The Problem of Omnipotence?

[TheyCallMeDavid]

I would say that the problem of omnipotence isn't omnipotence itself, but that the God of the Bible clearly isn't omnipotent.

Rediculous and based on misconceptions of Gods character . Omnipotence is a woefully lacking term to describe an infinite personal creative Being who willed then accomplished bringing into existence out of nothing a Universe having personal, intelligence, and information Effects .... all from nothing ; without even going into the mind boggling finetuning of Scientific Laws and Life enabling Constants and their required degree of precision . There aren't words or terms adequate enough to describe the awesomeness and majesty of God our Creator considering he is beyond the whole Universe yet is interested in our daily lives ; its too bad there are vile and degrading terms though that seek to defame him by wanton rebellious and incredibly arrogant People who one day will be unmeasurably regretful.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Rediculous and based on misconceptions of Gods character . Omnipotence is a woefully lacking term to describe an infinite personal creative Being who willed then accomplished bringing into existence out of nothing a Universe having personal, intelligence, and information Effects .... all from nothing ; without even going into the mind boggling finetuning of Scientific Laws and Life enabling Constants and their required degree of precision . There aren't words or terms adequate enough to describe the awesomeness and majesty of God our Creator considering he is beyond the whole Universe yet is interested in our daily lives ; its too bad there are vile and degrading terms though that seek to defame him by wanton rebellious and incredibly arrogant People who one day will be unmeasurably regretful.

Why try to understand or claim you, as a Christian, understand what such a being wants if you present it as being so abstract as to be incomprehensible?

 

[Davian]

Good question! Ask Satan. He was in God's presence and made that very decision. So it's not impossible.

Was not Satan another god?

 

[Colter]

Was not Satan another god?

* Satan was in God the Sons presence, not God the Father. For Satan God the Father was a matter of faith.


* Lucifer and Satan tried to become God of this world but they couldn't. They were basically insane in the end.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Was not Satan another god?

No, actually, satan wouldn't qualify as a deity any more than a regular angel or even perhaps humans.

 

[Aldebaran]

No, actually, satan wouldn't qualify as a deity any more than a regular angel or even perhaps humans.

Correct! Satan was actually originally one of the highest of the angels. He decided that wasn't good enough and wanted to take God's place. Now he's an example of those who want to put themselves in God's place.

 

[Davian]

Was not Satan another god?

* Satan was in God the Sons presence, not God the Father. For Satan God the Father was a matter of faith.


* Lucifer and Satan tried to become God of this world but they couldn't. They were basically insane in the end.

No, actually, satan wouldn't qualify as a deity any more than a regular angel or even perhaps humans.

Correct! Satan was actually originally one of the highest of the angels. He decided that wasn't good enough and wanted to take God's place. Now he's an example of those who want to put themselves in God's place.

That makes zero sense. How could anything trouble an omnipotent deity other than another omnipotent deity?

And, should not this thread be in the Exploring Christianity forum, as we appear to have left philosophy (and, by all appearances, reality) far behind?

 

[JGG]

That's what the account says.

Genesis 6:12-13
And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. And God said to Noah, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

So God created a corrupt earth? Why did God wish to make a corrupt earth or an earth that could be corrupted?

Could you rephrase the question?

If God is omnipotent than nothing He creates should ever fail, and nothing He creates could ever displease him, unless He wants it to fail. Why does God want humans to fail? Why did God want a corrupted earth? Why does God then act displeased, when is creation fails?

Unless of course, God is not omnipotent.

 

[JGG]

I dont think its beyond His ability. there is a difference between being able to do something and then choosing not to do that for whatever reason. We cant say and know that reason because we are not God.

Really? It sure seems as though we know everything else there is to know about God somehow. Why not this?

You are reasoning with our limited level of understanding as to why we are the way we are. I can only try to understand using my human ability and trying to understand God from His written word. As a Christian I can also get some insight for God from the holy spirit. Christ told us that the Holy spirit would come and act as a go between for us and God. The Holy Spirit can reveal to us some of the hidden secrets of God and also help us to know God better.

If I may say so, that seems like a terribly flawed communication design to have been created by an omnipotent God. Doesn't it?

If God made us to always follow His every command wouldn't that be like a robot.

Firstly, no. If we were to create beings that follow our every command, that may be like a robot. However, we are not omnipotent. As you stated our ability is limited. The ability of an omnipotent being is not limited at all. So, why couldn't God create beings that are not robots, that would follow his every command? Why is that beyond His ability?

Secondly, what would be wrong with robots? God hates sin, and robots that follow his every command would never sin. If God is indeed the God of love then it is up to Him what love is. Those robots could love Him in any way He wanted, and sin would never exist.

If we never sinned in the sense that we had something inside us that prevented us from being allowed to do wrong that is beyond our ability then we are being pre programed to only act on one side of things more than the other.

What?

Doesn't God only want us on His side? There are lots of things that are beyond our ability. for instance: fllying, perfect memory, time travel, infinite knowledge and power. Why would God, who I presume you will tell me is not evil, specifically give us the ability to be evil when it is against His wishes

The choice is sort of taken away a bit and not equal.

Again, what?

If God is omnipotent then God would not have taken away a choice. We didn't have choice to begin with. Choice was not something we would have had unless God wanted us to have it. This suggests that choice is an agent separate from God. God gave us choice when choice was not required. Choice didn't exist until God gave it to us. The very fact that we have the ability to choose anything for ourselves, that we can do something to God doesn't want, is proof that God is not omnipotent. We have the power to do what God doesn't want.

Or we don't. Maybe we don't really have freewill, maybe we are doing precisely what God wants us to, even when we think we aren't. Maybe God is omnipotent and every single apparent choice we make is not choice at all.

We would be able to be put in a situation where we would feel all the power of sin and its temptations and then have equal chance of being good or evil.

Again, why? If God hates evil, and loves us...why would He ever give us the chance to be evil? Or more important, why does God want evil people to be evil?

I think this is the only way we can truly be a complete person by being able to at least have the potential and opportunity to do both.

Why did God not create us as complete people? Why take the chance that we would not be complete? I guess the question is, why does God want us to not be complete people?

But God di give us an ability to overcome the power of sin.[/quote]

Why? What does it achieve? Sin only exists because God gives us the ability to be sin? Why does God want us to sin?

That was by accepting Christ and being born again. We are transformed into a new person and live in the spirit of God. We crucify our fleshly natures and are risen in the spirit of God. But we dont get rid of our evil nature we just tip the balance more in favor of Gods nature by being filled with the spirit of God.

I'm sorry, why would God wish us to be created with an evil nature?

 

[Gottservant]

Some have suggested that omnipotence is an incoherent concept. If this is true then the Christian God cannot exist because the Christian God is incoherent. "The problem of omnipotence" is often expressed with a question like this:

If God is all powerful, is he able to create a rock so big that even he can't lift it?

The rock to God is not a what, its a who.

So the answer to your question is that if the rock does not want to lift itself, neither does God (want to lift it).

God's omnipotence therefore remains full of integrity, because it remains a matter of principle, not of preference or bias.

 

[quatona]

Rediculous and based on misconceptions of Gods character . Omnipotence is a woefully lacking term to describe an infinite personal creative Being who willed then accomplished bringing into existence out of nothing a Universe having personal, intelligence, and information Effects .... all from nothing ; without even going into the mind boggling finetuning of Scientific Laws and Life enabling Constants and their required degree of precision . There aren't words or terms adequate enough to describe the awesomeness and majesty of God our Creator considering he is beyond the whole Universe yet is interested in our daily lives ; its too bad there are vile and degrading terms though that seek to defame him by wanton rebellious and incredibly arrogant People who one day will be unmeasurably regretful.

It´s interesting how thoroughly you deconstructed any explanatory power of "God" here.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It´s interesting how thoroughly you deconstructed any explanatory power of "God" here.

It's all part of the two step process, right?

1. Claim god cannot be known/understood.

2. Claim personal relationship with said god.

 

[Gottservant]

It's all part of the two step process, right?

1. Claim god cannot be known/understood.

2. Claim personal relationship with said god.

3. Claim freedom from fear of said god.

4. Claim love for creation of said god.

(you make it sound like we have no soul, when that is the very thing we are told we are saving)

 

[Ana the Ist]

3. Claim freedom from fear of said god.

4. Claim love for creation of said god.

(you make it sound like we have no soul, when that is the very thing we are told we are saving)

I think you're missing the point that numbers 1 and 2 are contradictory.

 

[Gottservant]

you can't know that something is unknown?

ah, you're one of those... you think categorical observations are reducible to belief

 

[Ana the Ist]

you can't know that something is unknown?

ah, you're one of those... you think categorical observations are reducible to belief

You can know that something is unknown....you just can't know the unknowable. Sorry.

 

[stevevw]

Really? It sure seems as though we know everything else there is to know about God somehow. Why not this?

What do you mean. No one has said we know all about God. How can we if we cannot even be in the same realm as Him. We may know something of Him be what we see of Him in our realm but thats about it.

If I may say so, that seems like a terribly flawed communication design to have been created by an omnipotent God. Doesn't it?[/quote]
How do you know as you dont even know the Holy Spirit or are willing to know. To a Christian this is one of the greatest ways we can know God. Its the same Holy Spirit that spoke to the disciples after Jesus left. Its the same one that inspired the scriptures. Its the same of that John had when he wrote revelations and seeing all these prophesies and visions. Its the same Holy spirit that has caused many to die for their beliefs and change their lives completely sometimes giving up everything. Now some who dont know God can say this is delusional and madness but there is much more to it than that. This is a real entity that works in our lives and testifies to us about God and His will for our lives.

Firstly, no. If we were to create beings that follow our every command, that may be like a robot. However, we are not omnipotent. As you stated our ability is limited. The ability of an omnipotent being is not limited at all. So, why couldn't God create beings that are not robots, that would follow his every command? Why is that beyond His ability?

Yes but maybe for our existence we have to be the way we are for it to be real and have substance. If God changed it then we would not be the same and an element would go missing. But it is also a state we are in now because of the fall of man. When mankind fell then it allowed sin into our world. Thats when God said we would know the pain of childbirth and have to toil the ground to grow crops. The ground would not just grow things for us to eat but also grow thorns. We would not only know good but also evil and not just love but hate. We would now know a physical death and everything would grow old and decay. So maybe we did have that state of only knowing goodness and love and now we have to get back to that by being saved. When Gods kingdom comes there will be no pain and suffering.

Secondly, what would be wrong with robots? God hates sin, and robots that follow his every command would never sin. If God is indeed the God of love then it is up to Him what love is. Those robots could love Him in any way He wanted, and sin would never exist.

Yes but God created us to have fellowship. To have a relationship with Him. We cant do that if we are not creatures that are independent and can choose. This is what makes us unique and when we have a relationship with another we know that this is important. We cant force others to love us and we know that the only real way to form a healthy relationship is to allow each other to be free to choose and have their own independance. When they come to us freely choosing then this is the only way of true love. This is why we were created to have fellowship with God in a loving relationship. Not to be puppets or someone who He could order around with a list of dos and donts.

What?

If there was no hate then there can be no love. We can only know about being good because there is bad.

Doesn't God only want us on His side? There are lots of things that are beyond our ability. for instance: fllying, perfect memory, time travel, infinite knowledge and power. Why would God, who I presume you will tell me is not evil, specifically give us the ability to be evil when it is against His wishes

Because that is just who we are. I dont know all the secrets of God and why things are the way they are. I can only try to figure out some aspects according to Gods word. At present we know sin and it came into the world. That is a fact and we see that with the way people act. God did not make people act this way as they have their own free wills and are independent creatures. God loved us that He sent His Son to save us from the power of this sin so we do have a way out. But this is just what the state of affairs are at the moment. Maybe it has to be this way because its the only way it can be to allow us to be truly free and have the same dimension and substance to our existence. I dont know the secret ingredients to life and what makes it work or not. But manking can choose not to sin. We dont have to act like horrible people. So we do have an ability to not sin and its totally up to us.

If God is omnipotent then God would not have taken away a choice. We didn't have choice to begin with. Choice was not something we would have had unless God wanted us to have it. This suggests that choice is an agent separate from God. God gave us choice when choice was not required. Choice didn't exist until God gave it to us. The very fact that we have the ability to choose anything for ourselves, that we can do something to God doesn't want, is proof that God is not omnipotent. We have the power to do what God doesn't want.

No its not proof because everything you just said was based on what you think. You dont know what God was going to do or not do. Or should have done or was thinking at any time. Otherwise you would be God. We just dont know and like I said maybe this is just the way it is to make us who we are with the freedom and substance we have. Its like when people blame God for an earthquake or hurricane. These are the results of weather patters and the movement of pressure from the earths plates. But we may have contributed to it with our behavior. When a drunk kills a person by running them down in a car it is not Gods fault. We have a choice to not get drunk and drive and do what we do. Thats just the way it is at the moment. Gos is not going to reach down and stop the car from crashing. Otherwise its like the butterfly effect and then everything has to be affected and influenced and we may as well not even exist.

Or we don't. Maybe we don't really have freewill, maybe we are doing precisely what God wants us to, even when we think we aren't. Maybe God is omnipotent and every single apparent choice we make is not choice at all.

Well no because two people can choose to do two different things in the same situation.

Again, why? If God hates evil, and loves us...why would He ever give us the chance to be evil? Or more important, why does God want evil people to be evil?

He doesn't want any evil. Satan stepped in and caused a lot of this. So there is a battle between good and evil. In the end God will defeat Satan for good.

Why did God not create us as complete people? Why take the chance that we would not be complete? I guess the question is, why does God want us to not be complete people?

We are complete people. We can choose to sin or not to sin. But that choice is through choosing Jesus and having the power to overcome sin. Jesus defeated sins grip over us by being crucified and rising again from death. The physical death is the end result of sin that entered our world. So Jesus can overcome this and so can we by trusting in Him.

But God di give us an ability to overcome the power of sin.

Why? What does it achieve? Sin only exists because God gives us the ability to be sin? Why does God want us to sin?

God dint give us the ability to sin. He made us free agents able to choose. God loved us so much and wanted us to have a way to Him that He gave His only Son as a sacrifice for sin so that we could be redeemed and saved.

I'm sorry, why would God wish us to be created with an evil nature?

When mankind fell sin entered the world. This gave us a sinful nature. This is also called the flesh which is our physical side of us.
Galatians 5:19 to 20
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

But we can also have a good Godly nature which was in us and can still be made in us through Jesus and being born again. We then take of the things of the spirit of God.
Galatians 5:22
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.…

So there are two natures we all can have and its a battle between them. We have a free choice to decide which way we want to go. By choosing Jesus we are actually restoring the good nature that we are meant to have which is what God wants us to be so that we can have fellowship with him. But He is not going to force us like some robot choose Him.

 

[Gottservant]

You can know that something is unknown....you just can't know the unknowable. Sorry.

you can't know the unknowable

but you can believe it

that is the point I think you missed

(despite your best efforts)

 

[Ana the Ist]

you can't know the unknowable

but you can believe it

that is the point I think you missed

(despite your best efforts)

.....Go back and read the first reply of mine that you replied to. Its about people claiming to know god, not people who believe in him.

So since we agree I'm right, do you want to continue?

 

[Aldebaran]

That makes zero sense. How could anything trouble an omnipotent deity other than another omnipotent deity?

Satan decided on his own to leave Heaven.