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The Problem of Evil

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by dhh712, Mar 19, 2014.

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  1. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

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    So why not make Earth like Heaven?
     
  2. bhsmte

    bhsmte Newbie

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    Christians would have nothing to look forward to then. You need the carrot, to help sell the story.
     
  3. Jeremy E Walker

    Jeremy E Walker Active Member

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    Various reasons.

    Unbelief is one of these reasons.

    Those who have cancer and deny God exists, or believe He exists but hate Him do not generally ask God to cure their cancer.

    Some believe in God and have cancer and ask Him to cure it but He does not cure it. God has a specific plan for humanity and this plan entails that some people are not cured from cancer even if they want to be.

    God has a specific plan for humanity and this plan entails that for the most part, life is ordered according to certain laws that have been established by God. If a person smokes cigarettes all of their life knowing that they have an increased chance of getting cancer, and then do, then pray to God to cure them and then get mad when He does not, then the person is just being a big baby, crying and whining that they cannot have everything the way they want it.

    If a person has sex with whoever will give it to them whenever they can get it, and then get an STD and then pray to God to heal them and He does not, then they again, are just attempting to use God like they have used others to get what they want.

    God is not bound to bow down and cater to the sinful desires of fallen man or to be there every time you want something.

    So this is one reason why many are not cured of their ailments.

    A loving father does not give their child everything the child asks for. The father knows what's best.

    As I stated, those that do rely in and trust in God's mercy realize that either way it goes, they will one day die. This is inescapable. So even when God does not answer their prayers in the precise manner they would have desired, they still trust Him to do what is right.

    Ok?



    And you should expect Him to. He is even now throughout the world.

    The testimonies of literally millions exist to bear this out.

    As long as you remain in unbelief, you cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven.



    I think you know the answer to both of these. The fact that you are asking such questions causes me to question why you are asking them.
     
  4. ToddNotTodd

    ToddNotTodd Iconoclast

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    So it's an unloving plan... gotcha...

    How about an actual baby, crying and whining as it dies of ebola in a remote jungle? Is the baby getting what it deserves? Never mind, plenty of Christians I've talked to believe that the baby actually is getting what it deserves.

    If I were omnipotent, why wouldn't I give my child everything it asks for? Like when my seven year old is in pain, why wouldn't I relieve that pain if I could?
     
  5. andy b

    andy b Newbie Supporter

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    for me its yin and yang or night and day for a physical world to exist maybe there needs to be both good and bad for life to exist.
     
  6. andy b

    andy b Newbie Supporter

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  7. quatona

    quatona "God"? What do you mean??

    +4,189
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    That leaves us with the question "Why the heck would God want a physical world to exist?"
     
  8. quatona

    quatona "God"? What do you mean??

    +4,189
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    ...but you have no idea how it possibly could be?
     
  9. Jeremy E Walker

    Jeremy E Walker Active Member

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    [​IMG]

    Non-sequitur.

    And they would be wrong. Just because a Christian has a view about something, it does not follow that that view is biblical.

    A man died and stood before God and God asks the man why he did not believe in Him and the man replies. "you did not help the suffering babies who were dying from ebola!" God replies, "remember the first time you read about the plight of these children and how you felt a sense of compassion for them?" The man replies, "yes." God then says, "I had arranged for you to personally be able to help in alleviating these children's suffering by giving you the money and the means to help them, but you were too concerned about arguing with a Christian on an internet forum and the window of opportunity came and went. Since you found the children unworthy of your time effort and money, I sent my own followers to help these children and even now, after your death, they are giving their lives, effort, time and money for the sake of these children. So you see, it was you who was evil in not helping when you could have. I wanted to give you the awesome privilege of being able to see a sick child recover and go on to grow up and know that you had a part in it. But you rejected the opportunity. You rejected it because you did not love them."


    This Todd, is what you need to think long and hard about.



    If your child asks you for a loaded gun or a cup of rat poison you would not give it to them.

    What have you done to alleviate the pain of children suffering from ebola?
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2014
  10. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

    +5,954
    Agnostic
    Then God is immoral. It is immoral to require a child to worship you before you will cure them of a painful and life threatening disease.

    Why would you have to ask?

    [qutoe]Some believe in God and have cancer and ask Him to cure it but He does not cure it. God has a specific plan for humanity and this plan entails that some people are not cured from cancer even if they want to be.[/qutoe]

    Anyone whose plan requires billions to die of painful cancers is not a moral person.

    Smoking only causes you to get cancer sooner. If you live long enough, you will get cancer. It is built into us. At some point, all of the safeguards built into our cells to prevent cancer will fail.

    What kind of moral person punishes people with HIV for having sex? If someone decided that their neighbor was immoral, and they stuck them with a needle containing HIV, would they go to jail? Would they themselves be immoral?

    Sinful desires? You mean the ones that God gave us?

    Does a loving father withhold a cure for cancer from their child out of spite?

    Then why are fathers thrown in jail for sexually abusing their children?

     
  11. niye

    niye Guest

    +0
    How does this let God off the hook?

    I know a child will die of ebola (I am omniscient).
    I can save that child (I am omnipotent).
    I know that X could prevent that death, but won't (omniscient)
    I know that X won't find out about his wasted opportunity until he's dead, when it's too late to save himself or the child (pesky omniscience, again).

    Despite knowing all this, and despite having the power to save the child, I let the child die.

    Only conclusion possible here: My omniscience and omnipotence prove that I am not omnibenevolent.
     
  12. Levi777

    Levi777 Newbie

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    People who do not know Him try to figure Him out, and reach false conclusions.

    Why should God alleviate suffering? Why do people think He owes us anything?

    This world is a temporary construct, created for a specific purpose. It is not the norm. Eternity is the norm. In eternity there is no sickness, no suffering, no separation, none of the sorrows we have here on earth. For the short time we are here on this earth, we have the opportunity to seek God from a humble heart. No agendas, other than seeking the truth. People do not understand how to seek Him, and so He draws them. Yet surely the day will come when all will stand before Him, finally convinced. The backpeddling will be very sorrowful, and there will indeed be mourning and the weeping. "Why did you not believe?" will be the question. What will your answer be?

    1) It didn't make sense.
    2) People who said they believe in You did wrong stuff.
    3) I didn't know.
    4) I chose what seemed right.
    5) I needed more proof.
    6) I needed proof.

    Daniel 7:9,10

    9“I kept looking
    Until thrones were set up,
    And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
    His vesture was like white snow
    And the hair of His head like pure wool.
    His throne was ablaze with flames,
    Its wheels were a burning fire.

    10
    “A river of fire was flowing
    And coming out from before Him;
    Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
    And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
    The court sat,
    And the books were opened.

    And there will be pleading, threatening, demanding...all to no avail.

    "But God, You were immoral!" When at last you understand, it will be too late. The problem is not God's character. The problem is your lack of understanding, and refusal to do what it takes to get understanding.
     
  13. Huntun

    Huntun Ho Chih Zen

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    Levi777,

    What will you do when die expecting to see Jesus but instead find yourself in the presence of Thor. He will ask you why you didn't help the Aesir wage war against the Giants but instead mocked him by denying his existence! Then you will be cast into Nifelheim the domain of Hel. 《- See how awesome and convincing the "agree with me or suffer for eternity" arguments are when you don't even believe in the said mythology.
     
  14. Jeremy E Walker

    Jeremy E Walker Active Member

    897
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    1. God is immoral if He requires a child to worship Him before He will cure them of a painful and life threatening disease.

    2. God requires a child to worship Him before He will cure them of a painful and life threatening disease.

    3. Therefore, God is immoral

    This is your argument. I will wait for you to defend one and two. Thanks.



    1. If God exists, then nobody would have to ask to be cured of their ailments.

    2. People have to ask to be cured of their ailments.

    3. Therefore, God does not exist.

    This is your argument. I will wait for you to defend one and two. Thanks.


    1. God is immoral if His plan for humanity entails that billions must die due to painful cancers.

    2. God's plan for humanity entails that billions must die due to painful cancers.

    3. Therefore, God is immoral.


    This is your argument. I will wait for you to defend one and two. Thanks.


    So what?



    LOL, who said contracting HIV was a punishment?

    I certainly did not. You are strawmanning now.



    No.



    No.



    It is against the law I would suppose would be the reason.

    Of what?



    No, I did not realize that. You have any of these testimonies?
     
  15. Jeremy E Walker

    Jeremy E Walker Active Member

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    God is off the hook because the blame is assigned to the one who is to blame, sinful man, not a Holy God.

    It is because of the choice of a man, that sin is in this world, and death through sin. God did not cause Adam to sin. Adam sinned because he wanted something even after being warned what would happen for disobeying God.

    If you do not love the children dying of Ebola and have done nothing to alleviate their suffering, then you and everyone else like you are to blame. Not God.
     
  16. Levi777

    Levi777 Newbie

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    thor is a myth. If ever there was a belief system that included thor then it was a demonic cult. I know Jesus Christ because He revealed Himself to me. Atheists who mock Christians by making statements such as you made are free to follow their fancy. You go ahead and believe in thor if you want to. As I said above, the backpeddling will be most sorrowful indeed.
     
  17. Levi777

    Levi777 Newbie

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    He did create everything. Another will has corrupted all of Creation, and the fruit of that corruption is most evident.

    The truths of God's existence, His nature and His will are revealed by Him to those who surrender to Him. If you refuse to submit your life to Him, believe the Gospel and turn from a life of "another will", you cannot know Him, and therefore, all you say is suspect at best, and mostly wrong.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2014
  18. Huntun

    Huntun Ho Chih Zen

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    Yeah, yeah, "agree with me suffer for eternity." Oldest trick in the priestly book.
     
  19. Skybringr

    Skybringr Well-Known Member

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    God lets evil occur to make good apparent. There's no meaning to benevolence, or anything to strive for in that steed, if He would just prevent evil from happening.

    If life is going to have any meaning at all, there has to be a struggle with the forces of good and evil. It is what makes people appreciate good, it is what convicts hearts, and it is what ultimately makes us grow in wisdom and accountability.
     
  20. niye

    niye Guest

    +0
    Re blaming Adam or others for the child's death: It's hard to forget about the part God played in that garden.

    God is omniscient, so he knew what Adam would do and the consequences of Adam's sin before creating him, the Garden, the Tree. You can't surprise an omniscient being.

    Why would God put Adam in a situation where he would sin? Maybe God had no choice. But God is also omnipotent. If omniscient beings can't be surprised, omnipotent beings can't be forced by circumstance.

    So God placed Adam at a place where he would sin, then proceeded to punish not only him, but all of his descendents. Millions upon millions of people suffered and died, though they never ate that apple. So today, when children die, you blame Adam. Why not blame God?

    If you want your God omniscient and omnipotent, erase omnibenevolent. If you need omnibenevolence, erase either omnipotence or omniscience.

    PS: you wouldn't have this problem with Thor.

    PPS: About your earlier post that God doesn't cure cancer victims because they don't believe enough: Great! let's blame the dying child and her parents, along with Adam and various posters for his plight. Anyone but god.
     
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