The problem of evil

[com7fy8]

I find it hard to believe Jesus condoned or rationalized injustice.

He doesn't. But I'm a human; I started off selfish. It is taking my whole lifetime to get a clue. And ones around me, I keep discovering, aren't; so how much can I as just a human do . . . in spite of my own self, included????? But I am finding that we do have God and He does help us actually do some good . . . but not only changing a system so selfish people can have their pleasures and security, but so we can find out how to love as family while becoming like Jesus (Romans 8:29) so pleasing to our Father . . . for after this world. This is not the final picture, here!

How do you suppose, by the way, DNA molecules and natural selection made me like me like I am and experience, now, and you like you???? . . . the same molecules making ones so different. Squirrels aren't into being concerned about this stuff. Why aren't we just hunting and gathering and having sex? In my case, God is doing me much better good, and He is much more satisfying. And one kiss in love with my lady friend is very more satisfying, though not as good as God. Love makes it easy to have self control with her and be fully satisfied with a kiss with her smile. So, now I'm getting homesick.

Nor was he oblivious to the fact people were physical beings.

I would say that we are not only physical. So, He emphasizes and specializes in dealing with how we are in our character which can be a very bad dictator of how we are, react, and choose.

I'm not Joseph. I live an existence that feels disempowered and beyond irrelevant. I'm not some advisor to a king.

But Joseph did not start as the Pharoah's advisor. Even while he was a slave and put in prison when he did not try to rape his owner's wife, he was faithful to God then. And that is what worked so he became the king's advisor.

He didn't just feel disemboweled; his own brothers had betrayed him into slavery, and even kept their father suffering for years, thinking Joseph had been killed. He had brothers like that, not only politicians and church people who wouldn't get a clue about his ideas. But when he was in power to do all he might please to those brothers, he went after reconciliation with them.

He stayed ready to love and share as family, through it all, or after learning, I can see.

What are we ready for, then? What do we have hope for? God is able, but we need to be getting ready

Look at what happens with people and rain > rain is good, but ones treat it like it is bad, and because of this they stay ready to be depressed whenever it rains . . . when we can enjoy those wet kisses on our cheeks and smell the nice scent when it rains. So, even with good things, people because of their character can condemn even what is good, not being ready for all that can be good, and actually condemning what we already have which is good.

I'll give you some credit for making the effort to understand me, in that regards you are doing better than most I have talked to.

I still need to learn better how to feel for others; so thank you for the reminder that I need to do this

because people go after the material stuff, instead of discovering how to love, they suffer evil. The Bible says that loving money is at the root of all sorts of evil.

I wonder how all those believers who spastically consume feel about that. Maybe they didn't get the memo?

They got it, but our character can filter things to mean what we want, or can filter things simply o-u-t, if they don't suit our purpose. And people can consume other people, and even so waste their own selves.

I simply wanted to know if your god planned everything, and if your god is Omni-everything.

You aren't directly asking me this. I trust that God is in control of all. And I simply have that He is good, though He has not done away all evil. I know it is not the same thing, but I offer how nature has so much which is for life, yet there is killing included in life going on. But ones don't judge nature as being unfair. But ones might argue that not so much can be expected of nature, as should be expected of God who is almighty and unlimited. Understood.

But I do find He is good. And He has done me much more good than I have to myself or anyone. And I simply know there is evil, but also God. Why? Because He has proven Himself to me. Why me? I don't deserve it, more than anyone else. I understand it is His will, and He is not done with us humans. So, I do what He has me do, as well as He blesses me to, with hope for however He yet will do good for others, and however I can be involved in this.

Could you advise if you are able to choose something which is not in the plan? Can you upset the plan?

Nope > you can consider what happened to Joseph, in Genesis 37-50 > how that turned out to be used by God for much more good than all which Joseph lost. And Jesus lost so much because of what people did to Him on Calvary, but God has used that for much benefit for various people. So, evil can't cancel God. He may not take it out of existence, but it can't do Him in.

Evil is partly a design play, by the way, to keep people from having God and hope; so it is wise not to let evil succeed. Compared to God, it is . . . simply defeated and on its way to the flaming sewer. It is like Lyme's disease ticks; you just need to not go where they are or become how they would have you become. You can live free of how it would control you, but have compassion . . . not isolation and retreat.

And yet, he has supposedly created heaven - a place where free will abounds, but evil is absent.

I have always understood, that in Heaven we will be fully God's way, with only His will in effect. But, yes, evil is absent. But Satan has been there, and Heaven wasn't good enough for him, of all things. Like this, there are humans who would not be satisfied with Heaven itself. If we can't appreciate God here, because of our nature, our dictatorial character could likewise make us contrary to enjoying God in Heaven!! Satan had such perfect circumstances, in Heaven, with all the loving there; yet, because of how he is, Heaven was not good enough for him.

But, with God, here, we can be content; enough can be enough . . . not how certain people never can be satisfied sexually, for only one example > and so it is that there can be evil, here . . . partly because of how enough is not enough for a number of people. Our real evil, then, is our spiritual nature of not being able to be satisfied, here or in Heaven.

This shows that evil is not a necessary result of free will.

understood But I believe there is not human free will in Heaven . . . or ones would be getting thrown out, because of the human dissatisfaction which comes with humans' way of free will.

Why could he have not installed the same conditions 'on earth as in heaven'?

Like I offer > look at how we can be not satisfied and appreciative of the good which we do have. Again > even rain, a good thing, can be condemned wholesalely by humans . . . just one example. This is because of the spirit of evil > Ephesians 2:2 < which works in a person's ego.

Even physically, there is so much more good than evil; yet, look at how humans focus on the evil and let it decide how they are and how they see things and where their attention goes. The sun keeps shining, though. But, yes, I understand the sun is inanimate, but God is conscious and so ones expect He would do away with the evil. But I believe He is processing evil and its spirit to where He will keep it . . . in the flaming sewer for pride and hate and nasty anger and bitterness and unforgiveness and frustration and unbelief, and dominating and dictatorial and discontented drives for pleasure; so don't be a bucket for taking this stuff there!!

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

 

[SteveB28]

Gobbledegook...

 

[Noxot]

evil exist because freedom makes it possible. without freedom there can be no love. the purpose of evil is to reject it. this world and being a mortal creature is a hard game to play sometimes. but we would not be here unless we decided to play it. to be created good is to have goodness as an accidental quality. but to be good of your own freedom is a higher type of goodness than merely being created good. therefore freedom is good even if it has the possibility to create evil. God thought it would be worth it. what power this freedom we have has, for not even God can make us love himself or make us do right or make us believe in or have faith in him.

what will you be when you don't know who you are? without compulsion of who you are, what will you do? as a creature and a small body with limited capacity how shall you be and what will you make of yourself?

heaven is made by God along with his good souls. hell is made without God by rejecting goodness.

heaven can not have evil in it because when you turn evil there is no heaven, there is hell. so heaven is a state of being. we exist in the spiritual world and have influences of both evil spirits and good spirits which helps our own self to grow and develop. whatever we choose is what we will dwell around and become.

 

[SteveB28]

More gobbledegook....

 

[Noxot]

More gobbledegook....

how so?

if you really what gookymarlarky then I can give that:

 

[Resha Caner]

It's 23 centuries since Epicurus posed the question, and nobody has answered it. Including Jesus.

What answers have you looked at?

 

[durangodawood]

OK... so we cant have freewill without a little evil in the world. Fine.

But do we really need zika virus causing horrible birth defects?

 

[fhansen]

And yet, he has supposedly created heaven - a place where free will abounds, but evil is absent. This shows that evil is not a necessary result of free will. Why could he have not installed the same conditions 'on earth as in heaven'?

The will is moved by and oriented towards that which it perceives to be the greatest good; it likes what it likes. In heaven the will is completely satisfied-everything that it can desire is present. In this life we experience both good and evil daily-and decide for ourselves on a continuous basis which option out of many is the best-what is good, what is evil, for us. We may determine that beheading infidels is a good. Or raping one's enemy, or gossiping about ones neighbor, or feeding the hungry or healing the sick or lounging all day on the couch with beer, chips, and TV at our disposal-whatever. We make small and large choices everyday that reflect our state-whether we, in this life, are oriented towards the true good, most fully defined by the term "love", or whether we value other things more: power, possessions, wealth, pleasure, etc, enough to make us compromise the way we treat our neighbor perhaps.

And while there can be many extenuating circumstances that may condition or mitigate one's culpability, by and large we're morally responsible beings, we don't have to behead, or gossip; we can have a change of heart. So here we're tested, so to speak. Do we choose good over evil? Do we choose love-and practice it? Have we already oriented ourselves in this life, the best we can with the lot we've been given, towards the true good-with absolute, perfect, uncompromised, and overwhelming goodness, i.e. "heaven", being the reward?

Our own justice is challenged and refined here- so that we'll own it. That's not an unreasonable demand.

 

[Soyeong]

A god claimed to be perfect love and goodness? Or some other sort of god?

In order to be perfectly fair, God would have to create us all in some sort of stasis field where we would have no change of experience because any change would be unfair. I do not see how the characteristics of being good and loving imply perfectly fair.

 

[Picky Picky]

The will is moved by and oriented towards that which it perceives to be the greatest good; it likes what it likes. In heaven the will is completely satisfied-everything that it can desire is present. In this life we experience both good and evil daily-and decide for ourselves on a continuous basis which option out of many is the best-what is good, what is evil, for us. We may determine that beheading infidels is a good. Or raping one's enemy, or gossiping about ones neighbor, or feeding the hungry or healing the sick or lounging all day on the couch with beer, chips, and TV at our disposal-whatever. We make small and large choices everyday that reflect our state-whether we, in this life, are oriented towards the true good, most fully defined by the term "love", or whether we value other things more: power, possessions, wealth, pleasure, etc, enough to make us compromise the way we treat our neighbor perhaps.

And while there can be many extenuating circumstances that may condition or mitigate one's culpability, by and large we're morally responsible beings, we don't have to behead, or gossip; we can have a change of heart. So here we're tested, so to speak. Do we choose good over evil? Do we choose love-and practice it? Have we already oriented ourselves in this life, the best we can with the lot we've been given, towards the true good-with absolute, perfect, uncompromised, and overwhelming goodness, i.e. "heaven", being the reward?

Our own justice is challenged and refined here- so that we'll own it. That's not an unreasonable demand.

Those creatures which are torn apart and eaten by others in God's design for the world: is their justice being challenged and refined?

 

[Noxot]

evil creates evil in reality and goodness creates goodness. freedom is something before being, it is not free will. being is goodness and evil is its degeneration, distortion, and death. so this reality, because of evil, is not perfect. the universe was birthed out of a fall in the greater spiritual reality. it reflects inner realities of our selves.

 

[fhansen]

Those creatures which are torn apart and eaten by others in God's design for the world: is their justice being challenged and refined?

Nope-I'm speaking of moral evil, aka "sin", of course, where human choices are involved. We recognize intuitively the difference: natural or physical evils and tragedies are evil because of the harm they do and moral evil is evil for that same reason but also because we know that the humans involved could've chosen to do otherwise-which makes it "more evil" to us in one sense. The problem of evil either way is not at all an easy one. We believe in any case that all evil is temporary-that goodness alone will reign in the end. And that God, himself, wasn't above experiencing the suffering of the very evils that beset the inhabitants of this world.

 

[fhansen]

Could you advise if you are able to choose something which is not in the plan? Can you upset the plan?

Yes, that's what makes the will free, otherwise free will has no meaning. Sin can be defined as opposition to the will of God.

 

[Picky Picky]

Nope-I'm speaking of moral evil, aka "sin", of course, where human choices are involved. We recognize intuitively the difference: natural or physical evils and tragedies are evil because of the harm they do and moral evil is evil for that same reason but also because we know that the humans involved could've chosen to do otherwise-which makes it "more evil" to us in one sense. The problem of evil either way is not at all an easy one. We believe in any case that all evil is temporary-that goodness alone will reign in the end. And that God, himself, wasn't above experiencing the suffering of the very evils that beset the inhabitants of this world.

But the distinction between these two kinds of suffering (those caused by man and those not caused by man) is not relevant to the question asked in the OP: Why is there so much suffering in the world? The introduction of free will, sin, satan, the Fall, etc., to the answer just obfuscates. The living world is full of suffering, endemic to its whole existence. If there is a Creator, he has created, either by choice or by constraint, a system whereby suffering is the everyday experience of the mass of sentient living creatures. If he is free, he could perfectly well have created a world where humans are free to "have their justice challenged and refined" if that's how he sees it, but where the rest of the living world is not. Why not?

 

[SteveB28]

The will is moved by and oriented towards that which it perceives to be the greatest good; it likes what it likes. In heaven the will is completely satisfied-everything that it can desire is present. In this life we experience both good and evil daily-and decide for ourselves on a continuous basis which option out of many is the best-what is good, what is evil, for us. We may determine that beheading infidels is a good. Or raping one's enemy, or gossiping about ones neighbor, or feeding the hungry or healing the sick or lounging all day on the couch with beer, chips, and TV at our disposal-whatever. We make small and large choices everyday that reflect our state-whether we, in this life, are oriented towards the true good, most fully defined by the term "love", or whether we value other things more: power, possessions, wealth, pleasure, etc, enough to make us compromise the way we treat our neighbor perhaps.

And while there can be many extenuating circumstances that may condition or mitigate one's culpability, by and large we're morally responsible beings, we don't have to behead, or gossip; we can have a change of heart. So here we're tested, so to speak. Do we choose good over evil? Do we choose love-and practice it? Have we already oriented ourselves in this life, the best we can with the lot we've been given, towards the true good-with absolute, perfect, uncompromised, and overwhelming goodness, i.e. "heaven", being the reward?

Our own justice is challenged and refined here- so that we'll own it. That's not an unreasonable demand.

Who is responsible for babies born without brains? Who is responsible for famines that starve millions of children? Who is responsible for childhood cancer?

You talk about choices and decisions. Who chose those hideous things?

 

[fhansen]

But the distinction between these two kinds of suffering (those caused by man and those not caused by man) is not relevant to the question asked in the OP: Why is there so much suffering in the world? The introduction of free will, sin, satan, the Fall, etc., to the answer just obfuscates. The living world is full of suffering, endemic to its whole existence. If there is a Creator, he has created, either by choice or by constraint, a system whereby suffering is the everyday experience of the mass of sentient living creatures. If he is free, he could perfectly well have created a world where humans are free to "have their justice challenged and refined" if that's how he sees it, but where the rest of the living world is not. Why not?

Yes, there are no perfect, pat answers to the problem of evil. This universe, man and beast and the elements, are radically free to operate as they will, within only whatever physical constraints exist for them. Only man has the power to constrain himself in the moral sphere. We're the hands of god here; we play god-or the devil-or something inbetween.

 

[fhansen]

Who is responsible for babies born without brains? Who is responsible for famines that starve millions of children? Who is responsible for childhood cancer?

You talk about choices and decisions. Who chose those hideous things?

I responded to your question about free will and why it reportedly doesn't cause sin in heaven.

 

[Picky Picky]

Yes, there are no perfect, pat answers to the problem of evil. This universe, man and beast and the elements, are radically free to operate as they will, within only whatever physical constraints exist for them. Only man has the power to constrain himself in the moral sphere. We're the hands of god here; we play god-or the devil-or something inbetween.

I suggest you mean "whatever physical constraints have been imposed on them by their Creator". The suggestion that man and beast are free to operate as they will is somewhat disingenuous. When the wolf rips the belly from the sheep, neither is radically free to operate as it wishes.

 

[TreasureHunter12]

Wait a minute... suffering is because of the weakness of our sinning? I find this belief repulsive. I know plenty of people that have suffered for no apparent reason, and I can't think of any sins they did to deserve their suffering.

Christians often misunderstand what "sin" is exactly. They associate it with behavior but it is deeper than that; it is more like a contamination of our human nature. Morality is not a solution to the problem.

 

[TreasureHunter12]

9 million children die each year before the age of five. I have a hard time believing, they all deserved it.

The current reality that we all share is harsh and often repulsive. We shouldn't continue to accept the status quo.