The problem of Objective Morality. and why even biblical speaking it is subjective

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Ken-1122

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True, but there is a large amount of evidence for His existence.
But there is far more evidence that points to his lack of existence.
Yeah, it is another example of how we are abandoning the Constitution, especially our First Amendment freedoms. Right now primarily in Democratically controlled states.
Doesn’t matter; my point is your God did not institute the US government to punish evil doers; especially when you consider this country was founded on slavery and other such evils.
You do understand how politicians work don't you? Since most of the German people considered themselves Christians, he had to pretend to be a good German Christian. If he had revealed his true feelings to the public he would never have been elected. But the fact is even from childhood he hated Christianity. His childhood friend August Kubizek said that when he was a youth he never went to mass even though his devout mother begged him to go with her. Then as an adult prior to becoming a politican he said "I myself am a heathen to the core." And after he became Fuerher he said in private that Christianity is a religion for slaves and that he hated the moral teachings of Christianity, according to Oxford historian Allan Bullock.
It doesn’t matter what Hitler said in private, or what he did as a child; I was refuting your claim that the Nazi’s taught the bible was full of errors and their rejection of the Bible is what lead to the Holocaust.
 
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stevevw

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Statutory rape is still rape.
It cannot really be regarded as rape because the proper meaning of rape is by force. Statutory rape says it is a nonforcible sexual act. The true meaning and wrong in what is called statutory rape are where an older person is seen as taking advantage of a younger person in a consensual sexual act. They regard the younger person not being able to understand what they are doing and therefore being taken advantage of. So in that sense, it is wrong anyway but not wrong as a rape act by definition.

In some common law jurisdictions, statutory rape is nonforcible sexual activity in which one of the individuals is below the age of consent (the age required to legally consent to the behaviour).
Statutory rape - Wikipedia

Still, we should be able to investigate the true intent of this law and whether it is justified. So as we can see the law is questioned about its logic as some underage people are mature enough to understand what is going on and some adults are not mature enough to know what is going on. The intent is to stop an adult taking advantage of a young person who is not capable of knowing what they are getting themselves into. In that sense it is wrong and we can apply the science to seeing how immature people can be taken advantage of by unscrupulous adults. This law would border on paedophilia because there will be an age limit that would make an adult guilty of paedophilia.

Rationale of statutory rape laws

Statutory rape laws are based on the premise that an individual is legally incapable of consenting to sexual intercourse until that person reaches a certain age. The law mandates that even if he or she willingly engages in sexual intercourse, the sex is not consensual.[13] Critics argue that an age limit cannot be used to determine the ability to consent to sex, since a young teenager might possess enough social sense to make informed and mature decisions about sex, while some adults might never develop the ability to make mature choices about sex, as even many mentally healthy individuals remain naive and easily manipulated throughout their lives.[14]
Statutory rape - Wikipedia

It doesn’t have to be spanking; if you physically restrain your child that is child abuse. If your child wants to go to his friend's house, and you physically prevent him from doing that, that is abuse. If he goes, and you lock the door so he can’t return, that is child neglect.
I am not sure of all the details of what is classed as an abuse or not but I am sure there will be some way of determining this. We use to think that belting a child was good and now we know it psychologically damages the child. So who knows what is regarded as Ok now will be determined as bad as well. There can also be rare exceptions just like killing in self-defence. If you restrain your child from running out onto the road and accidentally bruise them in doing so this is hardly child abuse. If you did not stop them it can be regarded as neglect or abuse so the exception can be made. But if you just grab your child in the headlock to stop them from leaving the house for no good reason then obviously thing is overdoing it and wrong.

When we look at each case we should be able to determine a logical and/or scientifically reasoned position. Some situations may be more difficult to determine at that time but that does not mean there is no determinable position to be found. We just have not found it yet and maybe with more investigation or scientific discovery.

Not everything that is put under the category of rape, abuse, or neglect should be put under those categories, and they are not all addressed by science. But even if they were, that doesn’t make it morally wrong.
Why not, if the act hurts the person and causes them to have a less quality of life, be traumatised, physically damaged, become depressed, anxious and scared of certain things which affect their quality of life why would that not be regarded as morally bad. Moral acts can only be done against humans and therefore it is logical that we measure moral acts by what is done to humans by the common logical standards we know about what makes a human happy or damaged.

When the virgin willfully allowed herself to be thrown into the volcano to appease the Gods, she was brainwashed into thinking she was sacrificing herself for a greater cause, and securing herself a ticket to paradise as well! How is this different?
A bit like the terrorist who straps bombs to themselves and blows up little children in the delusion of gaining 40 virgins when they meet Allah. The problem is this is a delusion and can be shown to be through the sciences. But also through the act contradicting their own beliefs as the thing that they claim will happen often does not happen and in fact, the opposite happens. IE Terrorist blows up their own people without discrimination and they also do the things they are blowing others up for which shows it is not really about right and wrong. This religious acts are not based in reality and can be dangerous thinking just like a mentally ill person can believe that they can fly when jumping off a building.

It doesn’t matter if it is a child or an adult; any type of human sacrifice for religious purposes is WRONG!!! Do you agree?
A father who sacrifices his life to save his son from drowning is not wrong because the greater act of saving a life is a greater moral right. When people sacrifice babies to gods to appease them this can be seen as a delusion gone too far. There is no logical reason for it that can be justified. You cannot prove that the god is there or will be appeased to justify taking a child's life. But you can see logically how a father or person will give their life to save their child. There are biological and psychological reasons that cause a parent to protect their offspring.

Soldiers don’t sacrifice their lives for their country, as a matter of fact, they get specialized training and equipment to make sure they don’t die!
So what about when a soldier goes into a situation that is determined to be too high a risk to save his buddies. What about a father who runs into a burning building to save his child.
 
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Ken-1122

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Why not, if the act hurts the person and causes them to have a less quality of life, be traumatised, physically damaged, become depressed, anxious and scared of certain things which affect their quality of life why would that not be regarded as morally bad.
Per the examples I gave before, everything that is put under the category of rape or abuse does not hurt, traumatize, or cause pany type of damage to a person

A bit like the terrorist who straps bombs to themselves and blows up little children in the delusion of gaining 40 virgins when they meet Allah. The problem is this is a delusion and can be shown to be through the sciences.
What about a man like Jesus, brainwashed into believing he is actually the son of God and sacrificing himself for the good of mankind? What do you think science would say about that?

A father who sacrifices his life to save his son from drowning is not wrong because the greater act of saving a life is a greater moral right. When people sacrifice babies to gods to appease them this can be seen as a delusion gone too far. There is no logical reason for it that can be justified. You cannot prove that the god is there or will be appeased to justify taking a child's life. But you can see logically how a father or person will give their life to save their child. There are biological and psychological reasons that cause a parent to protect their offspring.

So what about when a soldier goes into a situation that is determined to be too high a risk to save his buddies. What about a father who runs into a burning building to save his child.
Do you know the difference between risking your life vs sacrificing your life?
 
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Ed1wolf

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And how do you know those who wrote the ancient documents of Genesis were being truthful?

Because many things in Genesis have been confirmed by science and archaeology. Especially now that the BB theory has been confirmed.

ken: Animals will eat many times their weight in food over a 100 day period, thus most of the animals on the Ark would have to be for food. But the bible doesn’t say anything about most of the animals on board being used for food, does it.

Many of them may have been in hibernation so that they would not have to eat as much. The story in Genesis does not cover every single detail.

ken: Why did the Ocean became more salty, but not the lakes?
Because over time most of the salt in the river channels and lake bottoms gets washed into the ocean, did you even read the article?

ken; But the bible doesn't say he made visible two great lights; it says he made two great lights. Are you claiming the bible translation is wrong?
The Hebrew words can mean both, most Hebrew words have broader meanings than english. God's other book, Nature, has shown us that, yes, that translation is probably wrong.
 
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Ed1wolf

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Trying to get moral standards from the ToE is like trying to get groceries from a car wash. You would have to be seriously confused about its purpose.
Yes, that is just one of the serious philosophical problems with the Nazis, and other atheistic and humanistic based societies.
 
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Strathos

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Yes, that is just one of the serious philosophical problems with the Nazis, and other atheistic and humanistic based societies.

I don't know a single atheist who claims to get their morals from the ToE.
 
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Ken-1122

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Because many things in Genesis have been confirmed by science and archaeology. Especially now that the BB theory has been confirmed.
But more things in Genesis has been confirmed as false by science.
Many of them may have been in hibernation so that they would not have to eat as much. The story in Genesis does not cover every single detail.
Most animals don't hibernate.
Because over time most of the salt in the river channels and lake bottoms gets washed into the ocean, did you even read the article?
How does this happen with lakes that are thousands of miles from the ocean?
The Hebrew words can mean both, most Hebrew words have broader meanings than english. God's other book, Nature, has shown us that, yes, that translation is probably wrong.
I'm not talking about Hebrew words, I'm asking is it your claim that the Bible has been improperly translated into English?
 
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Ken-1122

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Yes, that is just one of the serious philosophical problems with the Nazis, and other atheistic and humanistic based societies.
As I pointed out to you before, if the Nazi's had Christian inscriptions on their uniforms, and the leader (Hitler) of the Nazi party was in good standings with the Catholic Church until his death, that should at least be a hint to you that the Nazi's were not an atheist based society.
 
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Strathos

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As I pointed out to you before, if the Nazi's had Christian inscriptions on their uniforms, and the leader (Hitler) of the Nazi party was in good standings with the Catholic Church until his death, that should at least be a hint to you that the Nazi's were not an atheist based society.

The Nazis had their own mythology and used any religion they could including paganism and Christianity to try to advance their agenda.
 
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Ed1wolf

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But there is far more evidence that points to his lack of existence.
Fraid not.

ken: Doesn’t matter; my point is your God did not institute the US government to punish evil doers; especially when you consider this country was founded on slavery and other such evils.

The people that form the governments that God commands don't always follow His laws because we are all sinners. I am not sure it was founded ON slavery but it was founded with slavery being allowed. There were many founders that from the beginning questioned slavery but never did anything about ending it. You need to remember almost all nations had slaves at the time of the founding of the US. But the US treated its slaves better than most countries at the time and then ended it sooner than most countries in the world.

ken: It doesn’t matter what Hitler said in private, or what he did as a child; I was refuting your claim that the Nazi’s taught the bible was full of errors and their rejection of the Bible is what lead to the Holocaust.
No, you were claiming that Hitler was a Christian and I refuted it. Most Germans at that point in history WERE theological liberals and did not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. Theological liberalism was invented in Germany. Ever hear of Friederich Schleiermacher and Rudolf Bultmann? And this was 100 years before the Nazis came to power. The German establishment had been theologically liberal for at least 50 years before the Nazis came into existence. This led to the ordinary Germans eventually becoming theologically liberal before WWII. Read the book "Twisted Cross". The German churches especially the protestants believed that the bible had been corrupted by the jews, so anything they thought came from the jews was in error. This combined with their evolutionary view of religion caused them to reject biblical inerrancy. So there was no longer an objective moral standard revealed by God so basically all things became permissible including human slaughter.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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I don't know a single atheist who claims to get their morals from the ToE.


I do in a way.

We have evolved a fight flight system for "evil" life threatening stimuli and a relaxation response for "good" life promoting circumstances. Likewise with food, we have "yum" versus "yuck" for good tastes and bad ones, which indicate benifit or harm. With social stress we have a cortisol system (bad), but in opposition we have bonding and trust mediated by the oxytocin system (good). And the pleasure pain dualism.

So our biopsychology is the basis for the development of our basic moral categories. Of good and evil.

Add the capacity language and expression of these states of affairs, and we have the development of a system of vocalized morality.

Which "attracts" us to Being - such that the beliefs about and vocalisations of "good" when ordered in an objectively correct way with the environment is like a feedback loop from heaven. Good things, good life, "good" morals, good time...

Yet there are limits to this system, just as there are limits to life and survival. Objective constraints.

Flourishing, health, well being .... it is rational to prefer, in that there is reasoning fitting to thinking about and selecting or willing such states of affairs. So we traverse space time with a pre-given scheme of purpose. No scheme, no dream.



So morality may have evolved, and terms like "goods" and "evils" serve to promote human interests. The issue being we're only 100 years on from Darwin, and neuroscience is fresher still, so the philosophers haven't had much time to reflect. IIRC from reading up on the issue, even the existentialists like Sartre, who knew about Darwin, thought it too early to theorize about any links.

Call this subjective or objective, but whatz the point?

"Hey I'm a philosopher!"

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Ed1wolf

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I don't know a single atheist who claims to get their morals from the ToE.
Look up Social Darwinism, Sociobiology, origin of altruism, E.O. Wilson, and Richard Dawkins. Almost all atheists I have ever talked to believe that our morals come from evolution.
 
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Ed1wolf

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In order for morality to be objective, it would require a base; and this moral base cannot be capable of thoughts or beliefs; otherwise morality would simply be subjective to the thoughts and beliefs of this moral base.
Exactly, morality is based on the objectively existing character of God.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Look up Social Darwinism, Sociobiology, origin of altruism, E.O. Wilson, and Richard Dawkins. Almost all atheists I have ever talked to believe that our morals come from evolution.

The belief that we get our empathy from evolution, like most atheists I know believe, is not connected to social darwinism. It's an entirely different thing. I personally don't know any atheist that's espoused social darwinism.

And the belief that we get our empathy through evolution has nothing to do with what actions we deem "good" or "bad". Those are separate as well.
 
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