The problem of evil

[SteveB28]

It's universal. We all have (invisible) ticking time bombs inside of us. For some it goes off when they are 2, for others when they are 92.

And the religious would claim that their God is capable of defusing the bomb.

But he stands aside.

 

[TreasureHunter12]

Regarding the free-will conversation:

Free-will doesn't imply evil and suffering; free-will allows for a non-intervening creator. There can be free-will without evil and suffering.

Evil and suffering are for the purpose of exercising faith. It provides the resistance, motivation, and pressure to allow us to choose the riskier, less clear option.

 

[ScottA]

It seems to me the problem of evil is a real problem, and it is my main barrier to faith. I just have trouble believing in a benevolent creator that cares about people- I see no evidence for it in this world. There is gross unfairness and suffering in the world and I don't believe Christians can account for it.

I grant that I could be wrong, that somehow there is a God in charge of it all and its just like the Christian God and is beyond my understanding. But it would be pretty cruel for such a being to hold honest doubts against me, given the quality of evidence he's left.

And honestly, if it is the case that God exists and he has such a mysterious plan, what does that say about Christian epistemology? How could we take any religious authority seriously if God's will is so inscrutable? It seems to me much more skepticism of religious claims are warranted, regardless of whether or not the Christian God exists.

You have voiced the mystery of the ages quite well.

However, there is a reason that things are the way they are. As you say, it is as if there is no evidence of God in the world - well, perhaps depending on how you look at it. It is easy to be skeptical and even pessimistic. But - here's the thing: What is not easy to perceive from the midst of ones trying life, is that the perfect plan of God needs to be equal for all generations. So...everyone from every time in history has had the same struggle - as you. History repeats itself. And it is all on purpose.

Each person is given an [equal] opportunity to curse and have their metal tested...and if you have it in you to perceive that "There is a God!"...then you'll get through it.

But this is a BIG subject...so you walk it out over a lifetime, read up on it...and at anytime you get the least amount of confidence for doing so...then pray to God that He guide you through the jungle. Hence, David's psalm:

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. Psalm 23:4

 

[Noxot]

Is there no freedom in heaven? Is there evil in heaven? Will two year olds be dying of painful cancers in heaven just because they break a rule they don't understand?

yes there is freedom in heaven, without freedom goodness and love is not possible. there is not evil in heaven because to be evil is hell. no you don't have that kind of body in heaven as a body is more like a mind, but the rule breaking things sounds more like authoritarian human structures rooted in hell than it sounds like God.

maybe they die because it would be better than having to go through an entire life of this world, God is the one that sees all the possible and likely outcomes, not I. maybe some angels hardly need a human experience and going through life for 2 years was all they needed to learn what they needed.

 

[Davian]

You have voiced the mystery of the ages quite well.

However, there is a reason that things are the way they are. As you say, it is as if there is no evidence of God in the world - well, perhaps depending on how you look at it. It is easy to be skeptical and even pessimistic.

As it is easy to make unevidenced religious assertions.

But - here's the thing: What is not easy to perceive from the midst of ones trying life, is that the perfect plan of God needs to be equal for all generations. So...everyone from every time in history has had the same struggle - as you. History repeats itself. And it is all on purpose.

As if gods are only human constructs, a product of the imagination.

Each person is given an [equal] opportunity to curse and have their metal tested...and if you have it in you to perceive that "There is a God!"...then you'll get through it.

But this is a BIG subject...so you walk it out over a lifetime, read up on it...and at anytime you get the least amount of confidence for doing so...then pray to God that He guide you through the jungle. Hence, David's psalm:

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. Psalm 23:4

Religion as a comfort blanket? If that works for you...

 

[fhansen]

But it doesn't just mean we all have our limitations: at least, it doesn't if you hold that someone planned it to be this way. If you hold that belief, there follow some implications about the nature of that Planner. Not very nice implications.

My point is simply that the Planner gave his world complete freedom, for better or worse. Parameters, boundaries, limitations within which that freedom plays itself out are necessarily inherent in the fact that the players involved are finite, created beings.

 

[Picky Picky]

My point is simply that the Planner gave his world complete freedom, for better or worse. Parameters, boundaries, limitations within which that freedom plays itself out are necessarily inherent in the fact that the players involved are finite, created beings.

This line really leaves me baffled. Is it not the case that if this world and its contents are Planned, "the parameters, boundaries, limitations within which that freedom plays itself out" (which is a euphemistic reference to the savagery, violence and suffering of the natural world) are created by the Planner? Or are we blaming wild carnivorous animals for choosing to use their "complete freedom" to rip the meat out of other animals?

 

[Noxot]

it is our fault that the animals are so savage now. in their hypostasis in eternity they were never this mean. after the universe leaked through the crack in eternity lesser realities were born from the fall that happened in eternity.

as higher realities leak into this universe the universe shall transform and be completed. that is why intelligent life is starting to happen in this universe. it is an alteration and progression of spirit.

 

[quatona]

it is our fault that the animals are so savage now.

As in "my fault"? When I was born I think they were already so savage.

 

[Noxot]

As in "my fault"? When I was born I think they were already so savage.

well yeah to be born here we have to have bodies.

 

[quatona]

well yeah to be born here we have to have bodies.

Not that this in any way answered my point, but agreed so far.

 

[Noxot]

Not that this in any way answered my point, but agreed so far.

the preexistence of souls means that before you existed in this world you already existed somewhere else. the other of God/infinite mind would be his children, the divine ideas or seeds or images of him. therefore I say that something happened somewhere else that caused this universe to be how it is. so if something other than God has an influence on how reality can be then we can't just automatically blame God for how things are.

 

[quatona]

the preexistence of souls means that before you existed in this world you already existed somewhere else. the other of God/infinite mind would be his children, the divine ideas or seeds or images of him. therefore I say that something happened somewhere else that caused this universe to be how it is. so if something other than God has an influence on how reality can be then we can't just automatically blame God for how things are.

Be that as it may...but you just blamed me.

 

[Noxot]

Be that as it may...but you just blamed me.

why did you do it? lets get some supraconscious freudian slips in this bizzy

 

[quatona]

why did you do it?

Why did I do what?

 

[Noxot]

Why did I do what?

I blamed you and then I asked you why you did what you think God did.

how would you feel if you decided to be part of this world rather than feeling that you were forced to exist in this world? what is the problem with this world? the bible said that creation was subject to vanity in hope. what is more vain than this universe? what is more vain than animals coming to life if they end up dying?

but I tried to give answers why things are like they are. two important things about what reality is is that the Son of God was crucified and that he rose again. this reality is some kind of very intense and obsessive expression/play of divine and eternal love.

 

[quatona]

I blamed you and then I asked you why you did what you think God did.

Why I did what?
I don´t think God did do anything. I didn´t even mention "God". I merely asked you how you can possibly blamed me for something that obviously happened before I was even born.

how would you feel if you decided to be part of this world rather than feeling that you were forced to exist in this world?

Both notions are alien to me, sorry. I can´t make sense of this question.

what is the problem with this world?

Do you think there´s a problem with this world?

the bible said that creation was subject to vanity in hope. what is more vain than this universe? what is more vain than animals coming to life if they end up dying?

Colour me confused. Over in the other thread you just emphasized that this world is important. I can´t reconcile this statement with the above paragraph.

 

[Loudmouth]

It's universal. We all have (invisible) ticking time bombs inside of us.

And God can't do anything about it?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

And God can't do anything about it?

Gods are omnipotent only when it suits their adherents. Most of the time omnipotence is swept under the rug as inconvenient.

 

[Loudmouth]

You have voiced the mystery of the ages quite well.

However, there is a reason that things are the way they are. As you say, it is as if there is no evidence of God in the world - well, perhaps depending on how you look at it. It is easy to be skeptical and even pessimistic. But - here's the thing: What is not easy to perceive from the midst of ones trying life, is that the perfect plan of God needs to be equal for all generations. So...everyone from every time in history has had the same struggle - as you. History repeats itself. And it is all on purpose.

Each person is given an [equal] opportunity to curse and have their metal tested...and if you have it in you to perceive that "There is a God!"...then you'll get through it.

How is a person's metal tested when they die of cancer at 2 years old?