The Palestinian-Jewish issue in a nutsell

[MikeK]

My question is quite clear too--

Is Hamas a terrorist organization or not?

My second question is also clear--

Does the Hamas charter indicate that it is their DUTY to kill the Jews?

If the answer to both of the questions is "yes", then why are we helping Hamas and criticizing Israel for protecting its citizens by targeting the Hamas armaments and the tunnels Hamas uses to harm the Israelis?

The answer to both is yes, but your premise that if Hamas is a terrorist organization that wants to kill Jews then anything Israel does in response is justified is faulty. Israel has been defending her citizens against these attacks successfully. Israel is not within her rights to use heavy explosives which kill innocent people and call it "defense". Israel should defend herself from Attacks, Israel should pursue those that attack her. Israel should not bind the Palestinian people and Israel should not take part in measures that kill innocents. These measures are particularly unwarranted when one considers just how small the threat to Israeli civilians has proven to be. Read up on your Just War Doctrine. Embrace the Truths of Christ's Church. Come, tell whole truths, come live in the light.

 

[AMDG]

Do you think it is right and fair to force people to live under death threats and air raid sirens 24/7 because of the shelling? You know that houses sold in Israel are to have "safe rooms" because of all the shelling? Is it right or fair to force people to live not knowing if Hamas is going to kidnap and brutally murder one's family (and perhaps drag the body through the streets like it did with the Israeli shoulder) or sneak back across the border to have a celebration (like was done when the three boys that were murdered and started this)? :::Just for information, this was not the FIRST time Israeli innocent citizens were brutally murdered and the perps snuck back across the border to have a celebration--it's just probably the first time the press reported on it. :::

You know the U.N. formed Israel--the Jewish people that were thrown out of Europe could join the Jewish people living in middle east protectorate of the British. It planned to form a Palestine land too. Why didn't it? Was it because the Arab-Muslims in the area refused (also refused to live in peace) and the Arab-Muslim countries then annexed the land)?

 

[MikeK]

Why do you persist in this line of questioning as to whether I support Hamas, it should be quite clear by my statements that I do not. The fact that Hamas is gravely wrong does not justify an out-if-proportion killing of Palestinian civilians though from the standpoint of Catholic morality. While we shouldn't expect Jews or Muslims to embrace Just War Doctrine, we should always call for it to be followed, just as we would call on people who believe that abortion is morally acceptable not to have abortions.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

"Peace will come when Arabs love their children more than they hate us."
- Golda Meir, 1957

 

[AvilaSurfer]

"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children."
- Golda Meir

 

[AMDG]

"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children."
- Golda Meir

Hamas is using the children and the bloodshed to PURPOSELY isolate Israel. (And it seems that they are doing a good job--when they fire rockets from apartment buildings and hospitals or hide weapons in schools and then when Israel targets the weapon, Hamas simply cries "Look what the big, bad Jews did! Targeting innocents!" and we believe that and fail to see what is being done.) Remember the Hamas charter to destroy the Jews. And remember that Hamas was the aggressor.

If peace is wanted, then we should be looking to Hamas to stop their violence, destroy those tunnels, and stop hiding weapons in schools, hospital and among the civilian population!

 

[Antigone]

If I want to read up on the Israel-Palestine conflict, eaglerising.com won't be the place I go to...

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Hamas has had several opportunities to end the violence, but they refuse to accept a cease fire. They are saying "Unless you accept our terms, we will keep firing missiles." And Israel is saying "OK if you won't stop firing, we're going to make sure you stop", which they have every right to do.

 

[S.ilvio]

I have no intention of playing your emotionally driven game here. Appeals to emotion are truly distasteful to me and, in the end, I find them to be the hallmark of a badly thought out point.

In this discussion, I haven't seen you once condemn Hamas for hiding weapons among the civilians. I haven't seen you once condemn them for intentionally endangering the lives of those who look to them for help. If I missed it, let me know. I sometimes forget things.

I condemn both sides for the deaths of civilians, but I do understand that Israel cannot simply sit back and let Hamas do as they please in terms of firing rockets into civilian areas. Make no mistake, Hamas aims at civilians deliberately. I don't believe that Israel wants civilian casualties, but it unfortunately happens.

I have condemned Hamas elsewhere in this forum for doing exactly that.

You can live with children dying as long as they're Palesrtinian children. You said yourself, better their civilians than ours. As if killing children will ever stop Hamas. What a ridiculous position to take.

But be that as it may. Is there a line in the sand whereby youwill end supporting the IDF massacre of Palestinian children, or will you continue to support their actions indefinitely..?

 

[brewmama]

I have condemned Hamas elsewhere in this forum for doing exactly that.

You can live with children dying as long as they're Palesrtinian children. You said yourself, better their civilians than ours. As if killing children will ever stop Hamas. What a ridiculous position to take.

But be that as it may. Is there a line in the sand whereby youwill end supporting the IDF massacre of Palestinian children, or will you continue to support their actions indefinitely..?

As has been mentioned, "Peace will come when Arabs love their children more than they hate Israel.”

 

[S.ilvio]

As has been mentioned, "Peace will come when Arabs love their children more than they hate Israel.”

Yeah...........

 

[LoAmmi]

You can live with children dying as long as they're Palesrtinian children. .... What a ridiculous position to take.

Indeed and if I had said anything of the sort you might have a point but now you're just trying to put words in my mouth because you are biased.

What I said is that if I'm in a war and I have to choose between my civilians dying and theirs (key words: HAVE TO CHOOSE), I would choose theirs because it's my responsibility to protect my own.

 

[MikeK]

Hamas has had several opportunities to end the violence, but they refuse to accept a cease fire. They are saying "Unless you accept our terms, we will keep firing missiles." And Israel is saying "OK if you won't stop firing, we're going to make sure you stop", which they have every right to do.

Israel will not stop Hamas. Their tactics will fail, as they always have, and more Palestinians will grow up believing Israel to be a barbaric enemy that must be fought, like they always have. I think that Israel could win more flies with honey and should immediately withdraw from all settlements and immediately stop any efforts to isolate the Palestinians from the outside world. My Church recently hosted a group of Palestinian Catholics, according to them, they have much more to fear from Israelis than they do from their Muslim neighbors, who treat them quite well. Israel interferes with their freedom of travel and commerce and heavily restricts shipments coming in and out. That might put Israeli minds at ease, but it will not make Israel safer in the long term - just the opposite in fact.

 

[S.ilvio]

Indeed and if I had said anything of the sort you might have a point but now you're just trying to put words in my mouth because you are biased.

What I said is that if I'm in a war and I have to choose between my civilians dying and theirs (key words: HAVE TO CHOOSE), I would choose theirs because it's my responsibility to protect my own.

You do not have to choose to kill and permanantly disable Palestinian children. The IDF has the choice not to knowingly do this. Did you not know of this choice..?

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Yeah...........

Good response. I think I'll take the opinion of a leader who was directly involved in the situation.....over a message board poster.

 

[LoAmmi]

You do not have to choose to kill and permanantly disable Palestinian children. The IDF has the choice not to knowingly do this. Did you not know of this choice..?

I don't have to choose to do anything. I'm an American citizen living in Virginia and have absolutely no say in the political or military policy of Israel. Thankfully, the biggest decisions I have to make that effect other people is if I choose to wear pants or not. (I am very pro-pants though, so I hope that doesn't also offend you if you think shorts are being oppressed by pants).

I don't believe the IDF, as policy, intends to kill civilians. I think they would ideally want to kill no civilians and only kill those responsible for the attacks. I believe that doctors truly desire only to remove the cancerous tissue but other tissue will be removed along with it due to a lack of complete precision when removing it. (Lest you decide to badmouth me by this statement, those carrying out attacks on civilians and hiding among them to use them as shields are the cancer, not the innocents. We clear? Good).

 

[brewmama]

Israel will not stop Hamas. Their tactics will fail, as they always have, and more Palestinians will grow up believing Israel to be a barbaric enemy that must be fought, like they always have. I think that Israel could win more flies with honey and should immediately withdraw from all settlements and immediately stop any efforts to isolate the Palestinians from the outside world. My Church recently hosted a group of Palestinian Catholics, according to them, they have much more to fear from Israelis than they do from their Muslim neighbors, who treat them quite well. Israel interferes with their freedom of travel and commerce and heavily restricts shipments coming in and out. That might put Israeli minds at ease, but it will not make Israel safer in the long term - just the opposite in fact.

You do know that they have tried that ("could win more flies with honey and should immediately withdraw from all settlements and immediately stop any efforts to isolate the Palestinians from the outside world.") Without success.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMlsf_xBm0s

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Israel will not stop Hamas. Their tactics will fail, as they always have, and more Palestinians will grow up believing Israel to be a barbaric enemy that must be fought, like they always have. I think that Israel could win more flies with honey and should immediately withdraw from all settlements and immediately stop any efforts to isolate the Palestinians from the outside world. My Church recently hosted a group of Palestinian Catholics, according to them, they have much more to fear from Israelis than they do from their Muslim neighbors, who treat them quite well. Israel interferes with their freedom of travel and commerce and heavily restricts shipments coming in and out. That might put Israeli minds at ease, but it will not make Israel safer in the long term - just the opposite in fact.

Re: The bolded part - Then Hamas will continue to be 100% responsible for all civilian casualties.

 

[S.ilvio]

I don't have to choose to do anything. I'm an American citizen living in Virginia and have absolutely no say in the political or military policy of Israel. Thankfully, the biggest decisions I have to make that effect other people is if I choose to wear pants or not. (I am very pro-pants though, so I hope that doesn't also offend you if you think shorts are being oppressed by pants).

I don't believe the IDF, as policy, intends to kill civilians. I think they would ideally want to kill no civilians and only kill those responsible for the attacks. I believe that doctors truly desire only to remove the cancerous tissue but other tissue will be removed along with it due to a lack of complete precision when removing it. (Lest you decide to badmouth me by this statement, those carrying out attacks on civilians and hiding among them to use them as shields are the cancer, not the innocents. We clear? Good).

So, in conclusion, you will tolerate as many children killed by the IDF as they deem fit. You will give them a complete pass...

 

[LoAmmi]

So, in conclusion, you will tolerate as many children killed by the IDF as they deem fit. You will give them a complete pass...

Yes, that's exactly what I said....

Just like you'll give a complete pass to Hamas for whatever actions they deem fit.