The Problem of Evil

[bhsmte]

You are wrong on both accounts...

Things are turning or are going to turn out a specific way cause that's the way God planned it.

Secondly I already mentioned before how god will go against the laws of nature, even in the laws of sin and death, even his own plans sometimes, which are like a law of physics or nature in some cases, sometimes, when he chooses to and he has proven this...

God Bless!

How, has he proven this?

 

[Neogaia777]

How, has he proven this?

You have to believe in miracles...

 

[bhsmte]

You have to believe in miracles...

Which miracles and why do you believe in them?

 

[Neogaia777]

Which miracles and why do you believe in them?

Take too long to list them all in detail, but in short all the miracles performed by Yahweh through the leaders and prophets in the OT, Jesus miracles, and the miracles performed by the apostles disciples in the book of Acts, and recorded in some of the gospels...

 

[bhsmte]

Take too long to list them all in detail, but in short all the miracles performed by Yahweh through the leaders and prophets in the OT, Jesus miracles, and the miracles performed by the apostles disciples in the book of Acts, and recorded in some of the gospels...

Ok. Why do believe these miracles actually happened as claimed?

 

[fireof god98]

What's determinism as you define it?

well ``the belief that all events are caused by things that happened before them and that people have no real ability to make choices or control what happens``

 

[abacabb3]

From this discussion, it appears that we can establish two things.

First, God is not omnipotent. Things are going to turn out a specific way, and there is nothing God can do about it.

Second, God can't stop evil.

If God can't change events and can't stop evil, then why call him God?

Wow, how did we jump to those conclusions out of nowhere in this conversation?

 

[abacabb3]

well ``the belief that all events are caused by things that happened before them and that people have no real ability to make choices or control what happens``

Practically no, effectively yes.

 

[Neogaia777]

Ok. Why do believe these miracles actually happened as claimed?

Because I do not believe they were lying or that there is/was some kind of "big conspiracy", or that it was some kind of "hocus pocus" and that it was the power of the one true God, and all the personal experiences I've had have forced me to conclude that there most definitely is a God, and For the reason that Jesus presence and existence had on the evolution of western society, and the miracles, and many, many other reasons...

Do I really have to get into them all here, cause I really don't feel like it, anyways, in Jesus name,

God Bless!

 

[com7fy8]

So, evil is not only physical things that are not nice. But there is the invisible and nonmaterial spirit of evil. And I personally don't think God brought this into existence. But He can do something about it, get rid of it to a place away from His children . . . where fire can keep it contained and in control.

So, if God did not bring it into existence...how did it get here?

Is He not omniscient and evil was a mistake in His creation?

Is He not all powerful and cannot complete stop it yet?

These are not solid Christian teachings.

The Bible clearly says there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," in Ephesians 2:2. This is Satan's spirit which "works" in people. Those selfish and nasty emotions do work very hard. But Satan's spirit is in people who are refusing to obey how our Father rules them with His own peace in their hearts; so they get the nasty stuff, instead.

But Jesus calls to "all", with hope for "all" > "'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29-30)

The spirit of evil is kept here so it is not in Heaven. And it is in people who do not obey God. They are vessels for holding it, now, until it is moved to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone.

So, God who is almighty does have it under control, keeping it here while He saves people from their sin, before the final judgment. This earth, then, is a prison-of-war camp for Satan and his angels and humans who keep volunteering to live in his selfish spirit.

So, God who is love (1 John 4:8&16) did not bring Satan's evil spirit into existence, but He does know about it and is managing where it is. And as much as we stay with God and obey Him in His peace, we also are in His creative leading to do the good which can be done, in spite of any evil.

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

 

[ToddNotTodd]

The Bible clearly says there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," in Ephesians 2:2. This is Satan's spirit which "works" in people. Those selfish and nasty emotions do work very hard. But Satan's spirit is in people who are refusing to obey how our Father rules them with His own peace in their hearts; so they get the nasty stuff, instead.

But Jesus calls to "all", with hope for "all" > "'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29-30)

The spirit of evil is kept here so it is not in Heaven. And it is in people who do not obey God. They are vessels for holding it, now, until it is moved to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone.

So, God who is almighty does have it under control, keeping it here while He saves people from their sin, before the final judgment. This earth, then, is a prison-of-war camp for Satan and his angels and humans who keep volunteering to live in his selfish spirit.

So, God who is love (1 John 4:8&16) did not bring Satan's evil spirit into existence, but He does know about it and is managing where it is. And as much as we stay with God and obey Him in His peace, we also are in His creative leading to do the good which can be done, in spite of any evil.

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

Does the Christian god have the power to eliminate suffering?

 

[com7fy8]

Does the Christian god have the power to eliminate suffering?

Our Father has the power almighty to eliminate suffering.

Notice how our apostle Paul says, "Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong." (2 Corinthians 12:10) I offer to you, that Paul means how God's grace could keep him pleasant, spiritually and emotionally, even while he did go through things of physical suffering.

The things attacking him were not pleasant; however, God's grace in Paul made him so those awful things could not get the better of him. In us, we can stay peaceful and pleasant, in the almighty power of God's grace, even while things attack our bodies and our lives.

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

So, it is not wise to allow evil to decide how we are and how we see things.

We now have our bodies which are corruptible; so yes our bodies do suffer. Do you want God to eliminate your body, so you don't suffer? Also, if you have no nerves for feeling pain, you "might" be in trouble if you can't feel pain as a warning of how you are doing something wrong.

By the way . . . people's emotional suffering can be a warning that they need to get with God so they don't keep living in a way that can take them into more and more harm. Even "innocent" victims can be going the wrong way because they are not submitting to all our Father can do with them. "And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good?" (1 Peter 3:13)

We do still have our bodies imperfect which can suffer. But spiritually and emotionally, we can get started in the goodness of God's love which keeps us from suffering deeply >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love cast out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

So, yes God's love is almighty to cast out fear with its different sorts of torments. I would say every torment of a personality is somehow connected with some fear. But perfect love is able to cast out that fear . . . any fear, at all.

And then, after we have gotten with God so we can stop suffering inside ourselves, in the resurrection of the body we get the perfect deliverance >

Notice how Jesus in His resurrection still had His wounds, but those wounds could not effect His resurrection body to make it suffer

So, yes He is able, but we need to first trust in Jesus and obey how He does this with us >

"'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.'" (Matthew 11:28-30)

 

[abacabb3]

Does the Christian god have the power to eliminate suffering?

Yes, and He does not want to...and that does not make Him evil either as long as He has a better reason for keeping it around than we have for getting rid of it. And, I'll go with the omniscient one's opinion over yours or mine.

 

[abacabb3]

The Bible clearly says there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," in Ephesians 2:2. This is Satan's spirit which "works" in people. Those selfish and nasty emotions do work very hard. But Satan's spirit is in people who are refusing to obey how our Father rules them with His own peace in their hearts; so they get the nasty stuff, instead.

But Jesus calls to "all", with hope for "all" > "'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29-30)

The spirit of evil is kept here so it is not in Heaven. And it is in people who do not obey God. They are vessels for holding it, now, until it is moved to the flaming sewer which burns with fire and brimstone.

So, God who is almighty does have it under control, keeping it here while He saves people from their sin, before the final judgment. This earth, then, is a prison-of-war camp for Satan and his angels and humans who keep volunteering to live in his selfish spirit.

So, God who is love (1 John 4:8&16) did not bring Satan's evil spirit into existence, but He does know about it and is managing where it is. And as much as we stay with God and obey Him in His peace, we also are in His creative leading to do the good which can be done, in spite of any evil.

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

God "works all things after the counsel of His will" (Eph 1:11). "God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose" (Rom 8:28).

Further:

The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the Lord who does all these. (Is 45:7)

God is the Creator of everything and He works everything according to His unstoppable purpose. To make an arbitrary exception for evil is irrational and clearly contradicts Scripture. God could have crushed Satan before the thought ever entered his head to introduce evil into the world. So, in that sense, God is the great permitter of all evil. Does that make Him evil? No, not if we understand logic and trust the Scripture's revelation in how it describes God's nature.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Yes, and He does not want to...and that does not make Him evil either as long as He has a better reason for keeping it around than we have for getting rid of it. And, I'll go with the omniscient one's opinion over yours or mine.

If he has the power to eliminate suffering and chooses not to, then he automatically loses all claim to benevolent benevolent or perfectly moral.

He is defined as all powerful, that means he could choose whatever he wants for running the universe. If evil is required, that's because god chose it to be a requirement. That also automatically disqualifies him as an ultimately benevolent figure.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

If he has the power to eliminate suffering and chooses not to, then he automatically loses all claim to benevolent benevolent or perfectly moral.

Who has said God has chosen not to eliminate suffering?

Christians do not say this. For they believe the exact opposite. That God will eliminate it.

He is defined as all powerful, that means he could choose whatever he wants for running the universe. If evil is required, that's because god chose it to be a requirement. That also automatically disqualifies him as an ultimately benevolent figure.

What omnipotence entails has been a topic of discussion for centuries. A common consensus is that it simply means the ability to bring about any state of affairs logically possible and in accordance with His nature.

God's plan for humanity includes the existence of evil. No Christian finds this troubling. Nor does it mean that God is not omnibenevolent. It simply means that He has at least one morally sufficient reason for temporarily permitting it.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Who has said God has chosen not to eliminate suffering?

Christians do not say this. For they believe the exact opposite. That God will eliminate it.



What omnipotence entails has been a topic of discussion for centuries. A common consensus is that it simply means the ability to bring about any state of affairs logically possible and in accordance with His nature.

God's plan for humanity includes the existence of evil. No Christian finds this troubling. Nor does it mean that God is not omnibenevolent. It simply means that He has at least one morally sufficient reason for temporarily permitting it.

You do understand that an omnipotent being isn't limited to what is logically possible, because if it can't defy logic, then that is something it cannot do, thus it isn't omnipotent.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

You do understand that an omnipotent being isn't limited to what is logically possible, because if it can't defy logic, then that is something it cannot do, thus it isn't omnipotent.

That is not what omnipotence means.

Sorry.

There are a lot of things God cannot do. This does not mean He is not omnipotent.

I suggest reading up on perfect being theology.

 

[PsychoSarah]

That is not what omnipotence means.

Sorry.

There are a lot of things God cannot do. This does not mean He is not omnipotent.

I suggest reading up on perfect being theology.

Omnipotent literally means "can do anything, has no limits". Seriously, if a being can't literally do anything and everything, it isn't omnipotent. It can certainly be powerful, but it wouldn't be omnipotent.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Omnipotent literally means "can do anything, has no limits". Seriously, if a being can't literally do anything and everything, it isn't omnipotent. It can certainly be powerful, but it wouldn't be omnipotent.

Once again, that is not what omnipotence means when it is used as an attribute of God.

For example, God cannot cause Himself to cease to exist. God cannot lie. God cannot make a stone too heavy for Himself to lift etc. etc.

He cannot create a married bachelor...etc. etc.

This in no way means He is not omnipotent.