The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

[Codger]

If someone were contemplating a study of eschatology, like the book of Revelation, what would your best advice be to them before they began? This subject has to do with the manner in which we perceive the Bible accounts. The purpose is to examine our hidden motives, which filter and bias our perceptions.

During the public ministry of Jesus He only spoke in parables, similes, hyperbole, and metaphors. Why did some people understand His message and others did not? Jesus always spoke directly to the spirits of those that he came into contact with. It is the spirit within us that interprets. What characteristics of our spirit causes us to see truth while others do not?

And why was it that the Jews missed the hour of their visitation by the Messiah. What was it that blocked their perception of the truth?

 

[Gnarwhal]

If someone were contemplating a study of eschatology, like the book of Revelation, what would your best advice be to them before they began? This subject has to do with the manner in which we perceive the Bible accounts. The purpose is to examine our hidden motives, which filter and bias our perceptions.

I would suggest they read the entire scope of the New Testament first before even touching Revelation. Our human nature loves to skip to the end and see how things will turn out, but usually the middle is what tells us the meaning of everything that happens in the end.

Aside from scripture, if it were really me giving advice, I would also recommend something like Surprised by Hope by NT Wright as an accompaniment.

During the public ministry of Jesus He only spoke in parables, similes, hyperbole, and metaphors. Why did some people understand His message and others did not? Jesus always spoke directly to the spirits of those that he came into contact with. It is the spirit within us that interprets. What characteristics of our spirit causes us to see truth while others do not?

I think it comes down to the fact that some people, people who obsess over Revelation, have an agenda. Those of us who look at the 'big picture' we try our best to set aside preconceived notions and past influences that would lead us the wrong direction. When those barriers are removed, then surely the Holy Spirit breaks through.

And why was it that the Jews missed the hour of their visitation by the Messiah. What was it that blocked their perception of the truth?

Offhand, the Jews missed their Messiah because they were expecting him to be something he wasn't. They thought he would literally ride out on a war horse and conquer the Roman legions.

We can see history repeating itself again and again with literalists and futurists making nearly the same exact mistake by expecting 'prophecy' to churn out a literal event.

 

[ebedmelech]

If someone were contemplating a study of eschatology, like the book of Revelation, what would your best advice be to them before they began?
My best adviec to them would be tobe steeoed in the OT and the literature, of the Psalms and prophets. They will not understand Revelation unless they do.

This subject has to do with the manner in which we perceive the Bible accounts. The purpose is to examine our hidden motives, which filter and bias our perceptions.

Many only perceive it through what they're taught in church. They trust in their pastors and teachers, and they read the scriptures within the "paradigms" they're taught in.

During the public ministry of Jesus He only spoke in parables, similes, hyperbole, and metaphors. Why did some people understand His message and others did not? Jesus always spoke directly to the spirits of those that he came into contact with. It is the spirit within us that interprets. What characteristics of our spirit causes us to see truth while others do not?

It has many variables when it come to this. From pride to being school and seminary taught, and trusting in that. We see that in many of the contested encounters Jesus had with the religious leaders.

And why was it that the Jews missed the hour of their visitation by the Messiah. What was it that blocked their perception of the truth?

I think this has more to do with God giving them a that spirit of deep sleep, prophesied in Isaiah 29: 9-16.

 

[Codger]

Good replies... I think this subject is extremely important because it gives us insight into our real motives which determine our Paradigm of the Bible and the word of God. Your posts are right on but there is more to say on this subject a lot of which I have but only recently learned myself.


Proverbs 20:27 (KJV)
27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Proverbs 20:27 (NASB)
27 The spirit of man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the innermost parts of his being.

Job 38:36 (NASB)
36 "Who has put wisdom in the innermost being Or given understanding to the mind?

Psalm 51:6 (NASB)
6 Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being, And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.

John 7:37-39 (NASB)
37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Looking back over the decades when I was very young in the Lord and didn't have much of an understanding of the will and purposes of God (who did?) - I automatically accepted all that I was taught as Gospel. The idea of errors in interpretation did not even occur to me. I'm talking about the teachings of the school of thought or denomination that I belonged to (AoG). (All schools of belief sound logical) I didn't even know back then that there was any other Bible translation other than the King James. Neither did I perceive that there were other ways to interpret scripture.

Who would ever believe that our beloved Pastor would give us bad information? Nor would our trusted friends, relatives, mentors, and fellow Christians. These from our early days were those who encouraged us and also applauded our progress in our Denominational pursuit. I remember being thankful that I had considered myself fortunate that I belonged to an organization that teaches the truth of the Word of God. I think that a lot of us fall into this scenario throughout our lifetime. Can you relate to this as well?

But into my early thirties I had gained a lot more knowledge and really began having logic problems with Eschatology in particular. I had accepted it prior to my 30's but now there was difficulty. There is also the parallel problem that when you believe in a particular doctrine - then to go against approved doctrines this creates guilt (false) and the rejection of your fellow coreligionists. There rejection can also lead to some degree of ostracization. People may avoid you or hold you at arms length.

I have been an Amil (or some semblance of one) for over 30 years and I have never been to an Amil Church or known Amil people personally (except on sites like these) – they all have been PreMil Dispy – all my friends and associates even today have been of this school of thought. I think Ebed was in this same situation as I recall. So to some of us there is a price to pay for our revised viewpoint of Scripture. The last Church that I attended the pastor knew of my Amil viewpoint. I had given him tapes on the subject only to hear them refuted on his daily radio program. You are tolerated by the leadership and never would be allowed to function as a teacher or hold and important position in the organization. The cost has been high for my belief system.

The principle here is doctrinal rigidity due to peer pressure. The unwillingness to pay the price that is required to change. That is to make the transition from what we are taught to what God is leading us to. This is probably a subconscious decision. However this is much less severe today than it would have been 50 years ago. We all have many veils covering our spiritual eyes. God removes them one at a time. He exposes us to more and more truth and if we walk toward it - the veil is removed allowing us to see more clearly.

If we are unwilling to walk toward his truth the veil remains. We always have to be willing to accept the consequences of receiving Gods word. It may simply mean abandoning our opinions and being open to His truth. Or if we today enjoy the honored office of teacher or guru to be willing to accept stepping down into obscurity if need be. There is nothing more capable of staunching the still small voice of the Spirit than an opinion because an opinion believes it already has the truth and asks no questions.

A lot more to come if there is any interest.

 

[ebedmelech]

Indeed Codger, I walked the "dispensational walk" for about 5 years...but all along the way I had some doubts because I was reading scripture and seeing things that I had serious questions about...yet I continued to listen to many teachers of that way.

These are/were faithful men of God like:

Chuck Swindoll, J. Vernon McGee, Homer Lindsay, Jerry Vines, Oliver B. Green, John MacArthur, Charles Stanley...and many more.

I had to conclude their eschatology was in question, but I never doubted their relationship to God...just their eschatology.

Too many saints are listening, and not studying and researching what they are taught. They are accountable to God to search the scriptures, and see if what they are taught is so.

There are many saints that do what I did...which is *Put their faith* in what their pastors/teachers them, without searching the word. I was partially guilty of this because even with my doubts from reading scripture, I "gave them the nod" because they were learned.

It was listening to R. C. Sproul and Hank Hannegraf, that helped me to really see how to read scripture and understand the poetry, imagery, and apocalyptic language of scripture.

Even so...I didn't just "buy in". I worked through the scripture to test that out, and found it to be very true.

To lock into any one system of theology/eschatology is the real error, as I see it. Jesus gifted the church with teachers, but teachers have a fallen nature just like the rest of us! They will ALL fall short somewhere.

Test what you read, hear, or are taught by anyone...and keep testing it!

 

[Codger]

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Indeed Codger, I walked the "dispensational walk" for about 5 years...but all along the way I had some doubts because I was reading scripture and seeing things that I had serious questions about...yet I continued to listen to many teachers of that way.

Well, you are very fortunate to have gotten out in only 5 years – I had to grow up first (30's) - to a point where I started to think for myself and to realize that often very honest and sincere people can also be sincerely wrong about their beliefs. And also to have enough confidence to overcome the fear of not subjecting myself to what I was taught. Most of us have not studied the Word for ourselves but rather have relied on others, within various schools of thought, to to the studying for us. This is easy to see when you look at all of the “Name dropping” of recognized authorities and all of the “Cut-n-paste” quotes used to succor arguments on this site.

These are/were faithful men of God like:

Chuck Swindoll, J. Vernon McGee, Homer Lindsay, Jerry Vines, Oliver B. Green, John MacArthur, Charles Stanley...and many more.

I had to conclude their eschatology was in question, but I never doubted their relationship to God...just their eschatology.

Very respected and honorable men. And of course my Bible study of the past decade has been mostly in the area of Eschatology. My views seem to change or become more expanded almost monthly as I read more and more information. However, my total Paradigm of the Bible has many large holes in it. I don't have insights into many themes of the Bible – Deliverance, intercessory prayer, healing, and many more. I don't think any of us really live long enough to learn all aspects of the Bible and the New Covenant. Bible study seems to be very vast and deep.

Too many saints are listening, and not studying and researching what they are taught. They are accountable to God to search the scriptures, and see if what they are taught is so.

We live in a time where everything is preprocessed, precooked, prepackaged, and on the shelf in easy access and on sale. Years ago I noticed at our local Christian bookstore how the study section was shrinking and the “topical exposition” books were growing – Left Behind type of literature. Today it's just easy to let others do our studying and interpreting for us. Our study (speaking from my own experience) usually consists of reviewing others viewpoints in the context of their logic. All false doctrines sound logical. But of course there is the term pseudo-logic as well.

There are many saints that do what I did...which is *Put their faith* in what their pastors/teachers them, without searching the word. I was partially guilty of this because even with my doubts from reading scripture, I "gave them the nod" because they were learned.

I think it takes time to realize this. All Churches that I have been exposed to over the years have had a salvation message – which is the most important. And many other good teachings as well. We are very fortunate that the grace of God tolerates all of our false beliefs because if He didn't who could be saved at all? I couldn't name anyone who I think has it all put together – we are all lacking in one (or more) areas of our lives.

It was listening to R. C. Sproul and Hank Hannegraf, that helped me to really see how to read scripture and understand the poetry, imagery, and apocalyptic language of scripture.

Even so...I didn't just "buy in". I worked through the scripture to test that out, and found it to be very true.

To lock into any one system of theology/eschatology is the real error, as I see it. Jesus gifted the church with teachers, but teachers have a fallen nature just like the rest of us! They will ALL fall short somewhere.

Test what you read, hear, or are taught by anyone...and keep testing it!

I think we are both on the same page having had similar experiences in the past. For decades I have asked for help in understanding Eschatology but every time I tried to study it – it went nowhere. I've probably read about 60+ books on Revelation and rejected about 95% of what I read because it did not seem to ring true. I even copied a list of books on Revelation from the database on the library of Congress – a stack of paper about ¼” thick – and borrowed books from this list through my local library. These were borrowed from other libraries. I was interested in the older publications which were pre Darby. Some had such a high dollar value that the library would not lend them to me despite my offer of posting a bond.


This drought ended on January 1st of 2013. All of a sudden there was insight into Revelation. Most all of it came while lying in bed in the quiet and stillness of the night. Things started to come together and I have been writing about it since then. The information will probably be available on the web in a year or two. I started recording it in February of 2013. I posted a few pages of it on this site and it went nowhere so it will not be a popular web site when it is made public and certainly it will never ever warrant publishing it as a book. Compared to the exciting and sensational PreMil doctrines it is totally anticlimactic and boring. The reason is that it is written from the viewpoint of the first century Christian and it is very simple and relevant to the people to whom it was written.

 

[ebedmelech]

I came across a very enlightening article on the first resurrection by Meredith Kline. It shows why the first resurrection is not physical resurrection.

Give it a read if you're interested:

The First Resurrection | Meredith G. Kline Resource Site

The guy is "ON POINT"...

 

[Rev20]

If someone were contemplating a study of eschatology, like the book of Revelation, what would your best advice be to them before they began? This subject has to do with the manner in which we perceive the Bible accounts. The purpose is to examine our hidden motives, which filter and bias our perceptions.

During the public ministry of Jesus He only spoke in parables, similes, hyperbole, and metaphors. Why did some people understand His message and others did not? Jesus always spoke directly to the spirits of those that he came into contact with. It is the spirit within us that interprets. What characteristics of our spirit causes us to see truth while others do not?

And why was it that the Jews missed the hour of their visitation by the Messiah. What was it that blocked their perception of the truth?

I would recommend reading the New Testament many times before tackling the Old Testament. One of the most serious errors in interpreting OT (old covenant) prophecies is the tendency to take figurative prophecy literally. A careful reading and understanding of the New Testament (the new covenant) will teach you how the Lord and his Apostles interpreted the old covenant prophecies.


.

 

[parousia70]

If someone were contemplating a study of eschatology, like the book of Revelation, what would your best advice be to them before they began?

I would encourage him/her to ask themselves as they read "what did this mean to the original audience"?

Only when we can decipher what any given eschatological (or any other genre for that matter) Bible passage meant to those who FIRST received it, can we glean its meaning for us today.

 

[like eagleswings]

hi

not sure this is right thread, but why is it at the resurection,or rapture we meet the lord in the clouds, in the air. is it to takes us out of the earth before God pours his wrath on earth, i just found it interesting that we meet in the clouds,and not ground level.

1 thessalonians 4;17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[JLB777]

hi

not sure this is right thread, but why is it at the resurection,or rapture we meet the lord in the clouds, in the air. is it to takes us out of the earth before God pours his wrath on earth, i just found it interesting that we meet in the clouds,and not ground level.

1 thessalonians 4;17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

He gets all His people with Him in the clouds above the earth before He pours out His Vengeance on those who are left on earth.


JLB

 

[like eagleswings]

He gets all His people with Him in the clouds above the earth before He pours out His Vengeance on those who are left on earth.


JLB

thanks

yes that confirms to me that as born again christians we are not subject to Gods wrath, as some think,therefore, is a case that we will not be going through the what is called the great tribulation.

 

[Gnarwhal]

hi

not sure this is right thread, but why is it at the resurection,or rapture we meet the lord in the clouds, in the air. is it to takes us out of the earth before God pours his wrath on earth, i just found it interesting that we meet in the clouds,and not ground level.

1 thessalonians 4;17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I would highly recommend reading NT Wright's book "Surprised by Hope" he's undoubtedly today's foremost scholar on New Testament Theology, and he specializes in Pauline writing - which covers the question you have.

To summarize Wright's perspective, what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians was an expressive picture that his audience at the time would have instantly recognized. In first-century Rome, when a dignitary visited a province in the empire, the city nearest the port emptied out and all of it's inhabitants would meet the dignitary upon their arrival. The caveat, though, is that the inhabitants would then escort the dignitary back into the city.

This is an aspect of the parousia that futurists like to ignore, they want to believe in an escapist's destiny rather than acknowledging that our future is here, amongst God's creation.

 

[like eagleswings]

I would highly recommend reading NT Wright's book "Surprised by Hope" he's undoubtedly today's foremost scholar on New Testament Theology, and he specializes in Pauline writing - which covers the question you have.

To summarize Wright's perspective, what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians was an expressive picture that his audience at the time would have instantly recognized. In first-century Rome, when a dignitary visited a province in the empire, the city nearest the port emptied out and all of it's inhabitants would meet the dignitary upon their arrival. The caveat, though, is that the inhabitants would then escort the dignitary back into the city.

This is an aspect of the parousia that futurists like to ignore, they want to believe in an escapist's destiny rather than acknowledging that our future is here, amongst God's creation.

thanks for the recommendation.
There is no two ways about it, its there written,we shall meet the lord in the clouds, in the air. The earth is going to get a pounding, no way would he allow his children to be subject to the real horror of Gods wrath,that he will pour, think about it, God has been patiently waiting for man to turn to him, while man defiantly gos about doing great evil , God has to put a stop to it. you can see its brewing towards this. times running out for people to come to christ,and yes escape his wrath.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Anytime.

I think one of the biggest components of properly understanding eschatology is breaking away from the flawed belief that God is relishing the moment when he gets to torch this place. For one thing, any belief in the physical destruction of the world is not founded in Christianity. In fact, that's a belief of ancient Stoicism (see: Universal Conflagration).

The fate of the world is redemption and restoration, just like us. Now, the systems of the world - the ones that are broken and perpetuate injustice and oppression - those will surely be destroyed.

 

[Willie T]

I'm curious. Why do you guys think a label like "P/P" needs to be placed on people who simply read and believe what the Bible plainly states?

 

[Gnarwhal]

I'm curious. Why do you guys think a label like "P/P" needs to be placed on people who simply read and believe what the Bible plainly states?

What do you mean? Is "P/P" shorthand for "partial-preterist"?

 

[like eagleswings]

Anytime.

I think one of the biggest components of properly understanding eschatology is breaking away from the flawed belief that God is relishing the moment when he gets to torch this place. For one thing, any belief in the physical destruction of the world is not founded in Christianity. In fact, that's a belief of ancient Stoicism (see: Universal Conflagration).

The fate of the world is redemption and restoration, just like us. Now, the systems of the world - the ones that are broken and perpetuate injustice and oppression - those will surely be destroyed.

2 peter 3;10-13

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[c] 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

 

[Rev20]

2 peter 3;10-13

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[c] 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

When Peter refers to elements being dissolved, and melting with fervent heat, what does he mean? The Greek word for elements is this, from Strongs:

<4747> stoicheion; something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literal), proposition (figurative): — element, principle, rudiment.

And these are some references that contain that Greek word:

"Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements <4747> shall melt with fervent heat?" -- 2Pet 3:12​

"Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements <4747> of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons." -- Gal 4:3-5​

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments <4747> of the world, and not after Christ." -- Col 2:8​

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles <4747> of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat." -- Heb 5:12​

It appears Peter was speaking spiritually in reference to the "destruction" or elimination of the principles and traditions of the old covenant. Therefore, the statement "new heavens and new earth" should be reconsidered in light of the many references that contradict it.

For example, after the creation of the "new heavens and new earth" in Revelation 21, there are still nations and still kings; and the nations require healing. Where did they come from, and why would they need healing?

"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it." -- Rev 21:24​

"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." -- Rev 22:2​

Isaiah indicates there are still generations coming and going in the new heavens and new earth (and there are still sinners):

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them." -- Isa 65:17-21​

That explains these verses that indicate this earth is not going anywhere:

"One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever." -- Ecc 1:4​

"And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever." -- Ps 78:69​

"His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah." -- Ps 89:36-37 [Note, the moon abideth forever.]​

"Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever." -- Ps 104:5​

"Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations." -- Ps 145:13​

"For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else." -- Isa 45:18​

"How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation." -- Dan 4:3​

"Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land. But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation." -- Joel 3:19-20​

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." -- John 3:17​

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." -- John 12:47​

"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." -- Eph 3:21​

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." -- Rev 11:15 [Note that it says "this world"]​

.

 

[Rev20]

I'm curious. Why do you guys think a label like "P/P" needs to be placed on people who simply read and believe what the Bible plainly states?

Willie, I am a partial preterist, and I wear P/P (partial-preterist) as badge of honor. I would wear NAF (not a futurist) equally honorably.


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