The problem of Objective Morality. and why even biblical speaking it is subjective

Dan1988 said:

Logic and reason fail every single time, man has been trying to use his reason and logic since the beginning and he has always failed. He is no closer to finding the truth than when he started, 6000 years ago.

Man is wicked to his core. There is no good in man, he has managed to defile the planet with pollution and radiation and cancers and crime and drug addiction and prostitution and AIDS and family breakdown and wars and murder and homosexuality and hatred and starvation of 20,000 children every day and mental illness by prescription medication and suicide and overdose and corrupt government and monetary systems and family members hating each other and false religions and cults and sects and terrorism and child rape and greed and so many other fine qualities of these who use their logic and reason.

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Your problem is that you view "man" as a collective and you attempt to judge them all according to the worse often as if that is the standard rather than the exception. I see people as individuals, and I only speak for myself. the above wicked stuff you mention does not apply to me, I'm better than that.

Dan1988 said:

The end result of using logic and reason is being cast into hell to scream in the flames for all eternity. You can't say you didn't know or you weren't warned, somebody came and suffered untold pain and agony to save you from hell and if you reject His offer of eternal paradise and choose hell then you only have yourself to blame.

God said, cursed is the man who trusts in himself or other people and blessed is the man who trust in Him. If you rely on your intellect and understanding and reason and logic, you will most certainly get lost in confusion. Your enemy is hell bent on dragging you to hell with Him, He knows He's going to spend eternity burning and He knows He only has a short time so all He can do is deceive as many as He can so they can suffer with Him.

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But how do you know you can trust God? think about it; of all of Gods creations who knew him best? Satan/Lucifer. He knew God better than anyone else yet he rejected God. Lucifer had knowledge off God and he rejected him; you are ignorant of God (compared to Lucifer) yet you accept him. How do you know if you knew God the way Satan knew God that you wouldn't have rejected him too?

Tinker Grey said:

How do you know that? Do you trust your judgment for knowing that?


How do you know that? Do you trust your judgment for knowing that?

I'm saying you have no choice.


How do you know that? Do you trust your judgment for knowing that?


How do you know that? Do you trust your judgment for knowing that?

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I trust that because it's Gods Word, God commands us to believe Him so it has nothing to do with trusting my judgement. It's a matter of obedience, God commands us to believe everything He said. He came to the earth in the person of Jesus Christ and told us everything we need to know about the truth.

There is only one Bible and everything God said has been faithfully recorded in the Bible so we are all without excuse. Every single person will be judged according to the relationship they had with Jesus. Jesus saw judgement day and He said He would cast everyone who doesn't know Him as their savior into hell to burn forever.

You cannot reason your way around the fact that you will stand before Christ to be judged, if you hear the words, "depart from me into the everlasting fire prepared for Satan and His Demons and unbelievers" then you will realize how impotent your argument is.

Ken-1122 said:

Your problem is that you view "man" as a collective and you attempt to judge them all according to the worse often as if that is the standard rather than the exception. I see people as individuals, and I only speak for myself. the above wicked stuff you mention does not apply to me, I'm better than that.


But how do you know you can trust God? think about it; of all of Gods creations who knew him best? Satan/Lucifer. He knew God better than anyone else yet he rejected God. Lucifer had knowledge off God and he rejected him; you are ignorant of God (compared to Lucifer) yet you accept him. How do you know if you knew God the way Satan knew God that you wouldn't have rejected him too?

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That's not me judging everyone as being wicked above all creatures, that's what God said in the Bible about all mankind in general. Just because you may not have committed any grievous crimes or grievous sins yet doesn't mean that you aren't capable of committing them.
You have the seeds of murder, adultery and all kinds of evil in your heart, all they need is the right opportunity and they will come to life.

Sin was born in Lucifer, because He wanted to be like God. He was cast out of heaven down to the earth along with a third of the Angels who rebelled with Lucifer. Yes Lucifer knew God very well but I wouldn't say He knows Him better than me, Gods Spirit dwells within me so I know Him very well and I would say much more than Satan knows Him.

God didn't save Satan from His sin, He left Him in His sin so He is sealed for eternal torment in hell fire. But He did save me from my sin and His Spirit indwells me so I am a part of God Himself, my old sinful spirit was replaced by Gods Holy Spirit so I know God much better than Satan could ever know Him.

Strathos said:

Doesn't stop them from claiming it though. Lots of people don't read their own holy books.



People will follow anyone or anything if they are raised to believe in it. And that's my main point here - the issue of belief. People can convince themselves to the point where they are 100% certain about something and still be wrong.



I agree. My point is, though, that people who follow other religions (and even Christians who have slightly different doctrines than you or I) can still be, and often are, convinced that they are correct.

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I see your point, everyone believes that what they believe is true but there is only one truth and thousands of false beliefs and religions. Everyone who is outside of the truth is under the dominion of Satan and His Demons who deceive the whole world.

Jesus said, there is a way that seems right to man but it's end is death. Death in this context means hell, those in hell will experience the dying perpetually. They will continue to die forever but they will never cease to exist.

Jesus didn't come and suffer on the cross because He was bored in heaven, He came because there was no other way of dealing with sin. He came to pay for the sins of all true believers so they wouldn't have to pay for them in hell.

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me", if there was another way He would have told us about it so he is the only way. This is why Gods people reject every other so called prophet, guru or religious leader or teaching. Jesus is the only way and everyone who reject Him is guranteed to spend eternity in hell.

Dan1988 said:

I see your point, everyone believes that what they believe is true but there is only one truth and thousands of false beliefs and religions. Everyone who is outside of the truth is under the dominion of Satan and His Demons who deceive the whole world.

Jesus said, there is a way that seems right to man but it's end is death. Death in this context means hell, those in hell will experience the dying perpetually. They will continue to die forever but they will never cease to exist.

Jesus didn't come and suffer on the cross because He was bored in heaven, He came because there was no other way of dealing with sin. He came to pay for the sins of all true believers so they wouldn't have to pay for them in hell.

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by Me", if there was another way He would have told us about it so he is the only way. This is why Gods people reject every other so called prophet, guru or religious leader or teaching. Jesus is the only way and everyone who reject Him is guranteed to spend eternity in hell.

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And what about doctrinal differences like Catholic vs. Protestant vs. Orthodox?

Dan1988 said:

I trust that because it's Gods Word, God commands us to believe Him

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How do you know that? Do you trust your judgment for knowing that?

so it has nothing to do with trusting my judgement.

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It has everything to do with it. You can't "know" it is "God's word" without trusting your judgment that it is so.

Tinker Grey said:

How do you know that? Do you trust your judgment for knowing that?
It has everything to do with it. You can't "know" it is "God's word" without trusting your judgment that it is so.

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I'm not trusting my judgement, I'm trusting God and His Word as it has been recorded by His prophets for us.

The cold hard truth of the matter is that God choose to save certain people before He created the world, most Christians have a problem with this truth. They believe that it's their choice to believe that saves them, but Jesus said that God choose to save a people for His own Glory and they are His elect.

So the cold hard truth is God choose to save a certain number of people before He created the world, billions have been chosen for salvation before they were created. God din't have to save anyone because we have all sinned and none of us are worthy of salvation, but He chose to save them out of His amazing love and mercy.

So we believe and trust in God because He revealed the truth to us, we didn't arrive at the truth by using our reason, wisdom and understanding. The truth was given to us as a gift, so we instinctively know the truth when we hear it while those who are not chosen will go to their grave not believing the truth no matter how much evidence they are shown.

The natural man does not receive the truth, neither can he receive the truth because Spiritual things are Spiritually discerned and a carnal man cannot believe Spiritual things because they are foolishness to him.

Only Gods elect will truly believe in His Son, who came to pay the penalty for the sins of Gods elect. The unbelievers will have to pay for their sins in hell, God will not tolerate sin in His presence. Heaven is perfectly pure and clean, He will not allow any sin to pollute it so all unbelievers will have to pay for their sins in hell for all eternity.

I know that most professing Christians don't believe in predestination and election, it's a very hard doctrine to deal with because our minds are sinful and fallen so we are not able to comprehend why God does what he does. We are trying to understand an infinitely wise and good and almighty God, with a very limited narrow little sinful mind.

God has a very good reason for everything he does, He is perfect and righteous and just and loving and merciful and patient and forgiving. Sinful man accuses Him of being unfair because He didn't choose to save everyone, but who are we to judge what God does. He has every right to do what ever He pleases to do and we have no right to judge anything He does.

Dan1988 said:

That's not me judging everyone as being wicked above all creatures, that's what God said in the Bible about all mankind in general. Just because you may not have committed any grievous crimes or grievous sins yet doesn't mean that you aren't capable of committing them.

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Just because I am capable of doing harm doesn’t mean I am guilty of harm. I take responsibility for what I do; not what I am capable of doing

Dan1988 said:

You have the seeds of murder, adultery and all kinds of evil in your heart, all they need is the right opportunity and they will come to life.

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I also have the seeds of helping, kindness, and all kinds of good in my heart. Though not perfect, I do far more good than bad. If you are going to judge me, you should judge me based on the 95% good that I do not the 5% bad; otherwise you are giving more power to evil than you are to good.

Dan1988 said:

Sin was born in Lucifer, because He wanted to be like God. He was cast out of heaven down to the earth along with a third of the Angels who rebelled with Lucifer. Yes Lucifer knew God very well but I wouldn't say He knows Him better than me, Gods Spirit dwells within me so I know Him very well and I would say much more than Satan knows Him.

God didn't save Satan from His sin, He left Him in His sin so He is sealed for eternal torment in hell fire. But He did save me from my sin and His Spirit indwells me so I am a part of God Himself, my old sinful spirit was replaced by Gods Holy Spirit so I know God much better than Satan could ever know Him.

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Ahh so God’s spirit dwells within you, so you’ve concluded God is good and Satan is bad? I’ll bet if Satan’s spirit dwelled within you, you would conclude Satan was good and God was bad. And since you are incapable of determining right from wrong on your own without the help of a possessing spirit, how do you know this spirit possessing you is actually the good spirit and not the bad one what has convinced you it is good?

Belk said:

I will ask a second time. What are the characteristics by which we can determine that something is an effect?

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I answered this early in this thread, something that has a beginning and/or is changing.

Dan1988 said:

The process of destroying evil will be a perpetually eternal process. All of those who will be cast into hell will continue to b blaspheme against God, while they are tormented in the flames. So their sentence will continue to grow as the continue to sin, they will not have the capacity to stop sinning so their punishment will b e eternal.

So sin will continue to exist forever but it will be in the prison of hell, where there is no escape so their sin will never effect the the Saints again. We will be eternally safe from any sin or evil or wickedness.

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I am referring to this universe and the new universe. Hell is not part of this universe or the new one. BTW, we dont really know if there will be literally flames in hell, many scholars believe that is a hyperbolic symbol of the pain of hell. Jesus often used hyperbole in His teachings as did many first century rabbis.

Dan1988 said:

The problem is we have reprobate men asking why God does what He does. The reprobate are not equipped to receive the answer to any of their questions, because they don't know the first thing about God.

You will notice that none of Gods people have any questions ab out Him, as He has revealed everything He wants us to know about Him to us. So you will never find a true Christian asking "why would God?".

God has revealed the truth about everything to us, so we have no questions left unanswered. We are illuminated, while all those who don't know the Lord remain in darkness. They have been deceived into believing lies, so they are in bondage to their master Satan. They are so blind to the truth that they don't even know how to discern the difference between truth and lies.

Satan has managed to deceive the majority of mankind, He keeps them in darkness so they are all going to spend eternity in hell with Satan and His Demons.

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Sorry but I disagree on some of what you are saying, many devout believers have asked God why He did certain things. Jonah asked God why did he save his live in the whale. Read Abraham's conversation about Sodom with God about asking Him why He would destroy it since there were possibly some believers in there. Also, God has not told us EVERYTHING. There are many things that happen in the world that we dont know exactly why they happened, but He will give us the answers in the next life.

Dan1988 said:

I'm not trusting my judgement, I'm trusting God and His Word as it has been recorded by His prophets for us.

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Did you not make the judgement that the Bible is God's word? Your judgement.

Ken-1122 said:

Ed1wolf said: ↑
No, the difference is you and God are both persons, the dog is not a person, it is something totally different.
ken: A person is defined as a human being. Just because something isn't human doesn't mean it cant have freewill
the definition of person

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No, see definition no. 5 in your own link. A person does not necessarily mean it is a human. But there is no evidence that dogs have a true free will. For example, a healthy but hungry dog will never refuse to eat. But a healthy but hungry human person can use his will power and refuse to eat for any number of reasons.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
You are supposedly trying to find out if dogs have a morality. So you should let dog do its thing and then see if it has some type of moral system,

ken: Wolves in a pack have been studied, and there are obvious rules of the pack. Perhaps this is their moral system.

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Perhaps but the rules of the pack are primarily just to establish the pack hierarchy, they do not appear to be any type of moral rules. Wolves sometimes kill and eat their fellow pack members or even their young. And yet they are never punished for doing so. So there does not appear to be any sense of justice, which is a major part of having a moral system.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
not train it to act the way you want it to.

ken: As a Christian, do you follow your rules? Or God’s rules.

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As a non-dog, you dont have any authority over the dog unless the Creator of both of you gives it to you. God as our Creator DOES have authority over all humans and dogs too of course. So we should try to follow His rules because He knows what is best for us.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Yes, generally that is true.

ken: So because Hitler was never punished for his deeds, everything he did was good, and because Jesus was punished for his deeds, everything he did was evil. Is this what you are saying?

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No, of course not. Because this world is flawed and abnormal due to the Fall, there are injustices that occur. So God created Hell to mete out justice on those who did not receive it in this world.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Especially if the society you live in is based on biblical principles.

ken: I’m not familiar with any societies based on biblical principles; are you?

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The USA and most of western Europe are still generally based on Christian biblical principles.

Ed1wolf said:

No, see definition no. 5 in your own link. A person does not necessarily mean it is a human. But there is no evidence that dogs have a true free will.

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Again; please explain the difference between freewill and true freewill; because I've got a feeling humans don't have "true" freewill either.

Ed1wolf said:

For example, a healthy but hungry dog will never refuse to eat.

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Untrue.

Ed1wolf said:

But a healthy but hungry human person can use his will power and refuse to eat for any number of reasons.

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So will many animals.

Ed1wolf said:

Perhaps but the rules of the pack are primarily just to establish the pack hierarchy, they do not appear to be any type of moral rules.

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Perhaps their morals are just different than yours. Perhaps you just don't understand their morals.

Ed1wolf said:

Wolves sometimes kill and eat their fellow pack members or even their young. And yet they are never punished for doing so. So there does not appear to be any sense of justice, which is a major part of having a moral system.

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Morals are subjective. Just because you (and I) consider it immoral to eat their young, doesn’t mean they do.

Ed1wolf said:

No, of course not. Because this world is flawed and abnormal due to the Fall, there are injustices that occur. So God created Hell to mete out justice on those who did not receive it in this world.

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Wait a minute; at first you said if your deeds are punished by the group, that means you’ve done something wrong, and if your deeds go unpunished by the group, that means you’ve done nothing wrong! So you’re changing it now? Remember; Jesus was punished by the group! Are you flip flopping?

Ed1wolf said:

The USA and most of western Europe are still generally based on Christian biblical principles.

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Which laws in the USA and Europe are based on Christian biblical principles? And don’t go saying Don’t kill, Don’t steal; etc. because in order for a principle to be Christian biblical, it could not have existed prior to Christianity or the Bible. Example; it would be foolish to proclaim a principle that was started by Hinduism, or Buddhism but copied by Christians; to proclaim it as a Christian biblical principle. So I ask; which principle was the USA and Europe based on that was started by Christians and didn’t exist prior to Christianity or the Bible? Enslaving Africans in a foreign land? I don’t think that was done prior to Christianity; I dunno I’m asking!

Ed1wolf said:

I am referring to this universe and the new universe. Hell is not part of this universe or the new one. BTW, we dont really know if there will be literally flames in hell, many scholars believe that is a hyperbolic symbol of the pain of hell. Jesus often used hyperbole in His teachings as did many first century rabbis.

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God has created different dimensions, such as the spiritual realm so hell may very well be in that dimension but that doesn't mean that they don't feel pain or emotions.

The Bible is very clear, hell is described as a lake of fire that will never be quenched and the smoke of those who are tormented in it will rise forever and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Don't forget we are dealing with a God who is not limited by natural laws, He can speak anything into existence. He described hell in His Word clearly, sure they may not be red flames of fire but the heat is super hot even if is black fire in darkness.

The point is, hell is the most horrific place imaginable and it's eternal so we must warn everyone to do everything necessary to avoid it. Christ said, "as many as believe in Me shall be saved" so everyone who truly believes in Christ will be saved.

Ed1wolf said:

I am referring to this universe and the new universe. Hell is not part of this universe or the new one. BTW, we dont really know if there will be literally flames in hell, many scholars believe that is a hyperbolic symbol of the pain of hell. Jesus often used hyperbole in His teachings as did many first century rabbis.

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God has created different dimensions, such as the spiritual realm so hell may very well be in that dimension but that doesn't mean that they don't feel pain or emotions.

The Bible is very clear, hell is described as a lake of fire that will never be quenched and the smoke of those who are tormented in it will rise forever and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Don't forget we are dealing with a God who is not limited by natural laws, He can speak anything into existence. He described hell in His Word clearly, sure they may not be red flames of fire but the heat is super hot even if is black fire in darkness.

The point is, hell is the most horrific place imaginable and it's eternal so we must warn everyone to do everything necessary to avoid it. Christ said, "as many as believe in Me shall be saved" so everyone who truly believes in Christ will be saved.

Ed1wolf said:

Sorry but I disagree on some of what you are saying, many devout believers have asked God why He did certain things. Jonah asked God why did he save his live in the whale. Read Abraham's conversation about Sodom with God about asking Him why He would destroy it since there were possibly some believers in there. Also, God has not told us EVERYTHING. There are many things that happen in the world that we dont know exactly why they happened, but He will give us the answers in the next life.

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Ed1wolf said:

Sorry but I disagree on some of what you are saying, many devout believers have asked God why He did certain things. Jonah asked God why did he save his live in the whale. Read Abraham's conversation about Sodom with God about asking Him why He would destroy it since there were possibly some believers in there. Also, God has not told us EVERYTHING. There are many things that happen in the world that we dont know exactly why they happened, but He will give us the answers in the next life.

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I was refering to unbelievers asking why God does what He does and I was making the point that they are asking question for which they are not equipped to receive the answers to.

The last person God spoke to was John, when He told him to write the book of revelation. Since than God hasn't spoken to men because He has told us everything He wanted us to know. We won't be able to process everything about God in this short life, so as you said we will learn more in the life to come.

Tinker Grey said:

Did you not make the judgement that the Bible is God's word? Your judgement.

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No, I made no such judgement. I received Gods Word miraculously, meaning I received it while most of my friends rejected it. I don't know why God gave me the capacity to believe His Word while others reject it.

I'm no smarter than my non believing friends, so I don't know why God chose to reveal the truth to me and hide it from my friends. The Bible says that God's elect are the only ones who have been given the gift of the ability to believe.

The Bible is very clear, there are only two types of people on the planet. True believers and non believers, every other religion and belief system is essentially the same whereby they believe if you do good works good things will happen to you.

True Christianity teaches that, man's best works are as filthy rags in Gods sight so He's not impressed with our good works at all. Christ taught that everyone's heart is wicked above all things and nobody can trust a person.

Christ taught that we are all born dead in sins and trespasses and we can't do anything to change that. As such we are condemned to spend eternity in hell after this life is over, so our only hope of salvation is Christ. If He doesn't save us, then we are truly condemned to hell.

Christ warned everyone to repent and follow Him and he would save us, but if we ignore His warning then we only have ourselves to blame for our eternal damnation.

Dan1988 said:

I received Gods Word miraculously, ...

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How did you conclude that this was true?

God gave me the capacity to believe His Word...

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How did you conclude that this was true?

This is your judgement.

Tinker Grey said:

How did you conclude that this was true?How did you conclude that this was true?

This is your judgement.

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No Sir, it had nothing to do with my judgement. I was in bondage to Satan, when I God liberated me. If you were doing really hard labor in prison and someone comes along and releases you and makes you brand new, you would listen and believe what that person says.

I can't prove anything to you, it's like explaining the colors of a rainbow to someone who has been totally blind from birth. All I can say, is you will know without doubt when God communicates with you. You will know it for a fact but you won't be able to bottle it and show others

Dan1988 said:

God liberated me.

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How did you conclude this? Your judgement.

Dan1988 said:

I can't prove anything to you, it's like explaining the colors of a rainbow to someone who has been totally blind from birth. All I can say, is you will know without doubt when God communicates with you. You will know it for a fact but you won't be able to bottle it and show others

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This is the point. At bottom, whatever you believe, however you came to believe it, you drew a conclusion (made a judgement). (Caveat: This may be true only at such time as one articulates the belief.) This is inescapable. If you think something is true, you have judged that it is true.