The Problem of Evil

[andy b]

I'm not defending him because he's an Atheist, I'm defending him because he's raising valid points.

The best way to combat a troll is to give calm, rational answers for their trolling, which forces them to go into looney-tunes land to keep trolling. Once they do that, then you can justifiably report them.

When the guy is still raising valid arguments, you can't really call him a troll. That makes it look like you're dodging valid criticisms of your belief system.

Are Buddhists atheists i never knew that.....so the Dali lama is an atheist .and heres me thinking he was a cool guy

 

[Ana the Ist]

Is there no "Like this post" button here?


Harummmmmplh!

"Hey...I didn't get a Harummmph outta that guy..."

"Give the governor a Harummmmph!"

"Harummmmph!"

"You better watch your...."

 

[Inkfingers]

.... we have free will...

There is no such thing.

Horrible things happen in life. Accidents, afflictions, calamities and suffering of all kinds.

God does not plan superfluous misery though. The misery that afflicts us has an intrinsic and inalienable purpose in the plan, even if we cannot see it.

Q. How do I know this?

I know that everything is brought to happen by the Logos.

Q. How do I know that?

The Logos is the name for the intelligence behind all that is.

Q. How do I know that there is an intelligence behind all that is?

What are the options? That there is either an intelligence (not necessarily a conscious mind) behind events in the universe, or it is random.

What would be the signs of an intelligence at work? The universe would be orderly and structured, where everything that happens is governed by cause and effect. A universe where everything is a form of information in a giant structured and sequential communication. And....it is.

What instead would be the signs of randomness at work? The universe would not be orderly. It would instead be full of magical events happening chaotically with no cause or pattern. And....it is not.

The evidence points overwhelmingly to intelligence. Randomness meanwhile is just a pseudo-scientific "god of the gaps" with no evidence for its existence whatsoever.

That intelligence is the Logos; or what (CS) Lewis called “the all-pervasive principle of concretion or cohesion whereby the universe holds together”. It is in control, and so everything is governed by cause and effect.

Q. How do I know that such means a “Plan”?

Cause and Effect means structure and orderliness.

Structure and orderliness by definition intrinsically promotes things of structure and order: cohesive and wholesome society, radiant health and longevity, wisdom and clear understanding, solace and emotional stability, endurance through hardship.

Hence there is a Plan. A purpose to the Logos' work. A direction that is inherent to the Logos' own nature.

Q. How do I know that there is no superfluous misery to that Plan.

It is orderly in all things, so by definition there is NOTHING superfluous to it. Everything in an orderly universe is by its nature both unavoidable and intrinsically part of a plan that promotes things of structure and order. Everything that happens had to happen, could not have happened any other way, and by dint of being orderly is inalienably part of that plan and purpose.

Q. How are we supposed to respond to that?

With Faith.

Q. What is Faith?

Faith is simply “being surrendered to reality on the grounds that.....”:

1, …..all is cause and effect (so we don't have a say in what happens anyway)

2, …..cause and effect means structure and orderliness,

3, …..structure and orderliness by definition intrinsically favour: orderly and wholesome society, radiant health and longevity, wisdom and clear understanding, solace and emotional stability, endurance through hardship.

Walking “by faith, not by sight” means that even though suffering happens, and at times the complexity of the world can appear as chaos, we can know not only that Logos has a plan, but that it is a meaningful one with a wholesome purpose and direction, that no suffering is superfluous, and (because all is cause and effect) we don't have any say in what happens anyway – hence “do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your body, what you will wear ”.

Q. What is the opposite of faith?

The opposite of faith is the denial of reality (and a belief in independent personal will and power that can rebel and fight against reality).

Q. Where does faith come from?

The same place as everything else. It comes from the Logos. It is not something that we do of ourselves independent of all else (nothing is - no one has any power, or weakness, that is not given them by the Logos). It is a recognition that we are brought to, or not, by the Logos.

You might call it an “unearned and undeserved gift of grace” that brings “peace [but] not as the world giveth it”.

There is a God, and that God is the Logos; the one by which and through which all that is, is made.

Q. Does this mean that there is no Free Will?

Indeed it does.

The universe works on Cause & Effect.

All events in the universe are the creation of Cause & Effect – that includes every thought, feeling, perception and desire. Nothing in the universe escapes this law.

Thus, everything that happens had to happen and could not have happened any other way.

Which means that we have natures, characters that we act according to, and not Freewill. Natures which are created by the past and modified by the present. We are not separate, insulated and independent from the universe, and from the flow of Cause & Effect – as if we were somehow god-like beings who sit enthroned above all of that. No, we are servants, at most stewards, and not the self-creating masters that vain ignorant delusion would have us believe.

Q. Is this a counsel of despair?

Not at all. Quite the contrary in fact. Far from being cause for despair, these facts point us towards hope.

If we really did have Freewill, we could never trust anyone; because Freewill means that we don't have a character that dictates our actions but instead could literally choose to do any thing at any time. This would mean that someone's past behaviour could never be an indicator of their future actions, thus rendering trust impossible (because people could at any moment equally choose to help another person or kill and eat them – as Freewill means that nothing binds and determines your choices).

Thankfully though, we do not have Freewill. There is no Freewill, there is only order and truth, and we are servant to it.

 

[Hammster]

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I can see that playing by the rules was a bit too much for some. So, I'm closing the thread.


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