which is different.

Claim.

But there is nothing stopping someone from trying to describe what they think God is.

Of course not.

I'm just saying that we have to remember that there is more to it that what we may be able to understand.

Yeah, but not necessarily what you feel there should be.

 

[Kylie]

Well your the one thats saying how God acts. I dont think we can completely say that he will do this and that.

And so are the people who claim that God can't do things that are logically impossible. Except they are imposing limits on God, I am not.

If you dont believe in God then you have to start asking your self why do humans have this ability to be so evil. They can knowingly act so vicious and calculated and depraved that it makes you sick. To me its more than what animals can do and its beyond an instinct thing. So if we are just evolved chemicals then there's more to it than that. I bet evolution never saw this coming. I dont think its something that evolution can produce. Its beyond chemical reactions.

I dont know why there is evil or for humans to act so bad towards each other but I do think there is more to it than biology and our mental capacity. There is a conscience and we know what is right and what is wrong. When someone defies this they go down a path that can end up with all sorts of horrible things happening. Its like a person who thinks that they can do whatever and know one can tell them what to do. They dont see where their attitude and behavior may lead to. All they are thinking about is themselves. But I am sure that there are times along the way where they knew that it was wrong and that it would end up causing some trouble. But the more they denied facing the truth the harder it gets to stop and then it begins to be self propelling and out of control.

Argument from incredulity. Logical fallacy.

 

[Kylie]

yes he does. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last-john 15:16. the glory of god is man fully alive

Care to explain how this verse applies to what I said?

 

[Kylie]

You have to believe as a matter of your own will.

Why?

Do you want to believe in God?

I want to believe in the truth.

Some of us have barriers in our lives that make it difficult, but those can be overcome--sometimes we just need a little help.

And for me, the barrier is a lack of convincing evidence.

Give me the evidence and I will believe in anything.

 

[stevevw]

Sorry break down in tech repeat post. Something is wrong with my poster.

 

[stevevw]

sorry repeat post

 

[stevevw]

quatona

Who wrote the bible?

Well this will take us into a new topic which will be involved as well. But are you now disputing who wrote the bible or that the bible is not true. Some of the authors are not known but ones like Paul are. He wrote a lot about God and Jesus and actually claims to have visited heaven. So he is in a good position to tell of what God was like. The old testament men like Abraham and Moses also had contact with God. King David describes God a lot in some of the psalms. So it all depends on whether you believe them or not. But certainly they are describing what they knew of God from their experiences. What they wrote will either be through personal experience that some will say is in their imagination. But how are we to know. All I can do is have faith that this is the case.

Let´s keep that in mind.

Well we should keep this is mind but we should also keep in mind that because we may not be able to describe God from our reality doesn't mean that we can get to know him in some ways.

Yeah, that´s what the human bible-writers in their limited understanding of an incomprehensible subject wrote.

Well they weren't limited bible writers like I was describing people in today's world are like. They had either had contact with God like Moses and Abraham or with Jesus who was God in the flesh. The holy spirit was also at work before Jesus ascended into heaven when He said that He would send the Holy Spirit. We can know that same holy Spirit and get to know God ourselves. That is what Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would come and tell us of Gods secrets.

And some have a not-worldly view?

Well yes through the Holy Spirit. The bible is full of verses that talk about the difference between how this world see things and how the spirit of God can open our eyes to the invisible qualities of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
John 3:3
Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."
John 3:6-7
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Claim.

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
John 14:15-17
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
1 Corinthians 2:13
And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

Yeah, but not necessarily what you feel there should be.

It is not what I feel. It is the spirit of God who testifies and speaks these things. It is beyond a persons feelings and imagination. There are ways in which we can know the difference and it is clear as though the truth stands before us. __________________

"Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing, and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there."​

 

[Colter]

It's an invasion of the Randbots......bleep....bleep... Primacy of existence, existence exists for the purpose of nothing....bleep.....bleep.....life is illogical......bleep....bleep....

​

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Christians claim that God is omnipotent. Being the Lord of creation and the author of the story of creation his power is without limit. He can do anything that he wants to do. Nothing is too difficult for him.

Some have suggested that omnipotence is an incoherent concept. If this is true then the Christian God cannot exist because the Christian God is incoherent. "The problem of omnipotence" is often expressed with a question like this:

If God is all powerful, is he able to create a rock so big that even he can't lift it?

This question is supposed to show that omnipotence is logically incoherent. If God can create such a rock then his power is limited - he cannot lift the rock he created. But if God can't create such a rock then his power is still limited - he cannot create this hypothetical rock. So the idea of an omnipotent being is logically incoherent - it's not a concept at all. It only seems like a concept.

The purpose of this thread is to say that the above question fails to challenge omnipotence. Here's why it fails:

The question could be reformulated in the following way:

If God is all powerful, is he able to create [a rock that an all powerful being cannot lift]?

Let's look at what the skeptic is asking God to create. I've put in in brackets to make it stand apart. [A rock that an all powerful being cannot lift]. God is being asked to create something logically incoherent. A rock that an all powerful being cannot lift isn't really a concept, it only seems like a concept.

What's really being asked here is this: is God powerful enough to break the laws of logic? Can he create something logically incoherent. There are two ways to answer this question.

We can say "no". God cannot break the laws of logic. He cannot create something logically incoherent. I don't think that this creates a problem for omnipotence.

But maybe you do. Fine. Then we can say "yes". God can break the laws of logic by creating a rock that an omnipotent being cannot lift. But if God can break the laws of logic in this instance then he can break the laws of logic in other instances as well.

If he can create a rock that an all powerful being cannot lift then he can break logic one more time by also lifting that rock that an all powerful being cannot lift.

This question has therefore failed to show a logical problem with omnipotence.

Why don't you just consider our reality, that is, a Universe complete with unchanging laws of physics that came into being out of nothing / over 150 life enabling constants ..some to within a 120th decimal point max. leeway for our Universe, Solar System, Earth to be perfect for life that came out of nothing / and many examples of non material entities such as our consciousness , logic, reason, love, abstract thinking, et al..... and tell us why this WOULDNT require an almighty personal theistic Creator for it.

Since youre an atheist, tell us how naturalism and materialism accomplished it coming from nothing, then how evolution evolved our 8 primary unchanging Laws of Physics and the other Anthropics which all work in unison with one another to accomplish a very specific purpose : Humans being able to live on a Planet ?

Can you do that ? If not, please stop trying to defame the only thing that makes sense and has significant scientific confirmations showing distinct intelligent design and engineering to mind boggling proportions.

 

[Aldebaran]

Why?



I want to believe in the truth.



And for me, the barrier is a lack of convincing evidence.

Give me the evidence and I will believe in anything.

I'm afraid the evidence you want isn't the kind you have a mind that is open to. You have to think beyond the physical.

 

[JGG]

I would say that the problem of omnipotence isn't omnipotence itself, but that the God of the Bible clearly isn't omnipotent.

 

[Aldebaran]

I would say that the problem of omnipotence isn't omnipotence itself, but that the God of the Bible clearly isn't omnipotent.

You say "clearly" without providing even a hint of clear evidence.

 

[JGG]

You say "clearly" without providing even a hint of clear evidence.

Have you ever explained how God "must" "cannot" "has/had to" "can/could only" or "wants"? These explain how God is limited by something and cannot be omnipotent.

 

[stevevw]

Have you ever explained how God "must" "cannot" "has/had to" "can/could only" or "wants"? These explain how God is limited by something and cannot be omnipotent.

thats only because we cant help it as humans. We keep reverting to using these expressions because we have no words to explain Gods greatness. We can only attempt to and hence we can only explain it with the limited words and knowledge we have.

 

[JGG]

thats only because we cant help it as humans. We keep reverting to using these expressions because we have no words to explain Gods greatness. We can only attempt to and hence we can only explain it with the limited words and knowledge we have.

Besides, this is not a matter of words, it's not a matter of whether He's "great" it's whether the God expressed in the Bible is an omnipotent God. It's a matter of concept, not expression.

Why is it that God cannot create humans that follow His every command perfectly without sin, and still love him freely? For an omnipotent being, creator of the universe, and God of love itself, it seems odd that this particular creation is beyond His ability.

 

[Kylie]

I'm afraid the evidence you want isn't the kind you have a mind that is open to. You have to think beyond the physical.

And what evidence do you have that there is anything metaphysical?

I will say again: I will believe ANYTHING, provided that you give me evidence for it. As long as your evidence withstands investigation, I will accept it and adjust my worldview.

Have you nothing that can withstand investigation?

 

[Aldebaran]

And what evidence do you have that there is anything metaphysical?

I will say again: I will believe ANYTHING, provided that you give me evidence for it. As long as your evidence withstands investigation, I will accept it and adjust my worldview.

Have you nothing that can withstand investigation?

Like I just said, the evidence that can be provided to you is not the kind you would be willing to accept. Would you accept a person's experiences? Would you even accept the amazing complexity of the universe, or even of living beings? What about unexplained miracles? What about fulfilled prophecy? Would you accept any of this as evidence?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Like I just said, the evidence that can be provided to you is not the kind you would be willing to accept. Would you accept a person's experiences? Would you even accept the amazing complexity of the universe, or even of living beings? What about unexplained miracles? What about fulfilled prophecy? Would you accept any of this as evidence?

You don't accept those when they apply to other religions, so...