The Partial Preterist Believers Safe House

[JLB777]

thanks

yes that confirms to me that as born again christians we are not subject to Gods wrath, as some think,therefore, is a case that we will not be going through the what is called the great tribulation.

We need to be rightly diving the difference between the Devil's anger, and God's wrath on mankind.


When God poured out His wrath on Egypt, were any of the children of Israel affected. No, nor were there livestock.

This is a picture for us today.


Look at this important verse to understand.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Once you have it settled once and for all, that the Resurrection and the Rapture are the same event and can not be separated, even though the Resurrection comes before the Rapture, then you will never be deceived again about this doctrine.

Caught up together with them, is THE GATHERING!

All those who are His, will be Gathered Together at the same time, at His Coming.

Study the scriptures that pertain to the gathering and the Resurrection, and you will have all your questions answered.


JLB

 

[ebedmelech]

Here's a link to a very well done series leading to the exposition of 2Thessalonians 2. You may not agree with every viewpoint here, but this guy is on point:

The Prophecy of 2 Thessalonians 2 Sermons | SermonAudio.com

 

[like eagleswings]

it dont make sense to me that God would pour out his cup of wrath ,while his children are in the brunt of it. thats why i believe we will get pulled out at some point.

 

[random person]

The Importance of Circumcision!

The Chosen Seed And Circumcision Part 1​

At this juncture, we must take note of a vital issue that is virtually ignored in the modern discussions about Israel and God's promises to her, and that is the subject of circumcision. It is all but impossible for moderns to appreciate the passion that this topic generated in the New Testament times. To Christians, circumcision is about hygiene; to the Jews it was about God's covenant. It was about being a child of God, their election by Him. It was about the Land. It was about the Temple. It was everything.

What Paul taught about circumcision was considered "the offense of the Cross" (Galatians 5:11), by the Jews and Judaizers. The Jews wanted to kill Paul for what he taught about circumcision. And what did Paul teach? He taught that, "If you become circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing"; "I testify to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law"; "In Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love" (Galatians 5:2-6). So what is the big deal about this? As just noted, we today cannot easily grasped why Paul's doctrine about circumcision would incite such violent reactions. The reason why we have such a difficult time appreciating this is because we are unfamiliar with the true meaning of covenant.

For brevity, we will list just a few of the main themes associated with circumcision in the mind of the Jews.

1.) Genesis 17:7-14 -- Circumcision and the Identity Of God's People.

When Jehovah called Abraham, He made a covenant of circumcision with him. The Lord told Abraham that if anyone was born in his house or a slave purchased by any of descendants was not circumcised, "he shall be cut off from the people" (Genesis 17:14). This meant he was to die.

Simply stated, no circumcision meant you were not of the Abrahamic seed, and if you were not of the Abrahamic seed, you were "outside". For Paul, prior to Christ, there were only two classifications of mankind, the circumcised and the uncircumcised, and the uncircumcised were, "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in this world." (Ephesians 2:11f). To put it another way, no circumcision, no hope.

Now, if you had been taught, as a people, for 1,500+ years that circumcision was a sign of God's covenant with you, to identify you as His, and all of a sudden someone started saying that circumcision now meant nothing, how would you react? If this act identified you as a child of God, blessed above all people and now you were told that it no longer had any special significance in God's eyes, wouldn't you consider that man a heretic, a rabble-rouser and a revolutionary?

2.) Joshua 5 -- Circumcision and the Land.

As Joshua led the children of Israel to the borders of the promised land, it was realized that the men had not been circumcised. The generation that had come out of Egypt had died out, and failed to have their sons circumcised. As a result, Israel could not possess the land.. Joshua had all the men circumcised and God said: "This day have I rolled the approach of Egypt from you" (Joshua 5:9). Now if, even as a descendant of Abraham, you could not possess the land if you were not circumcised, how incredible was it for Paul to say, "Circumcision avails nothing." Covenantally, no circumcision meant no land. And now, Paul said circumcision avails nothing. The umbilical cord between circumcision and the Land was being cut by the gospel of the Messiah.

3.) Acts 21:27f -- Circumcision and the Temple.

In Acts, the Jews thought Paul had taken Trophimus, an uncircumcised Greek, into the Temple. A riot broke out, and Paul would literally have been killed on the spot had not the Roman commander rescued him. It will be remembered that although the Romans had removed the authority of capital punishment from Israel prior to this occasion, the had actually made exceptions in cases involving violation of the Temple. Thus, there were plaques placed all around the Temple complex, with inscriptions warning all Gentiles that to proceed past a certain point would result in their death.

The Temple was the most sacred place in the world. It was the center of the world for the Jews. The privilege of worshipping there was one of the greatest blessings in the world. Circumcision provided passage into those hallowed courts. Without circumcision, no one could enter its holy gates. No circumcision, no Temple privileges.

Considering these facets of Israel's identity, perhaps we can begin to have a basic grasp of the passion with which circumcision was viewed by the Jews of Paul's day. No circumcision placed one outside the covenants, outside the land, outside the city, outside of God's favor.

Is it any wonder why Paul considered such a heretic? Is it any wonder why the Jews sought to kill him? Is it any wonder why his gospel was such an offense to them? For Paul to argue that true circumcision is not of the heart (Colossians 2:11-12), and belongs to those of faith, not of the flesh (Philippians 3:1-3), meant that God's election of national Israel was coming to a close. It meant that Israel was being re-defined along spiritual lines, as hinted at by the prophets, but never grasped by those focused on earthly things. It meant, positively, that the time of fulfillment had come, the time anticipated in Genesis 28 and 49 when the scepter would pass from Judah. This was truly good news, except to those who were mindful of the flesh and who trusted in the flesh (Philippians 3).

More to come shortly...

This excerpt was taken from Israel 1948 Countdown To No Where

 

[random person]

The Chosen Seed And Circumcision Part 2​

What is the implications of Paul's doctrine of circumcision for the belief that national Israel remains God's chosen people? It is devastating. For Paul, the Abrahamic seed was now being determined by faith, not by circumcision, "Only those who are of faith are of Abraham" (Galatians 3:6f). This means that physical circumcision no longer determined if a person was of the Abrahamic line. How incredibly important.

Paul taught that in God's eyes the Abrahamic seed is no longer determined by the flesh and circumcision. How then can one speak of the restoration of national Israel as God's chosen people without rejecting Paul's gospel? Talk about a replacement theology!

Jesus said his word, his New Covenant wherein physical circumcision means nothing, would never pass away (Matthew 24:35). Well, if the gospel of Jesus will never pass away, and if the gospel message is that physical circumcision avails nothing with God, how can one teach that national Israel, identified by circumcision, will be restored? You cannot restore national Israel-identified by obedience to the Abrahamic Covenant of circumcision--to God's favor without annulling the Gospel of Jesus Christ that says, "Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything." The choice is clear. Circumcision means no Christ, but Christ means no circumcision. No circumcision means that all emphasis on ethnic identity, all claims to the Land and all emphasis on the City and Temple is nullified.

Thus, religiously, Israel is no longer Biblical Israel, because Jehhovah removed the Old Covenant, along with circumcision, the sacrifices, the temple, the priesthood, in AD 70. And ethnically, Israel is no longer Biblical Israel, because Jehovah destroyed the genealogical records in AD 70, and, the majorityof those calling themselves Jews today, are atheists, or are of Gentile descent.

To make 1948, or any other modern time, the restoration of national Israel to God's favored position one must be willing to affirm the rejection and replacement of the blood bought gospel of Jesus Christ with the obsolete doctrine of circumcision. It is imperative that the modern evangelical world come to grips with these vital truths. The events of 1948 have nothing to do with Old Covenant Biblical Israel.

Israel 1948: Countdown To No Where pgs 45-48.

Thank you Don K Preson. May God bless you exceedingly.

 

[Rev20]

it dont make sense to me that God would pour out his cup of wrath ,while his children are in the brunt of it. thats why i believe we will get pulled out at some point.

Jesus was brutally tortured and then crucified; his apostles and many early church members were stoned, beheaded, crucified, or worse--some were tied up in sacks and thrown to the wild dogs, and others were doused with oil and lit ablaze to illuminate the private gatherings (parties) of a sick psychopath named Nero; but we, the pampered masses of the twentieth century will be spared tribulation? Does that make sense?


.

 

[like eagleswings]

Jesus was brutally tortured and then crucified; his apostles and many early church members were stoned, beheaded, crucified, or worse--some were tied up in sacks and thrown to the wild dogs, and others were doused with oil and lit ablaze to illuminate the private gatherings (parties) of a sick psychopath named Nero; but we, the pampered masses of the twentieth century will be spared tribulation? Does that make sense?


.

.
they were heroes that had to go through ,for the sake of the church at that time. and christians today are being killed, but becuase we are,so called pampered, that we should suffer terrible deaths ,becuase we had it easy. do you think phisical death is all there is, what about other sufferings like , mental,spritual,phisical,can last for years, death would be a relief.
when the judgments get full momentum there wont be many of us left,alive
so whats the point in getting punished ,for the punishment will be for those who rejected Jesus.

 

[random person]

This post will be a repository of Preterist apocalyptics:

Coming in Clouds: is never literal, it is metaphoric symbol representing judgment. For instance, in Isaiah 19:1, Yahweh wasn't visibly seen by the Egyptains surfing the clouds. Neither was Jesus by the 1st Century Jews and Romans.

Stars: represent kings & kingdoms, symbols of civil governments, including the religious and civil state of Israel.

The Sun: represents the Jewish Church
The Moon: represents the government of the Jewish state
The Stars: represents judges and doctors of both the Jewish government and church

Revelation 6:12-17 is a self-interpreted commentary on apocalyptic symbology


12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

In ancient Hieroglyphics writing the sun, moon, and stars represented empires and states, with their sovereign and nobility. The eclipses of these luminaries was said to denote temporary national disaster, or an entire overthrow of any state. This is still an Eastern mode of writing, and there are some classical examples of it. The prophets frequently employ it, so that their style seems to be a speaking hieroglyphic. Thus Isaiah describes the destruction of Babylon, and Ezekiel that of Egypt.

As said before the passage in Revelation 6:12-17 self-interprets itself.

LIGHTS OUT FOR EGYPT - Ezekiel 32:7-8 (Babylon extinguished its political lights - see verse 11)

LIGHTS OUT FOR ISRAEL & JUDAH - Amos 5:18; 8:9 (Assyria & Babylon extinguished its political lights)

LIGHTS OUT FOR EDOM - Isaiah 34:4-5

LIGHTS OUT FOR BABYLON - Isaiah 13:9-10 (Persian Medes extinguished its political lights)

LIGHTS OUT FOR JUDEA & JERUSALEM - Matthew 24:29 (Romans extinguished its political lights)

Additionally, can stars literally fall to the earth and the earth survive? No, stars are much larger than Earth. One star would be enough to turn Earth into dust.

Old Heaven/Old Earth & New Heavens/New Earth Also "End of the Age", "Last Days", Etc.:

Here I am going to rely upon a few quotes.

It is the solemn termination and crisis of the dispensation which had run its course when the temple fell, and there was not left one stone upon another which was not thrown down. That catastrophe, which in Heb. 12:26, is conceived as a shaking of the earth and the heaven, is the end contemplated in this discourse; not "the end of the world," but the termination and consummation of the pre-Messianic age.

Biblical Apocalyptics: A Study of the Most Notable Revelations of God and Of Christ by Milton S Terry. Pg 225.

The passing away of the dispensation of the law of Moses, which as limited in great part to Israel after the flesh, might well be called the Jewish dispensation, was justly regarded as "the end of the age" (Matt 24:3). The Messiah was viewed as the bringer in of a new world. The period of the Messiah was, therefore, correctly characterized by the synagogue as "the world to come." In this signification our Lord used that expression when he uttered the solemn warning that the sin against the Holy Ghost would be forgiven "neither in this world (the then dispensation), neither in the world to come" (Matt. 12:32), or the new dispensation, when, "having overcome the sharpness of death," Christ "opened the kingdom of heaven to all believers."

Zechariah And His Prophecies by Charles Henry Hamilton Wright. Pg. 449

"Heaven and earth passing away," understood literally, is the dissolution of the present system in the universe; and the period when that is to take place, is called the "end of the world." But a person at all familiar with the phraseology of the Old Testament Scriptures, knows that the dissolution of the Mosaic economy, and the establishment of the Christian, is often spoken of as the removing of the old earth and heavens, and the creation of a new earth and new heavens.

Discourses And Sayings Of Our Lord by John Brown. 1:170.

 

[random person]

Just wanted to make more contributions to this thread.

As we know, God has a new Temple made of living stones namely Spirit-filled believers.

Peter & Paul write under Spirit inspiration:

The Church is God's new chosen people now. 1 Peter 2:9-10
The Church is God's new Temple now. 1 Peter 2:5
Christians themselves are now the new Temple of God. 1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19; 2 Cor. 6:16

But futurism and premillennialism desperately requires a third Temple in Jerusalem otherwise there is no fulfillment of Daniel 9:27; Matt. 24:1-2,15; 2 Thess. 2:4; & Revelation 11:1-2.

The preterist does not have to depend on such an unreliable and completely speculative future.

But without that third Temple, futurism falls flat on its face.

When I converted to preterism I discovered its virtues too.

1. Preterism does not entangle itself in Middle East politics.

2. Preterism does not support the ethnic cleansing and occupation of the Palestinians but realize both Israeli and Palestinian need Jesus.

3. Preterism does not anticipate wars nor a fourth Jewish holocaust in which 2/3s will perish.

4. Preterism does not anticipate and support a third worthless Jewish Temple, a desire in futurism that will only further destabilize the Middle East, but that the destruction of the final Temple occurred in AD 70.

5. Preterism does not waste energy and time in end times speculations nor newspaper exigesis but focuses on the larger more important issues and that is, God's kingdom and the Gospel.

Amen.

 

[random person]

Elements (stoicheia), 2 Peter 3:10-12:

What are the elements? So-called "literalists" lightly and carelessly assume that the apostle is speaking about physics, using the term to mean atoms (or perhaps subatomic particles), the actual physical components of the universe. What these "literalists" fail to recognize is that although the word elements (stoicheia) is used several times in the New Testament, it is never used in connection with the physical universe!

Kittel' Theological Dictionary Of New Testament Words observes that while in pagan literature the word is used in a number of different ways (referring to the "four elements" of the physical world, or to the "notes" on a musical scale, or to the "principals" of geometry or logic), the New Testament writers use the term "in a new way, describing the stoicheia as weak and beggarly. In the transferred sense, the stoicheia are the things on which pre-Christian existence rests, especially the pre-Christian religion. These things are impotent; they bring bondage instead of freedom."*

Theological Dictionary Of The New Testament by Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich. Abridged. Pg 1088.

Thoughout the New Testament, the word "elements" (stoicheia) is always used in connection with the Old Covenant order. St. Paul used the term in his stinging rebuke to the Galatian Christians who were tempted to forsake the freedom of the New Covenant for an Old Covenant-style legalism. Describing Old Covenant rituals and ceremonies, he says "we were in bondage under the elements (stoicheia) of this world.... How is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements (stoicheia), to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years...." (Galatians 4:3, 9-10).

He warns the Colossians:

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the basic principles (stoicheia) of the world, and not according to Christ... Therefore, if you died with Christ to the basic principles (stoicheia) of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations - "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle." (Colossians 2:8, 20-21).​

The writer to the Hebrews chided them: "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elements (stoicheia) of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food" (Hebrews 5:12). In context, the writer to the Hebrews is clearly speaking of Old Covenant truths - particularly since he connects it with the term oracles of God, an expression used elsewhere in the New Testament for the provisional, Old Covenant revelation (see Acts 7:38, Romans 3:2).

These citations from Galatians, Colossians, and Hebrews comprise all the other occurrences in the New Testament of that word "elements" (stoicheia). Not one refers to the "elements" of the physical world or universe; all are speaking of the "elements" of the Old Covenant system, which, as the apostles wrote just before the approaching destruction of the Old Covenant Temple in AD 70, was "becoming obsolete and growing old" and "ready to vanish away" (Hebrews 8:13). And St. Peter uses the same term in exactly the same way. Throughout the Greek New Testament, the word elements (stoicheia) always means ethics, not physics; the foundational "elements" of a religious system that was doomed to pass away in a fiery judgment.

In fact, St. Peter was quite specific about the fact that he was not referring to an event thousands of years in their future, but to something that was already taking place:

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements (stoicheia) will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Therefore, since all these things are being dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements (stoicheia) are being melted with fervent heat? (2 Peter 3:10-12).​

 

[random person]

Looking For A New Heaven And Earth

Isaiah 51:15-16

But I am the Lord thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The Lord of hosts is his name.

And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.


The time when the work here mentioned, of planting the heavens, and laying the foundation of the earth, was performed by God, was when he "divided the sea" (v. 15), and gave the law (v. 16), and said to Zion, "Thou art my people"- that is, when he took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a church and state. Then he planted the heavens, and laid the foundation of the earth- made the new world; that is, brought forth order, and government, and beauty, from the confusion wherein before they were. This is the planting of the heavens, and laying the foundation of the earth in the world. And hence it is, that when mention is made of the destruction of a state and government, it is in the language that seems to set forth the end of the world. So Isaiah 34:4; which is yet but the destruction of the state of Edom. The like is also affirmed of the Roman Empire, Revelation 6:14; which the Jews constantly affirm to be intended by Edom in the prophets. And in our Saviour Christ's prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem, Matthew 24, he sets it out by expressions of the same importance. It is evident then, that, in the prophectical idiom and manner of speech, by "heavens" and "earth," the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, are often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which was then destroyed by the flood.

On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to the utter desolation and destruction of that was to be made of the Judaical church and state"- i.e., the Fall of Jerusalem in AD 70.

Providential Changes, An Argument For Universal Holiness by John Owen

A person at all familiar with the phraseology of the Old Testamen scriptures knows that the dissolution of the Mosaic economy, and the establishment of the Christian, is often spoken of as the removing of the old earth and heavens, and the creation of a new earth and heavens. . . . The period of the close of the one dispensation, and the commencement of the other, is spoken of as 'the last days' and 'the end of the world'; and is described as such a shaking of the earth and heavens, as should lead to the removal of the things which were shaken (Haggai 2:6; Hebrews 12:26-27).

Discourses And Sayings Of Our Lord by John Brown​

Peter describes this judgment as the destruction of "the present heavens and earth" (2 Peter 3:7), making way for "new heavens and a new earth" (3:10). Because of what may be called the "collapsing-universe" terminology used in this passage, many have mistakenly assumed that Peter is speaking of the final end of the physical heaven and earth, rather than the dissolution of the Old Covenant world order. As in Isaiah's description of the Mosaic Covenant with its very characteristic metaphorical usage of the terms heavens and earth in Isaiah 51:15-16.

Have you ever felt Matt. 5:17-18...

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. - Matt. 5:17-18​

... was quite contradictory to Hebrews 8:13?

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. - Heb. 8:13​

Well there isn't any contradiction here but sound hermeneutical uniformity.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. - Matthew 24:34

For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. - Luke 21:22​

 

[random person]

I hope people are enjoying these short posts on preterist doctrines, they aren't so much geared towards my fellow preterists but for those of disagreable eschatologies in order to better familiarize our visitors and guests.

The Last Days​

We are not living in the last days because the inspired authors of the New Testament explicitly said that they were living in the last days. The period from 30 A.D. to 70 A.D. was the last days of the Old Covenant. It was the transition period between the two covenants. All of the New Testament was written before 70 A.D. The last days is not a period that stretches on for millennia and continues in our time.

Hebrews 1:1-2

1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;



1 Timothy 4:1

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,



2 Timothy 3:1

1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:



1 Peter 1:5

5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



1 Peter 1:20-21

20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you



Acts 2:16-17

16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,

That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;

Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,

Your young men shall see visions,

Your old men shall dream dreams.



James 5:1-3

1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.



1 Peter 4:7

7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.



1 John 2:18-20

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.



Jude 1:17-18

17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts.



The authors of the New testament said they were living at the end of the age.

1 Corinthians 7:31

31 and those who use this world as not misusing it. For the form of this world is passing away.



1 Corinthians 10:11

11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.



Hebrews 9:26

26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.​

The Last Days - Preterism Matters

 

[LadyOfMystery]

Mod Hat ON

Hi Everyone
Just wanted to say this thread has been through a clean up and give a friendly reminder about this thread and area:


Members who chose to participate in this safe house should be partial preterists. This thread is for discussing end time events and prophecy (Biblical) from a partial preterists point of view. Fellowship posts from all members are welcome.

• This safe house thread is for those members who believe in the partial preterism.

• The safe house is for discussion and not for debate. Debate is defined as: "Engaging in argument by discussing opposing points."

• If a topic turns into a debate then staff will split the debate off into a new thread.

• Members who do not believe in partial preterism may post in fellowship only.

• No posts from this safe house may be quoted in other threads or used to start discussion threads in the main Eschatology forum.

Thanks!


Mod Hat OFF

 

[ebedmelech]

It continues to pop up in the Eschatology Forum and *the gap* in Daniel's seventy weeks, that dispensational eschatology inserts remains a "bone of contention".

Consider this by Gerhard F. Hasel in "pdf" format. It's rather scholarly in it's writing, but if you can stay with him, you understand it.

http://www.auss.info/auss_publication_file.php?pub_id=863&journal=1&type=pdf

 

[random person]

The Restoration of Israel| What Would That Mean?

My good friend Larry Siegle recently posted this article on FaceBook. The material is taken, in turn, from a book by the late James D. Bales. Dr. Bales was an excellent debater and tremendously logical thinker. He did a lot of writing on the issue of Dispensationalism, and his thoughts are always well reasoned and insightful. Be sure to read the article carefully.



"If we tried to go back to the Old Testament, it would not permit it. It would send us back to the New. The substance has arrived, so the shadow tells us to abide in the substance.

First, if we go back to Moses, he sends us to Christ. (Deut. 18:15-18; Acts 3:22, 23).

Second, if we ask Moses to be our mediator, he sends us to Christ the mediator (Heb. 8:6; 12:24).

Third, if we go back to the Old Covenant, it sends us back to the New (Jer. 31:31-34; Heb. 8:5-13; 13:20).

Fourth, if we go back to the blood of animals, it sends us to the sacrifice of Christ of which its sacrifices were but a shadow (Heb. 10:1-4).

Fifth, if we go back to the blood of animals, it sends us to the sacrifice of Christ of which the animal blood typified (Heb. 9:15-27; 23-28; 13:20).

Sixth, if we go back to the Old Temple, the way to heaven is not made manifest (Heb. 9:6-12, 24, 25, 26); so it sends us to Christ who has opened and made manifest the way (Heb. 10:19-22).

Seventh, if we go to the Old Testament priests, they send us back to the priesthood of believers (I Pet. 2:5, 9).

Eighth, if we go back to the Jewish kingdom, it sends us back to the everlasting kingdom which was being received in the first century (Hag. 2:6; Heb. 12:18-28; 13:20).

Ninth, if we go back to the Old Testament kingdom, it sends us back to the everlasting kingdom (Dan. 2:44; Heb. 12:28; 13:20).

Tenth, if we go back to the Old Testament Kings and High Priests, they send us to Christ the king and priest (Psa. 110:1-4; Heb. 7:11-22, 28; 8:4).

Eleventh, if we go to Abraham, he sends us to his seed, Christ (Gen. 22:18; Gal. 3:16-29).

We must not retreat from the substance to the shadow. Any system of the interpretation of prophecy which restores the shadow contradicts the Old Testament and the New Testament" -- James D. Bales (Prophecy and Premillennialism)162-163).


The Restoration of Israel| What Would That Mean? - Eschatology.org

 

[Danoh]

Boy are some on here married to the idol of their tradition!

"Jesus answered [Pilate, verse 10] Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except were it given thee from above: therefore he [Israel in accordance with this time of a fourth Gentile power they were under, Daniel 2:40] that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin," John19:11.

THAT is "the times of the Gentiles" - which refers to POLITICAL powers.

"Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should furst have been spoken to you [Luke 24:47's "beginning at Jerusalem," Acts 1:8's "and in all Judaea, and in Samaria"] but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles," Acts 13:46.

And said turn to the Gentiles is what Romans 11:25 has in mind as to its "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" and is SPIRITUAL.

The one is Political, the other, of a Spiritual matter.

 

[ebedmelech]

Boy are some on here married to the idol of their tradition!

"Jesus answered [Pilate, verse 10] Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except were it given thee from above: therefore he [Israel in accordance with this time of a fourth Gentile power they were under, Daniel 2:40] that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin," John19:11.

THAT is "the times of the Gentiles" - which refers to POLITICAL powers.

"Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should furst have been spoken to you [Luke 24:47's "beginning at Jerusalem," Acts 1:8's "and in all Judaea, and in Samaria"] but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles," Acts 13:46.

And said turn to the Gentiles is what Romans 11:25 has in mind as to its "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" and is SPIRITUAL.

The one is Political, the other, of a Spiritual matter.

Be advised Danoh, unless you are amil or partial preterist you may NOT post in this section.

Just as I don't post in the "dispensational safe house" section...you are not to post in here. This is "The Partial Preterist Non-Pre-Mid-Trib-Post-Trib Rapture Believers Safe House"

I'll be happy to engage you in the "Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum".

This is a SAFE HOUSE, which mean only those of the same view may post here. If you have any questions, see post #193.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Okay, but please don't make me work as hard as the dispensationalist do with this. You have a better basis in scripture than they do.

Many including myself believe the Roman Empire ceased in A.D. 476 with the fall of the Western Empire.

Anyone can believe what they want but the fact is though the Roman empire's capitol was moved to Constantinople in 333 AD. An It was never conquered until 1453 AD. An emperor never ceased to set on its throne until that day. The certainly considered themselves the actual Roman empire. As far as the western branch was concerned from that point on a co emperor, a lessor of two equals administered it. This was prophesied by John as the lamb with two horns. Added to his prophecy was that it was dressed up to look like a lamb, called itself Christian but spoke like the dragon and it certainly warred against the saints and overcame them.

What Daniel predicted is that the everlasting Messianic age or Kingdom of Christ would be fulfilled before the Fourth Beast expired.

You could say started but not fulfilled, otherwise it wouldn't use the words the rock became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Lets tie my answer with Daniel 7:

Let's look at Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The interpretation of this is also in Daniel 7: I came near to one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17. These great animals, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18. But the saints of the most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever......22. Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom........ 27. And the kingdom and empire, and the greatness of the dominion under the whole heaven, will be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all empires shall serve and obey him. Or as it said in Daniel 2: The kingdom will not be left to other people. This is as opposed to the time period that started with the 11th of ten Roman Emperors where: verse 21. I was looking, and the same horn made war with the saints, and overpowered them; 22. Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

And in the last days,God says, 'I will pour out my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams."
When was God going to pour out His spirit? In the Last Days.
When were the Last Days? The Day of Pentecost was during the Last Days.
"the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:"When was the sun turned into darkness and the moon into blood? When Jesus came back in A.D. 70 and judged Israel.
So in the last days two prophecies were fulfilled, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit which Jesus promised after He was glorified in Heaven and the Judgment of Israel. These two prophecies of Joel were fulfilled in the 1st century. The former on the day of Pentecost and the latter at A.D. 70.
Christ ascended, was enthroned and glorified by the day of Pentecost. While the Fourth Beast (Rome) expired in A.D. 476.
Jesus speaks of the fulfillment of this passage during His trial:
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven [cloud judgment e.g. Isaiah 19:1]

Yes, we all know the last days of the first covenant age were fulfilled in 70AD.That just doesn't address the last days of the age of the gentiles, Daniel 7:26. But the court will sit, and they shall take away his empire, to consume and to destroy it until the end.

So what are you asking is the Fourth Beast have any more prophecies to fulfill? No, the Fourth Beast expired in A.D. 476!

Fulfilled lots of prophecies. What is important is what has been being fulfilled since it fell in 1453 AD and that age when those four successive empires that warred against and overcame the saints ended. Which would be that mountain slowly but surely filling the earth. Which would be the peoples of the saints, or the nations that are heavily influenced by the Word of God and the Gospel being the dominate nations in the world. Which would be for the first time in human history, the peoples of those nations having the opportunity to have all the earthly promises of God made to past generations. Promises that never came to pass in their days now finally being fulfilled.

The earth has been trending now for 500 years towards more and more people being affected positively by the Government of God. Despite all the evil and wars Gods kingdom is growing. Pop culture end time prophecy not only demonically prophesies the exact opposite of what the future holds. It denies what has been trending for 500 years. It as false prophecy robs Gods people of a scriptural vision for the future which is why right now in the USA we have a very wicked and radical minority ruling over us. That's what Gods people believe their future holds! Satan's Tokyo Rose speaking through Gods saints telling them the imperial army is triumphing. Fascinating isn't it?

See there is the difference though. Yes the Government of God existed. Yes souls were saved but the Gospel was prevented by the Roman empire and all the other empires from bearing it's full fruit in the nations was present in. That is why a recognition of the age of the gentiles is important. To be able to see what God has wrought and to get a scriptural vision for the future. Later, I can tell you what brought on the big change starting the very year the Roman Empire fell.
Here is one article I wrote on this among many others if your interested.
What is the Government of God

 

[Danoh]

Be advised Danoh, unless you are amil or partial preterist you may NOT post in this section.

Just as I don't post in the "dispensational safe house" section...you are not to post in here. This is "The Partial Preterist Non-Pre-Mid-Trib-Post-Trib Rapture Believers Safe House"

I'll be happy to engage you in the "Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum".

This is a SAFE HOUSE, which mean only those of the same view may post here. If you have any questions, see post #193.

You're right; my apology. This site bounces around alot which is how I ended up posting here; thinking I was elsewhere. Again, my apology.

 

[random person]

Okay, but please don't make me work as hard as the dispensationalist do with this. You have a better basis in scripture than they do.

Anyone can believe what they want but the fact is though the Roman empire's capitol was moved to Constantinople in 333 AD. An It was never conquered until 1453 AD. An emperor never ceased to set on its throne until that day. The certainly considered themselves the actual Roman empire. As far as the western branch was concerned from that point on a co emperor, a lessor of two equals administered it. This was prophesied by John as the lamb with two horns. Added to his prophecy was that it was dressed up to look like a lamb, called itself Christian but spoke like the dragon and it certainly warred against the saints and overcame them.

Italy officially fell in 476 A.D. The last Roman Emperor Romulus Augustus was ousted by the German Goth Odoacer. This is the start of the Dark Ages in Europe.

You could say started but not fulfilled, otherwise it wouldn't use the words the rock became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Lets tie my answer with Daniel 7:

The interpretation of this is also in Daniel 7: I came near to one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. 17. These great animals, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. 18. But the saints of the most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever......22. Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom........ 27. And the kingdom and empire, and the greatness of the dominion under the whole heaven, will be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all empires shall serve and obey him. Or as it said in Daniel 2: The kingdom will not be left to other people. This is as opposed to the time period that started with the 11th of ten Roman Emperors where: verse 21. I was looking, and the same horn made war with the saints, and overpowered them; 22. Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The Ten Roman Emperors are Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius, Claudius, Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian. Verse 8, "another little horn" is Nero Caesar born one year after the death of Caesar Augustus, in which three horns plucked up by their roots are three Emperors who were assassinated ALL during Nero's lifetime, Tiberius, Caligula and Claudius to make way for the "another little horn." Verses 21 & 25, the same horn shall make war with the saints for 3.5 years, Nero Caesar persecuted the saints of Christ from A.D. 64 til his death A.D. 68.

Yes, we all know the last days of the first covenant age were fulfilled in 70AD.That just doesn't address the last days of the age of the gentiles, Daniel 7:26. But the court will sit, and they shall take away his empire, to consume and to destroy it until the end.


Fulfilled lots of prophecies. What is important is what has been being fulfilled since it fell in 1453 AD and that age when those four successive empires that warred against and overcame the saints ended. Which would be that mountain slowly but surely filling the earth. Which would be the peoples of the saints, or the nations that are heavily influenced by the Word of God and the Gospel being the dominate nations in the world. Which would be for the first time in human history, the peoples of those nations having the opportunity to have all the earthly promises of God made to past generations. Promises that never came to pass in their days now finally being fulfilled.

The earth has been trending now for 500 years towards more and more people being affected positively by the Government of God. Despite all the evil and wars Gods kingdom is growing. Pop culture end time prophecy not only demonically prophesies the exact opposite of what the future holds. It denies what has been trending for 500 years. It as false prophecy robs Gods people of a scriptural vision for the future which is why right now in the USA we have a very wicked and radical minority ruling over us. That's what Gods people believe their future holds! Satan's Tokyo Rose speaking through Gods saints telling them the imperial army is triumphing. Fascinating isn't it?

See there is the difference though. Yes the Government of God existed. Yes souls were saved but the Gospel was prevented by the Roman empire and all the other empires from bearing it's full fruit in the nations was present in. That is why a recognition of the age of the gentiles is important. To be able to see what God has wrought and to get a scriptural vision for the future. Later, I can tell you what brought on the big change starting the very year the Roman Empire fell.
Here is one article I wrote on this among many others if your interested.
What is the Government of God

I agree it did fulfill a lot of prophecies, but Jesus was given the keys to the Kingdom when He sat down at the right hand of God. This kingdom is not a future kingdom. It began in the days of the Roman Empire. It overcame Rome and will overcome all the kingdoms of this world. It will last forever.