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The problem of Objective Morality. and why even biblical speaking it is subjective

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by Zed Aliz Zed, Oct 3, 2017.

  1. Zed Aliz Zed

    Zed Aliz Zed New Member

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    Good Evening. I am Zed Aliz Zed

    And this shall be a briefing on Morality. and issues with different kinds of it.


    What is Morality?



    The basic creed of every civilization and fundamentally the basis of "Good" and "Evil" the idea itself is probably as old as Humanity is. as even without written language, there is always an unspoken code.
    or for definition
    ob·jec·tive
    əbˈjektiv/
    adjective
    1. 1.
      (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

    And the second stance the one I will be arguing for.
    sub·jec·tive
    səbˈjektiv/
    adjective
    adjective:
    1. 1.
      based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions
    The main argument for those of the Abrahamic religion is that God is Omnipotent and Omniscience so he decides Morality. which you would think would mean its Objective based on that argument but even then that's, not a good point.

    simply because it can be taken apart simply by saying "well if Lucifer was even more powerful would you follow his creed?" most Christians would say no. but then they admit that morality cant is objective as if it comes from a higher power. then it changes depending on who holds power.

    a secondary argument is God in the bible has a personality. a goal of some sorts and a large portion of what he commands us to do helps him not us. so it could be argued his morality itself is subjective and he simply pushes it objectively on us. that would also explain how it changes throughout the Bible

    once wearing mixed fabric was a sin. see Leviticus for detail around the homosexuality. (which if you are going to quote don't lay with a man I best hope that shirt and pants are all cotton or of the same fabric or your a hypocrite)

    but seeing as how no one seems to follow the mixed fabric rule and many argue Leviticus does not apply any longer thanks to Jesus you can see a change of law and morality.

    Law itself is mostly reflected upon Morality but depends on whose in power. so really the bible does not deal in morality but in law. as the law does not claim to always reflect morality, after all, there are many law's here in the US which are seemingly [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and helps no one and yet exist for some odd reason.

    Laws also directly change year to year and sometimes in opposition to the generally held morality of the time. which makes sense as if Law is reflected on morality than it goes on the morality of whoever decides the Law.
    Morality varies person to person even within those of the same faith and sect.




    Where does that Leave Good and Evil?




    That's just it. I don't think there is any such thing as Good or Evil. while there is Illegal and Legal there is no real Good or Evil. such things require consistency and Objectivity. but if the bible changes and the general message changes and both are from the same being that he himself is not solid but liquid. and changes as well. as does every Animal we all change over time. in one way or another.

    so you yourself, if you are Christian, can argue that let us use Homosexuality as an example. you can argue it against the biblical law but you can't exactly argue it immoral. especially when even within the Christian faith it is becoming more accepted and overtime if the religion still exists in the coming century will probably be treated like that mixed fabric rule. and completely ignored.

    I Myself am Deist and see the only morality there is, is the law of nature. which is unbreakable. so there is no point trying to follow it. as you already do.

    everything else is man-made. morality itself a construction of thought. a needed tool and one we can not exist currently without but one that should not be considered in stone. as everything changes. Law. People. Time. and so we should welcome such change and keep tweaking our codes and creeds until we find the perfect set if possible.


    If you have read this far without storming off I applaud you and would love to hear your thoughts or arguments on the mater. though I probably have heard them all and countered them all at one point.

    Good Night.
     
  2. Chriliman

    Chriliman Well-Known Member

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    Morality becomes objective as soon as two or more moral beings are known to objectively exist. So yes, God's morality is subjective, but becomes objective as soon as he tells someone else(His creation) about what is true and right.
     
  3. samir

    samir Well-Known Member

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    Objective morality is based on God's moral law. It does not change throughout history nor does it change because fringe groups who self-identify as Christians choose to ignore it.

    For example, stealing out of greed to increase one's wealth is objectively evil. It has always been and always will be wrong. Even if the majority of so-called "Christian" denominations (anyone Christian or not can identify as Christian) ignored it and condoned it such thefts it would still be wrong.

    Wearing mixed fabrics has never been a sin. The laws God gave to the ancient nation of Israel were for them only and no one else. If that law prohibited wearing mixed fabrics and they wore them they'd be guilty of the sin of disobedience and not be guilty of any sin related to wearing fabrics. People in other nations at the time who wore mixed fabrics would not have been guilty of any sin because it doesn't violate God's moral law.

    Historical Christian churches (Catholic/Orthodox) believe some of the laws God gave to Israel (such as sodomy - men lying with men) were based upon God's moral law which means they consider them to be sinful for everyone at any time. That's the reason why Christians follow some of the Old Testament laws but not all of them.
     
  4. Zed Aliz Zed

    Zed Aliz Zed New Member

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    if such is the case one can easily argue against such commands as his only basis of their goodness is based on him having the biggest stick. which is more so Tyranny than anything. and is no different than a King handing decree's down even if they are not for the betterment of the people simply because he is the most powerful. that is what Britain did to the colonies and why America rebelled. they didn't like a far-off foreign power telling them what to do
     
  5. Zed Aliz Zed

    Zed Aliz Zed New Member

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    even if such apply's to only them. then it is still based on a moral decree as wearing mixed fabric harms no one. and again is why that law never shows up again. because the writers noticed how stupid it was and never bothered continuing it, unlike other laws. I mean most kings including Solomon are depicted wearing mixed fabric. its a sign of a King. so it can be assumed it only applied to the Israelites but then again so can every other law in Leviticus as it never states it intended to target.

    Furthermore, it is quite arrogant to state one law only apply's to X when the law above it apply's to Everyone. unless both laws state a directed target it can easily be assumed they apply to everyone or one in particular but they both have to apply to the same otherwise it's simply cherry picking.
     
  6. Chriliman

    Chriliman Well-Known Member

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    What does Jesus command?

    Love one another as I have loved you(laying his life down for us). Does that seem like something someone on a power trip would do? Hopefully, you think no.

    Get to know who Jesus is and what he teaches and why he teaches it, it's worth the struggles it will inevitably bring.
     
  7. Cuddles333

    Cuddles333 Well-Known Member

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    When something is objective such as a rich man stealing from a poor man, even though the rich man already has more than he will ever be able to spend, this is considered objectively evil. Something that has always been and always will be no matter if you and I never existed. Objective morality existed before mankind could communicate with on another.

    Objective morality is sometimes confused with 'Universal' morality. This is just a consensus that groups of people agree about certain things are morally wrong or right within the communities.
    Absolute morality is a dead weight that demanded (for example) that those who hid Jewish children from the Nazis had to give them up to them because to lie about having them would be a violation of scripture.

    Where Objective morality comes from is where Love comes from.... God's nature. Mankind, it is written in Acts 17, says that we are His offspring. There be it.
     
  8. DogmaHunter

    DogmaHunter Code Monkey

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    That makes no sense at all.

    No. Subjective things don't magically become objective once they are communicated.
     
  9. DogmaHunter

    DogmaHunter Code Monkey

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    And following that reasoning....
    Stoning disobedient children, stoning adulturers, killing witches, killing gays, keeping slaves,... are all objectively moral practices.

    But you just said that god's moral law does not change throughout history....
    So which is it?

    ps: the 10 commandments are part of those 613 laws that apparantly don't apply anymore.
     
  10. DogmaHunter

    DogmaHunter Code Monkey

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    What life? Isn't Jesus supposed to be an immortal, all-powerful entity?

    If I were all powerfull and immortal, I could do it a billion times over, just for the fun of it.
    It would have absolutely no meaning. It's like giving away 50 billion dollars while having an infinite amount of money.
     
  11. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

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    Without God, there is no morality.
     
  12. samir

    samir Well-Known Member

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    The laws God gave to the nation of Israel had a purpose (it would take too long to explain here) so your statement "the writers noticed how stupid it was and never bothered continuing it" is false.

    The Bible clearly specifies to whom the laws in Leviticus were given. No one else has ever been required to follow any of them.
     
  13. samir

    samir Well-Known Member

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    You're not thinking correctly.

    That's correct. God's moral law never changes.

    They apply to the people they were given to for the time period to which they were given. That will never change and will always apply.
     
  14. SPF

    SPF Well-Known Member

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    First off, most of what you've written is nothing beyond assertions without supporting arguments. So it's difficult to respond when you don't actually put forth much of an argument. A simple syllogism at the very least would be helpful.

    For instance, it sounds like you're saying something like this in the above paragraph:

    P1: The being with ultimate power/authority determines morality.
    P2: God possesses ultimate power/authority.
    C1: Therefore, God determines morality.

    But then your argument against the above consists of this: "If Lucifer was even more powerful than God, then morality would be subjective because morality would come from Lucifer and not God, and Lucifer would hold different morals"

    And that's just silly. A simple working definition of God would define God as a "maximally perfect being". Meaning, there is nothing or no being greater than God. So no being can ever become more God than God already is, or else God is actually not God. One of the fundamental attributes of God is that He alone is eternal. So there cannot be now, or ever, a being more powerful than God.

    Morality can only be objective if the source of morality is found outside of man. If man is the measure of morality, then it indeed is necessarily subjective because no man has more intrinsic authority over another man to determine what is morally right and wrong. Objective morals can only exist if God exists.

    This is so odd that I can't even work it out into an argument to respond to. It sounds like you're saying this:

    P1: God has a personality.
    P2: Many of Gods commands are beneficial to Himself.
    C1: Therefore, morality is subjective.

    I'm sure you can see how the conclusion really in no way follows from the premises. I certainly agree that God has a personality. I would need to see you support P2 though before accepting it. And then I would need to see how you actually make the connection of your conclusion to the premises, because I definitely am not seeing it.

    As far as the rest goes, I think you have a fundamental ignorance when it comes to understand OT law compared to moral law.
     
  15. DogmaHunter

    DogmaHunter Code Monkey

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    I bet you say that to everyone who doesn't agree with you.

    So slavery is okay then.
    So is stoning people. And genocide.

    That directly contradicts the idea of a timeless and objective morality.

    Make up your mind.
     
  16. DogmaHunter

    DogmaHunter Code Monkey

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    With god, there is only obedience to perceived authority, and no morality.
     
  17. samir

    samir Well-Known Member

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    No. I only say it to people who aren't thinking logically.


    Yes.


    No it does not. Wearing mixed fabrics was not forbidden because it was objectively immoral or sinful.


    About what? I thought I was clear that what is objectively moral never changes.
     
  18. Cuddles333

    Cuddles333 Well-Known Member

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    The prohibition against wearing of clothing belonging to the opposite sex and the wearing of garments made with mixed fabrics, was due to these practices of the pagan worship cults the Israelites would be encountering.

    The prohibitions against the consuming of shellfish, fish without scales, and swine, was due to their containing dangerous parasites.

    The order to destroy the pagan armies and the purifying by fire of their materials, is starting to be understood as our technology becomes more advanced, removing the superstitions Jews and Christians held for so many years.
     
  19. Noxot

    Noxot far away Supporter

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    morality is the idea that you and other people matter. therefore it comes from wisdom and love. God is wisdom and love. there is no such thing as wisdom and love that is separated from personality.

    subjectivity of the spirit matters a great deal to God to the point that it is higher than morality and objective reality due to God being the end of morality and we being made in Gods image. God and mankind are one of the main mysteries and themes of reality and to be subjugated to a morality that is outside yourself is missing the mark.

    subjectivity is also higher or more fundmental than objective reality because objective reality ultimately comes from and serves the subjectivity of both man and God (i.e. this universe is a product of souls and God, not just God.) so object reality is a low resolution image of reality. a profound morality requires a person to be and to become, to live, to think, make judgments and be creative and to not merely be pushed around and forced.

    morality is only objective in the sense that since we must abide by certain rules there exist better and worse ways of acting in the world. wisdom and love have enough potential in them to mean that abiding by mere objective standards separated from the subject is slavery.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
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  20. Strathos

    Strathos No one important

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    If Lucifer was more powerful than God, then he wouldn't be Lucifer, and God wouldn't be God.

    You might as well ask 'What if the number 2 came before 1'?
     
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