The problem of Objective Morality. and why even biblical speaking it is subjective

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quatona

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God also empirically demonstrated His existence to me, but I doubt you will accept that.
You can give it a try and describe how God went about this empirical demonstration to you. Sounds interesting.
But, yes, claiming to have been demonstrated something and being able to demonstrate it aren´t quite the same thing.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Objective morality is based on God's moral law. It does not change throughout history nor does it change because fringe groups who self-identify as Christians choose to ignore it.

For example, stealing out of greed to increase one's wealth is objectively evil. It has always been and always will be wrong. Even if the majority of so-called "Christian" denominations (anyone Christian or not can identify as Christian) ignored it and condoned it such thefts it would still be wrong.



Wearing mixed fabrics has never been a sin. The laws God gave to the ancient nation of Israel were for them only and no one else. If that law prohibited wearing mixed fabrics and they wore them they'd be guilty of the sin of disobedience and not be guilty of any sin related to wearing fabrics. People in other nations at the time who wore mixed fabrics would not have been guilty of any sin because it doesn't violate God's moral law.

Historical Christian churches (Catholic/Orthodox) believe some of the laws God gave to Israel (such as sodomy - men lying with men) were based upon God's moral law which means they consider them to be sinful for everyone at any time. That's the reason why Christians follow some of the Old Testament laws but not all of them.
The foundation of all moral law is the Ten Commandments. If something does not in some way relate to them then it is not moral law. It may be ceremonial or civil law in the OT. But those two categories were ended with the coming of Christ. Homosexual behavior ties into the law against adultery. In ancient Hebrew adultery can mean any sexual behavior outside of marriage. So homosexual behavior is forbidden by "You shall not commit adultery." Fabric laws were under the ceremonial law to symbolize purity.
 
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Ed1wolf

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With god, there is only obedience to perceived authority, and no morality.
No, only with God is there an objective morality based on His objectively existing moral character that exists outside humanity. Without God morality is subjective, ie it is based on the feelings of humans that exist within humanity and therefore cannot be objective.
 
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Ed1wolf

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There really needs to be something else. Because the universe does not contain an empirical God.
No, you misunderstood my statement. The empirically existing universe is the empirical evidence for the existence of God, just as your empirical existence is evidence for the existence of your great grandfather.
 
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Ken-1122

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It is not based on empirical fact. Whether it is or isn't a fact isn't something that can be determined empirically. I believe it is a fact, you do not because it isn't empirically demonstrated.

-CryptoLutheran
The definition of a fact is a claim that is indisputable. A quick look at the real world, and you will see no matter which God you choose, the claims of him are disputed by the vast majority of mankind; thus none of the claims of God are based on fact. Now just because a claim is not based on fact, does not mean it is not true; history shows us there has been many true claims that were disputed.

Again; do you know of any facts that cannot be demonstrated empirically?

Ken
 
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durangodawood

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No, you misunderstood my statement. The empirically existing universe is the empirical evidence for the existence of God, just as your empirical existence is evidence for the existence of your great grandfather.
No, we require a chain of reasoning to get from universe to God. Or we need an internal act of faith.

Neither are of those moves are "empirical" - which means presented directly to the senses without additional reasoning.
 
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Ken-1122

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No, you misunderstood my statement. The empirically existing universe is the empirical evidence for the existence of God, just as your empirical existence is evidence for the existence of your great grandfather.
If his great grandfather is no longer around thus cannot be tested or analyzed, there is no empirical evidence for his grandfather. There may be plenty of evidence that he at one time exited, but not empirical evidence.

Ken
 
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ViaCrucis

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The definition of a fact is a claim that is indisputable. A quick look at the real world, and you will see no matter which God you choose, the claims of him are disputed by the vast majority of mankind; thus none of the claims of God are based on fact. Now just because a claim is not based on fact, does not mean it is not true; history shows us there has been many true claims that were disputed.

Again; do you know of any facts that cannot be demonstrated empirically?

Ken

"Definition of fact
1 a :something that has actual existence
  • space exploration is now a fact
b :an actual occurrence
  • prove the fact of damage
2 :a piece of information presented as having objective reality
  • These are the hard facts of the case.
3 :the quality of being actual :actuality
  • a question of fact hinges on evidence
4 :a thing done: such as
a :crime
  • accessory after the fact
b archaic :action
c obsolete :feat
5 archaic :performance, doing"

Definition of FACT

We can use the word "fact" to mean something that is indisputably true; but the basic meaning is simply something that is actually true.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ken-1122

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"Definition of fact
1 a :something that has actual existence
  • space exploration is now a fact
b :an actual occurrence
  • prove the fact of damage
2 :a piece of information presented as having objective reality
  • These are the hard facts of the case.
3 :the quality of being actual :actuality
  • a question of fact hinges on evidence
4 :a thing done: such as
a :crime
  • accessory after the fact
b archaic :action
c obsolete :feat
5 archaic :performance, doing"

Definition of FACT

We can use the word "fact" to mean something that is indisputably true; but the basic meaning is simply something that is actually true.

-CryptoLutheran
If we go by the definition of "fact" that you provided, each of the examples provided can be empirically verified. Again; do you know of any facts that cannot be empirically verified?

Ken
 
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ViaCrucis

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If we go by the definition of "fact" that you provided, each of the examples provided can be empirically verified. Again; do you know of any facts that cannot be empirically verified?

Ken

Not any that can be demonstrated empirically.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Strathos

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Doubt on my part has never stopped you before, why should it now?

K

Because I know in advance the kind of answer you would give me. So it's easier to just save time and not go through the whole song and dance like I have with so many other atheists.
 
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