The problem of Objective Morality. and why even biblical speaking it is subjective

[Dan1988]

He allowed it to happen but He did not desire it to happen. And He allowed it in order to destroy evil forever.

The process of destroying evil will be a perpetually eternal process. All of those who will be cast into hell will continue to b blaspheme against God, while they are tormented in the flames. So their sentence will continue to grow as the continue to sin, they will not have the capacity to stop sinning so their punishment will b e eternal.

So sin will continue to exist forever but it will be in the prison of hell, where there is no escape so their sin will never effect the the Saints again. We will be eternally safe from any sin or evil or wickedness.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
No, God did not want death for humanity originally, it only came about because of our rebellion. So death is a necessary evil for the Christian worldview, but this is not true for atheistic worldview, it is actually a good thing for humanity as a whole.

dur: Yeah. Death gives other people a chance to try out this thing called life.

Seems kind of selfish for a relative few to hog all the living.

But if we had not rebelled against God, none of us would have ever had to die. There is still a chance for those of us that are presently alive to experience that in the next universe if they want to.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
When you train a dog, you are imposing your own rules on to him. He is not making his own rules/morality. And the dog is just responding to reward and punishment. He wants the reward and he wants to avoid the punishment.

ken: Can’t the same be said about you? God is imposing his own rules on you. You aren’t making your own rules/morality, you are just responding to reward and punishment. You want the reward (Heaven) and you want to avoid the punishment (Hell).

No, the difference is you and God are both persons, the dog is not a person, it is something totally different. You are supposedly trying to find out if dogs have a morality. So you should let dog do its thing and then see if it has some type of moral system, not train it to act the way you want it to.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Morality is certain behaviors that bring ultimate good to individuals and groups and if individuals violate those rules or behaviors they are usually punished by the group by those violations in order to produce another good, ie justice.

ken: So according to you, if your deeds goes unpunished, you’ve done nothing morally wrong, and if your deeds are punished, that means you've done something morally wrong. Is this correct?

Yes, generally that is true. Especially if the society you live in is based on biblical principles.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
How do you know he knows?

ken: Body language, and facial expressions.

So you know what a dog knows just by body language and facial expressions? You are better than a dog whisperer or the greatest dog expert. Even they dont know what dogs know other than the obvious.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
First answer my question then I will answer yours.

ken: I would consider the cop who chose to do nothing to be as immoral as a God who chose to do nothing. Now answer mine.

But you said that a good cop always shows mercy and lets the person go. Now you are contradicting yourself. The Christian God doesn't do nothing, He either punishes you in this world with government authorities or in the next world in hell.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
No, we are able to train them because they want rewards, ie good stimuli, and want to avoid bad stimuli, ie punishment. It has nothing to do with morality.

ken: The same could be said about you and Heaven/Hell.

No, because God and us are both persons, so we have similar moral systems. Especially since we are made in the image of God we were created with a moral conscience. Dogs are basically programmed to do certain things and respond to certain stimuli in basically the same way everytime, they dont have a true free will. Without a true free will you cannot make moral decisions.

 

[quatona]

There's no such thing as common sense,

Then you better not ask questions such as "Why would God...?".

 

[Dan1988]

Then you better not ask questions such as "Why would God...?".

The problem is we have reprobate men asking why God does what He does. The reprobate are not equipped to receive the answer to any of their questions, because they don't know the first thing about God.

You will notice that none of Gods people have any questions ab out Him, as He has revealed everything He wants us to know about Him to us. So you will never find a true Christian asking "why would God?".

God has revealed the truth about everything to us, so we have no questions left unanswered. We are illuminated, while all those who don't know the Lord remain in darkness. They have been deceived into believing lies, so they are in bondage to their master Satan. They are so blind to the truth that they don't even know how to discern the difference between truth and lies.

Satan has managed to deceive the majority of mankind, He keeps them in darkness so they are all going to spend eternity in hell with Satan and His Demons.

 

[Ken-1122]

No, the difference is you and God are both persons, the dog is not a person, it is something totally different.

A person is defined as a human being. Just because something isn't human doesn't mean it cant have freewill
the definition of person

You are supposedly trying to find out if dogs have a morality. So you should let dog do its thing and then see if it has some type of moral system,

Wolves in a pack have been studied, and there are obvious rules of the pack. Perhaps this is their moral system.

not train it to act the way you want it to.

As a Christian, do you follow your rules? Or God’s rules.

Yes, generally that is true.

So because Hitler was never punished for his deeds, everything he did was good, and because Jesus was punished for his deeds, everything he did was evil. Is this what you are saying?

Especially if the society you live in is based on biblical principles.

I’m not familiar with any societies based on biblical principles; are you?

So you know what a dog knows just by body language and facial expressions?

I didn’t say that. When I am angry, my dog has the look of fear in his eyes, his head lowers, and his tail goes between his legs. When I am happy, my dog acts excited, his head is raised, and his tail wags. My dog can often recognize my mood and he reacts accordingly.

But you said that a good cop always shows mercy and lets the person go. Now you are contradicting yourself.

I never said that. It is not a cops job to dole out mercy or justice. I said you could be forgiving and still be moral. Do you know the difference?

The Christian God doesn't do nothing, He either punishes you in this world with government authorities or in the next world in hell.

He should have STOPPED Hitler; he should have STOPPED Amin. He should have STOPPED Mao. Punishing them after they slaughtered millions is a little too late.

No, because God and us are both persons, so we have similar moral systems. Especially since we are made in the image of God we were created with a moral conscience.

How about those people (like Amin or Dahmer) whose moral system is much different than Gods? Are they moral too?

Dogs are basically programmed to do certain things and respond to certain stimuli in basically the same way everytime, they dont have a true free will. Without a true free will you cannot make moral decisions.

What is the difference between free will vs True free will? Because nobody has complete free will; everybody’s desires are restricted in one way or another. So if true freewill is complete freewill; then I say you don’t have it either. If you disagree, try walking into a bank and taking all their money and see what happens.

 

[Ken-1122]

The problem is we have reprobate men asking why God does what He does. The reprobate are not equipped to receive the answer to any of their questions, because they don't know the first thing about God.

You will notice that none of Gods people have any questions ab out Him, as He has revealed everything He wants us to know about Him to us. So you will never find a true Christian asking "why would God?".

God has revealed the truth about everything to us, so we have no questions left unanswered. We are illuminated, while all those who don't know the Lord remain in darkness. They have been deceived into believing lies, so they are in bondage to their master Satan. They are so blind to the truth that they don't even know how to discern the difference between truth and lies.

Satan has managed to deceive the majority of mankind, He keeps them in darkness so they are all going to spend eternity in hell with Satan and His Demons.

That which is good, and that which is the truth should ALWAYS be up for question. If you have a problem with me questioning what you call good and truth, I'll have no part of it.

 

[Ken-1122]

But if we had not rebelled against God, none of us would have ever had to die. There is still a chance for those of us that are presently alive to experience that in the next universe if they want to.

*The knowledge that I will some day die is what creates the focus that I bring to life, the urgency to love, accomplish, to make a difference now before it’s too late. If I could always wait for tomorrow, it will never get done.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson

 

[quatona]

The problem is we have reprobate men asking why God does what He does.

Well, you were the one asking the question. So I conclude you consider yourself "reprobate".

 

[Dan1988]

Why would a god outside of time perceive millions of years as anything other than an instant?

That's what I'm saying, a thousand years is as a day to the Lord. He is outside of time, He's not restricted by time and space as we are.

 

[Dan1988]

Why not? A day to God is like a thousand years to us, after all. He doesn't operate on the same timescales we do.

We know exactly why he diodn't take millions years, He told us that He created the earth and universe in six days. If He took millions of years He would have told us, we have His inerrant Word in the Holy Bible.

 

[Dan1988]

Don't tell me, let me guess. You are one of the elect?

Of' course I'm one of the elect Saints of God, every elect person knows they are. are you jealous????

 

[Dan1988]

But if we had not rebelled against God, none of us would have ever had to die. There is still a chance for those of us that are presently alive to experience that in the next universe if they want to.

The problem is, those who God doesn't draw to Himself will never choose to believe on their own. The things of God are foolishness to the reprobate, they will never choose to believe because they are dead in their sins and trespasses. A spiritually dead man cannot choose to believe spiritual things, unless God quickness him to life.

So salvation is in Gods hands, it has nothing to do with man at all. Nobody would be saved if God left them to make their own decision.

 

[Dan1988]

That which is good, and that which is the truth should ALWAYS be up for question. If you have a problem with me questioning what you call good and truth, I'll have no part of it.

We were never called to question anything God does, we were only commanded to trust and obey. Faith is blind, but if you don't have it you are not going to be saved.

 

[Dan1988]

Well, you were the one asking the question. So I conclude you consider yourself "reprobate".

My comment wasn't a question, it was calling out those who believe that God used a long period of time to create the earth and universe to qualify their beliefs.

 

[Belk]

Of' course I'm one of the elect Saints of God, every elect person knows they are. are you jealous????

 

[Strathos]

We know exactly why he diodn't take millions years, He told us that He created the earth and universe in six days. If He took millions of years He would have told us, we have His inerrant Word in the Holy Bible.

2 Peter 3:8

 

[Strathos]

Of' course I'm one of the elect Saints of God, every elect person knows they are. are you jealous????

Do you believe that it is possible for someone to believe they are elect but be mistaken?

 

[Ken-1122]

We were never called to question anything God does, we were only commanded to trust and obey.

I said nothing about being called to question, I spoke of choosing to question

Faith is blind, but if you don't have it you are not going to be saved.

My problem with faith is that there is no means of establishing the truth.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Actually Hawking and Penrose did mention the possibility of a causal agent outside of space and time in 1970. But most would not do it because it would mean the end of their career. They would be accused of being crazy fundies.

ken: If they had facts on their side, they would not be accused of being crazy fundies.

Not necessarily, facts dont always convince people if it goes against their agenda look at the Democratic party and CNN and the so-called "Russian collusion" scandal.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
YOU are the one that brought up other scientists, you said that nobody who was a "real" scientist believes even close to what I believe. I was just showing you that you were wrong.

ken: No, I said Science does not support your claim.

There is no such thing as Science, there is only science and scientists.

ken: Just because somebody calls themselves a scientist doesn’t mean everything they say is going to be supported by science. These people are likely to have opinions too!

For theoretical science, most conclusions ARE opinion. Only empirical science is not based on opinion. You do know the difference dont you?

Ed1wolf said: ↑
See this definition from Answers.com: "In Physics, singularity is a point at which a function takes an infinite value, especially in space-time when matter is infinitely dense, as at the center of a black hole.”
If a singularity is infinite, this contradicts your claim that the singularity was caused by something else. So what are you saying now?

A function is a mathematical value, not necessarily a real thing. The equations produce a point of infinite density, it does not mean that the singularity is infinite. It has no dimensions, so most likely it is nothing.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
The Singularity is just the name of where the laws of physics breakdown, but not where the laws of logic break down. So logic can be used to explain how everything that came after the singularity came into existence.

No, logic is not subjective as I proved earlier in this thread. Is a hammer subjective? Of course not. Logic is the tool of science. How can you make testable observations without logical reasoning? Please explain, I am all ears.

ken: Just because something is logical, doesn’t mean it is accurate. Consider the scenario;

The week that family moved in next door, my home was burglarized.

Logic tells me the family next door was responsible for my house being burglarized; does this mean it is true?

Huh? How is that logical? There has to be a logical connection between the two events for there to be logical reasoning. That is what logical reasoning means. In fact, your scenario is the opposite of logical, it is illogical.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
No, God did not want death for humanity originally, it only came about because of our rebellion.

ken: So God in all of his wisdom created humans and animals with sex organs in order to reproduce and multiply, but he didn’t want anybody or anything to die? Do you see anything wrong with this bit of wisdom?

No, He did want animals to die so we would know what death was and also so His complex ecosystems on the earth would work, but not humans. He gave us the ability to learn to control our reproduction or learn to travel to other planets and populate them.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
So death is a necessary evil for the Christian worldview, but this is not true for atheistic worldview, it is actually a good thing for humanity as a whole.

ken: So death is necessary from a Christian perspective, but not from an atheistic perspective? Care to explain why?

No, death was not necessary originally only after we rebelled against Him then we had to die for our sins. But it definitely IS necessary for the atheistic evolutionist perspective as I have demonstrated earlier in this thread just for us to exist.