The Problem of Evil

Status
Not open for further replies.

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
There is always more to learn about this. I understand that "Heaven" now is where Jesus is on God's throne, with ones who are loving and praising God. But these in Heaven are spiritual beings, and they have the spiritual nature of God's love. So, Heaven now is where there is only love that is pure and kind and caring in our Father's family caring and sharing way.

So why not make Earth like Heaven?
 
Upvote 0

Jeremy E Walker

Well-Known Member
Feb 20, 2014
897
16
✟1,156.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
We are told by people that their ailments were cured by God. People claim that God made their cancer go into remission, for example. So why can't God do that for everyone?

Various reasons.

Unbelief is one of these reasons.

Those who have cancer and deny God exists, or believe He exists but hate Him do not generally ask God to cure their cancer.

Some believe in God and have cancer and ask Him to cure it but He does not cure it. God has a specific plan for humanity and this plan entails that some people are not cured from cancer even if they want to be.

God has a specific plan for humanity and this plan entails that for the most part, life is ordered according to certain laws that have been established by God. If a person smokes cigarettes all of their life knowing that they have an increased chance of getting cancer, and then do, then pray to God to cure them and then get mad when He does not, then the person is just being a big baby, crying and whining that they cannot have everything the way they want it.

If a person has sex with whoever will give it to them whenever they can get it, and then get an STD and then pray to God to heal them and He does not, then they again, are just attempting to use God like they have used others to get what they want.

God is not bound to bow down and cater to the sinful desires of fallen man or to be there every time you want something.

So this is one reason why many are not cured of their ailments.

A loving father does not give their child everything the child asks for. The father knows what's best.

As I stated, those that do rely in and trust in God's mercy realize that either way it goes, they will one day die. This is inescapable. So even when God does not answer their prayers in the precise manner they would have desired, they still trust Him to do what is right.

Ok?



We are expecting God to do what people already claim that he does.

And you should expect Him to. He is even now throughout the world.

The testimonies of literally millions exist to bear this out.

As long as you remain in unbelief, you cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven.



Does Heaven have evil on random days? Will people in Heaven die of painful cancers?

I think you know the answer to both of these. The fact that you are asking such questions causes me to question why you are asking them.
 
Upvote 0

ToddNotTodd

Iconoclast
Feb 17, 2004
7,719
3,791
✟254,230.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Some believe in God and have cancer and ask Him to cure it but He does not cure it. God has a specific plan for humanity and this plan entails that some people are not cured from cancer even if they want to be.

So it's an unloving plan... gotcha...

God has a specific plan for humanity and this plan entails that for the most part, life is ordered according to certain laws that have been established by God. If a person smokes cigarettes all of their life knowing that they have an increased chance of getting cancer, and then do, then pray to God to cure them and then get mad when He does not, then the person is just being a big baby, crying and whining that they cannot have everything the way they want it.

How about an actual baby, crying and whining as it dies of ebola in a remote jungle? Is the baby getting what it deserves? Never mind, plenty of Christians I've talked to believe that the baby actually is getting what it deserves.

A loving father does not give their child everything the child asks for. The father knows what's best.

If I were omnipotent, why wouldn't I give my child everything it asks for? Like when my seven year old is in pain, why wouldn't I relieve that pain if I could?
 
Upvote 0

andy b

Newbie
Supporter
Nov 9, 2013
1,273
194
55
uk
✟75,681.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
Sure I can. Suffering is defined as "the state of undergoing pain, distress or hardship"


If you're in a state of pure goodness, that's better than being in a state of half evil, half good. It's not that hard to figure out.

for me its yin and yang or night and day for a physical world to exist maybe there needs to be both good and bad for life to exist.
 
Upvote 0

Jeremy E Walker

Well-Known Member
Feb 20, 2014
897
16
✟1,156.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
So it's an unloving plan... gotcha...

NonSequitur2014.jpg


Non-sequitur.

How about an actual baby, crying and whining as it dies of ebola in a remote jungle? Is the baby getting what it deserves? Never mind, plenty of Christians I've talked to believe that the baby actually is getting what it deserves.

And they would be wrong. Just because a Christian has a view about something, it does not follow that that view is biblical.

A man died and stood before God and God asks the man why he did not believe in Him and the man replies. "you did not help the suffering babies who were dying from ebola!" God replies, "remember the first time you read about the plight of these children and how you felt a sense of compassion for them?" The man replies, "yes." God then says, "I had arranged for you to personally be able to help in alleviating these children's suffering by giving you the money and the means to help them, but you were too concerned about arguing with a Christian on an internet forum and the window of opportunity came and went. Since you found the children unworthy of your time effort and money, I sent my own followers to help these children and even now, after your death, they are giving their lives, effort, time and money for the sake of these children. So you see, it was you who was evil in not helping when you could have. I wanted to give you the awesome privilege of being able to see a sick child recover and go on to grow up and know that you had a part in it. But you rejected the opportunity. You rejected it because you did not love them."


This Todd, is what you need to think long and hard about.



If I were omnipotent, why wouldn't I give my child everything it asks for? Like when my seven year old is in pain, why wouldn't I relieve that pain if I could?

If your child asks you for a loaded gun or a cup of rat poison you would not give it to them.

What have you done to alleviate the pain of children suffering from ebola?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,141
Visit site
✟98,005.00
Faith
Agnostic
Various reasons.

Unbelief is one of these reasons.

Then God is immoral. It is immoral to require a child to worship you before you will cure them of a painful and life threatening disease.

Those who have cancer and deny God exists, or believe He exists but hate Him do not generally ask God to cure their cancer.

Why would you have to ask?

[qutoe]Some believe in God and have cancer and ask Him to cure it but He does not cure it. God has a specific plan for humanity and this plan entails that some people are not cured from cancer even if they want to be.[/qutoe]

Anyone whose plan requires billions to die of painful cancers is not a moral person.

If a person smokes cigarettes all of their life knowing that they have an increased chance of getting cancer, and then do, then pray to God to cure them and then get mad when He does not, then the person is just being a big baby, crying and whining that they cannot have everything the way they want it.

Smoking only causes you to get cancer sooner. If you live long enough, you will get cancer. It is built into us. At some point, all of the safeguards built into our cells to prevent cancer will fail.

If a person has sex with whoever will give it to them whenever they can get it, and then get an STD and then pray to God to heal them and He does not, then they again, are just attempting to use God like they have used others to get what they want.

What kind of moral person punishes people with HIV for having sex? If someone decided that their neighbor was immoral, and they stuck them with a needle containing HIV, would they go to jail? Would they themselves be immoral?

God is not bound to bow down and cater to the sinful desires of fallen man or to be there every time you want something.

Sinful desires? You mean the ones that God gave us?

A loving father does not give their child everything the child asks for.

Does a loving father withhold a cure for cancer from their child out of spite?

The father knows what's best.

Then why are fathers thrown in jail for sexually abusing their children?

As I stated, those that do rely in and trust in God's mercy realize that either way it goes, they will one day die. This is inescapable. So even when God does not answer their prayers in the precise manner they would have desired, they still trust Him to do what is right.[/qutoe]

Then what's the point?

And you should expect Him to. He is even now throughout the world.

The testimonies of literally millions exist to bear this out.

As long as you remain in unbelief, you cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven.

You do realize that people have testimonies of gods that you don't believe in, don't you?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Jeremy E Walker said:
Non-sequitur.



And they would be wrong. Just because a Christian has a view about something, it does not follow that that view is biblical.

A man died and stood before God and God asks the man why he did not believe in Him and the man replies. "you did not help the suffering babies who were dying from ebola!" God replies, "remember the first time you read about the plight of these children and how you felt a sense of compassion for them?" The man replies, "yes." God then says, "I had arranged for you to personally be able to help in alleviating these children's suffering by giving you the money and the means to help them, but you were too concerned about arguing with a Christian on an internet forum and the window of opportunity came and went. Since you found the children unworthy of your time effort and money, I sent my own followers to help these children and even now, after your death, they are giving their lives, effort, time and money for the sake of these children. So you see, it was you who was evil in not helping when you could have. I wanted to give you the awesome privilege of being able to see a sick child recover and go on to grow up and know that you had a part in it. But you rejected the opportunity. You rejected it because you did not love them."


This Todd, is what you need to think long and hard about.





If your child asks you for a loaded gun or a cup of rat poison you would not give it to them.

What have you done to alleviate the pain of children suffering from ebola?

How does this let God off the hook?

I know a child will die of ebola (I am omniscient).
I can save that child (I am omnipotent).
I know that X could prevent that death, but won't (omniscient)
I know that X won't find out about his wasted opportunity until he's dead, when it's too late to save himself or the child (pesky omniscience, again).

Despite knowing all this, and despite having the power to save the child, I let the child die.

Only conclusion possible here: My omniscience and omnipotence prove that I am not omnibenevolent.
 
Upvote 0

Levi777

Newbie
May 24, 2014
40
1
Washington State
✟15,165.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
People who do not know Him try to figure Him out, and reach false conclusions.

Why should God alleviate suffering? Why do people think He owes us anything?

This world is a temporary construct, created for a specific purpose. It is not the norm. Eternity is the norm. In eternity there is no sickness, no suffering, no separation, none of the sorrows we have here on earth. For the short time we are here on this earth, we have the opportunity to seek God from a humble heart. No agendas, other than seeking the truth. People do not understand how to seek Him, and so He draws them. Yet surely the day will come when all will stand before Him, finally convinced. The backpeddling will be very sorrowful, and there will indeed be mourning and the weeping. "Why did you not believe?" will be the question. What will your answer be?

1) It didn't make sense.
2) People who said they believe in You did wrong stuff.
3) I didn't know.
4) I chose what seemed right.
5) I needed more proof.
6) I needed proof.

Daniel 7:9,10

9“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.

10
“A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

And there will be pleading, threatening, demanding...all to no avail.

"But God, You were immoral!" When at last you understand, it will be too late. The problem is not God's character. The problem is your lack of understanding, and refusal to do what it takes to get understanding.
 
Upvote 0

Huntun

Ho Chih Zen
Apr 30, 2014
209
5
44
✟15,381.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Levi777,

What will you do when die expecting to see Jesus but instead find yourself in the presence of Thor. He will ask you why you didn't help the Aesir wage war against the Giants but instead mocked him by denying his existence! Then you will be cast into Nifelheim the domain of Hel. 《- See how awesome and convincing the "agree with me or suffer for eternity" arguments are when you don't even believe in the said mythology.
 
Upvote 0

Jeremy E Walker

Well-Known Member
Feb 20, 2014
897
16
✟1,156.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Then God is immoral. It is immoral to require a child to worship you before you will cure them of a painful and life threatening disease.

1. God is immoral if He requires a child to worship Him before He will cure them of a painful and life threatening disease.

2. God requires a child to worship Him before He will cure them of a painful and life threatening disease.

3. Therefore, God is immoral

This is your argument. I will wait for you to defend one and two. Thanks.



Why would you have to ask?

1. If God exists, then nobody would have to ask to be cured of their ailments.

2. People have to ask to be cured of their ailments.

3. Therefore, God does not exist.

This is your argument. I will wait for you to defend one and two. Thanks.


Anyone whose plan requires billions to die of painful cancers is not a moral person.

1. God is immoral if His plan for humanity entails that billions must die due to painful cancers.

2. God's plan for humanity entails that billions must die due to painful cancers.

3. Therefore, God is immoral.


This is your argument. I will wait for you to defend one and two. Thanks.


Smoking only causes you to get cancer sooner. If you live long enough, you will get cancer. It is built into us. At some point, all of the safeguards built into our cells to prevent cancer will fail.

So what?



What kind of moral person punishes people with HIV for having sex? If someone decided that their neighbor was immoral, and they stuck them with a needle containing HIV, would they go to jail? Would they themselves be immoral?

LOL, who said contracting HIV was a punishment?

I certainly did not. You are strawmanning now.



Sinful desires? You mean the ones that God gave us?

No.



Does a loving father withhold a cure for cancer from their child out of spite?

No.



Then why are fathers thrown in jail for sexually abusing their children?

It is against the law I would suppose would be the reason.

Then what's the point?

Of what?



You do realize that people have testimonies of gods that you don't believe in, don't you?

No, I did not realize that. You have any of these testimonies?
 
Upvote 0

Jeremy E Walker

Well-Known Member
Feb 20, 2014
897
16
✟1,156.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
How does this let God off the hook?

I know a child will die of ebola (I am omniscient).
I can save that child (I am omnipotent).
I know that X could prevent that death, but won't (omniscient)
I know that X won't find out about his wasted opportunity until he's dead, when it's too late to save himself or the child (pesky omniscience, again).

Despite knowing all this, and despite having the power to save the child, I let the child die.

Only conclusion possible here: My omniscience and omnipotence prove that I am not omnibenevolent.

God is off the hook because the blame is assigned to the one who is to blame, sinful man, not a Holy God.

It is because of the choice of a man, that sin is in this world, and death through sin. God did not cause Adam to sin. Adam sinned because he wanted something even after being warned what would happen for disobeying God.

If you do not love the children dying of Ebola and have done nothing to alleviate their suffering, then you and everyone else like you are to blame. Not God.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Levi777

Newbie
May 24, 2014
40
1
Washington State
✟15,165.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Levi777,

What will you do when die expecting to see Jesus but instead find yourself in the presence of Thor. He will ask you why you didn't help the Aesir wage war against the Giants but instead mocked him by denying his existence! Then you will be cast into Nifelheim the domain of Hel. 《- See how awesome and convincing the "agree with me or suffer for eternity" arguments are when you don't even believe in the said mythology.

thor is a myth. If ever there was a belief system that included thor then it was a demonic cult. I know Jesus Christ because He revealed Himself to me. Atheists who mock Christians by making statements such as you made are free to follow their fancy. You go ahead and believe in thor if you want to. As I said above, the backpeddling will be most sorrowful indeed.
 
Upvote 0

Levi777

Newbie
May 24, 2014
40
1
Washington State
✟15,165.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Non Sequitur.

That's not even coherent. That child isn't dying from "sin", it's dying from ebola, an in curable and fatal disease which presumably your deity created and set loose on the inhabitants of this planet.

[I]Ebola is the fruit of corruption in this world. God did not cause the corruption. The demonic did. This is the "another will" of which I spoke in my original post in this thread. God alone can create life and sustain life. He also alone has the power to cast a soul into a place where there is death without loss of consciousness. He will not change His standards and perspectives to accept people who object to His existence, and blame Him for all the wrong in the world. This world is a temporary construct, created for a specific purpose....a purpose which appears to be to me, at least in part, the final destruction of "another will", or evil. It is a sorrow that the internet is rife with people who choose "another will". [/I]
Hollywood has made a fortune by depicting various gods as mean and angry. They aren't really concerned about the truth, for that is not the agenda, but when people who do not know Him think of God, the movies is where they get their perspectives. Rightly do they understand that their views of God come from fiction, so they judge theirselves by their arrogant refusal to seek the truth, wherever it may lead.


Doesn't speak well for its "omnipotence" if it can't create a creature that will behave as it wants. More omnipotence problems. And petty finger-pointing. It's a poor craftsman who blames his creations.


Again, another will. Unlike most humans, God plays fair. The accusation was made, and He will answer it completely. In every way, evil will be shown to be evil. And the only way evil can be shown to be evil is by the mature fruit of evil. How do we know that "another will" is evil and worthy of destruction? Look at the fruit of it.

Kinda silly to put the forbidden magick tree in the paradise-garden-thingy in the first place. Looks a whole lot like an unfair set-up. You'd think an omniscient, all-wise being would have worked that out itself.

So you would counsel Eve to take a bite? what's whispering in your ear?

...and what are you doing to help children dying of ebola?

What are you doing to help anyone?

Except for that little nagging part about your story claiming your deity creates everything, including the ebola virus that's killing a child who hasn't "sinned".


He did create everything. Another will has corrupted all of Creation, and the fruit of that corruption is most evident.

The truths of God's existence, His nature and His will are revealed by Him to those who surrender to Him. If you refuse to submit your life to Him, believe the Gospel and turn from a life of "another will", you cannot know Him, and therefore, all you say is suspect at best, and mostly wrong.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Skybringr

Well-Known Member
Apr 18, 2014
876
43
✟1,363.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
God lets evil occur to make good apparent. There's no meaning to benevolence, or anything to strive for in that steed, if He would just prevent evil from happening.

If life is going to have any meaning at all, there has to be a struggle with the forces of good and evil. It is what makes people appreciate good, it is what convicts hearts, and it is what ultimately makes us grow in wisdom and accountability.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
God is off the hook because the blame is assigned to the one who is to blame, sinful man, not a Holy God.

It is because of the choice of a man, that sin is in this world, and death through sin. God did not cause Adam to sin. Adam sinned because he wanted something even after being warned what would happen for disobeying God.

If you do not love the children dying of Ebola and have done nothing to alleviate their suffering, then you and everyone else like you are to blame. Not God.

Re blaming Adam or others for the child's death: It's hard to forget about the part God played in that garden.

God is omniscient, so he knew what Adam would do and the consequences of Adam's sin before creating him, the Garden, the Tree. You can't surprise an omniscient being.

Why would God put Adam in a situation where he would sin? Maybe God had no choice. But God is also omnipotent. If omniscient beings can't be surprised, omnipotent beings can't be forced by circumstance.

So God placed Adam at a place where he would sin, then proceeded to punish not only him, but all of his descendents. Millions upon millions of people suffered and died, though they never ate that apple. So today, when children die, you blame Adam. Why not blame God?

If you want your God omniscient and omnipotent, erase omnibenevolent. If you need omnibenevolence, erase either omnipotence or omniscience.

PS: you wouldn't have this problem with Thor.

PPS: About your earlier post that God doesn't cure cancer victims because they don't believe enough: Great! let's blame the dying child and her parents, along with Adam and various posters for his plight. Anyone but god.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.