The problem of Objective Morality. and why even biblical speaking it is subjective

[durangodawood]

No; I don’t need to get a psychiatric evaluation to make my case, just as everybody agrees on the effects of gravity, 1+1=2 using math, and everything else objective; if morality were objective everybody would agree on the objective moral issues. If you disagree, point to something else objective that cannot be demonstrated as true.

???

Obviously total agreement is not what distinguishes objective facts. I mean just look at evolution. Whether you think its true or false, its a matter of objective reality. But look at all the dispute right here.

 

[Ken-1122]

???

Obviously total agreement is not what distinguishes objective facts. I mean just look at evolution. Whether you think its true or false, its a matter of objective reality. But look at all the dispute right here.

I didn't mean to suggest there will be 100% agreement, there are nut jobs who still claim the Earth is flat! So let me rephrase. If something is objectively true, it can be demonstrated as true. Can you name something that is objectively true that can't be demonstrated as true?

 

[Strathos]

I didn't mean to suggest there will be 100% agreement, there are nut jobs who still claim the Earth is flat! So let me rephrase. If something is objectively true, it can be demonstrated as true. Can you name something that is objectively true that can't be demonstrated as true?

You can't demonstrate the truth of a round earth to a flat earther. They will deny all the evidence.

 

[durangodawood]

I didn't mean to suggest there will be 100% agreement, there are nut jobs who still claim the Earth is flat! So let me rephrase. If something is objectively true, it can be demonstrated as true. Can you name something that is objectively true that can't be demonstrated as true?

I agree, mainly.

Morality is complicated. Along with the elements of morality that are based in objective reality, there's a lot of arbitrary and culturally contingent stuff mixed in.

The important thing to recognize tho, is how much morality really is derived from objectively reality. I think all the enduring fundamentals of morality are objectively based.

 

[durangodawood]

You can't demonstrate the truth of a round earth to a flat earther. They will deny all the evidence.

Demonstration doesnt mean everybody will actually open their eyes to look at it.

 

[Ken-1122]

You can't demonstrate the truth of a round earth to a flat earther. They will deny all the evidence.

Of course I can. I would buy a telescope, take him to the top of the Empire State Building, and challenge him to look across the Atlantic Ocean to see the coast of Africa. If the Earth were flat, he would be able to see across any ocean from a tall building.

 

[Ken-1122]

I agree, mainly.

Morality is complicated. Along with the elements of morality that are based in objective reality, there's a lot of arbitrary and culturally contingent stuff mixed in.

But objectively speaking; something is either right or wrong; culture and contingencies doesn't matter. Culture, and contingencies matter when speaking subjectively.

The important thing to recognize tho, is how much morality really is derived from objectively reality. I think all the enduring fundamentals of morality are objectively based.

What are some of these enduring fundamentals of morality that are objectively based?

 

[durangodawood]

But objectively speaking; something is either right or wrong; culture and contingencies doesn't matter. Culture, and contingencies matter when speaking subjectively.....

Your talking about absolute morality, not objective.

I mean, even Christians who believe that God dictates an absolute morality for us cannot demonstrate that morality for others in an objective sense.

Youre barking up the wrong tree.

What are some of these enduring fundamentals of morality that are objectively based?

Dont steal from members of your tribe.
Dont murder people of your own tribe.

These arent objective in that I can show them to you. But they are based in observation from objective reality. For example: the wise have noticed over time that life is objectively miserable when you live in a tribe where people kill each other out of the blue.... and that such tribe can be objectively observed to fall apart.

 

[Strathos]

Of course I can. I would buy a telescope, take him to the top of the Empire State Building, and challenge him to look across the Atlantic Ocean to see the coast of Africa. If the Earth were flat, he would be able to see across any ocean from a tall building.

You've never met a flat earther, have you? They'll make up an excuse for it. Usually something about it being impossible to see beyond a certain distance due to the thickness of the atmosphere.

 

[Strathos]

Demonstration doesnt mean everybody will actually open their eyes to look at it.

The problem is assuming that everyone will be rational about the evidence presented to them.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I shouldn't think a debate on what is demonstrable should require demonstrating it to unreasonable persons:
Reasonable person - Wikipedia

 

[Ken-1122]

You've never met a flat earther, have you? They'll make up an excuse for it. Usually something about it being impossible to see beyond a certain distance due to the thickness of the atmosphere.

When observing a ship disappear over the horizon, it doesn't disappear due to the thickness of the atmosphere, it disappears due to the horizon. A flat earth wouldn't have a horizon.

 

[Ken-1122]

Your talking about absolute morality, not objective.

What do you see as the difference?

I mean, even Christians who believe that God dictates an absolute morality for us cannot demonstrate that morality for others in an objective sense.

Those who see God as the moral dictator will claim because God says it, that makes it right; then they will point to where God says it.

Dont steal from members of your tribe.
Dont murder people of your own tribe.

What constitutes a member of your tribe is subjective; not objective.

These arent objective in that I can show them to you. But they are based in observation from objective reality. For example: the wise have noticed over time that life is objectively miserable when you live in a tribe where people kill each other out of the blue.... and that such tribe can be objectively observed to fall apart.

They aren't objective because they are moral issues and moral issues are subjective; not objective.

 

[Strathos]

When observing a ship disappear over the horizon, it doesn't disappear due to the thickness of the atmosphere, it disappears due to the horizon. A flat earth wouldn't have a horizon.

Cue the badly-edited YouTube videos of zooming in on ships claiming to be able to disprove this effect.

 

[Ken-1122]

Cue the badly-edited YouTube videos of zooming in on ships claiming to be able to disprove this effect.

No; I would take him to the Ocean where oil tankers and cargo ships regularly disappear over the Horizon. I would allow him to see it with his own eyes.

 

[Ed1wolf]

I guess a better wording would be "it doesn´t prevent human life".

No, if the universe did not have all the characteristics that it has including its large size then humans would not exist.

 

[Strathos]

No; I would take him to the Ocean where oil tankers and cargo ships regularly disappear over the Horizon. I would allow him to see it with his own eyes.

He'd still make up some excuse to deny it. You could take him up in a spaceship and orbit the planet and he'd still tell you it was all fake, some kind of trick.

 

[quatona]

No, if the universe did not have all the characteristics that it has including its large size then humans would not exist.

So?

 

[Ken-1122]

He'd still make up some excuse to deny it. You could take him up in a spaceship and orbit the planet and he'd still tell you it was all fake, some kind of trick.

To reject the obvious would be his choice. My point is; I can demonstrate that the shape of the Earth is of a Sphere shape rather than flat, because the shape of the Earth is objective; not subjective.

 

[Ken-1122]

Nevertheless, you admitted my point that the universe DOES support human life.

No I did not! Outside the Earth's atmosphere (which is what we are talking about), not only does it not support human life, it will actually prevent human life and kill us! That's why preventive measures has to be taken for us to go into outer space.