The orgins of Yahweh

[cgaviria]

Untrue; John 1:3 precludes Jesus Christ being created, because He created "all," (or more accurately, "all things," the correct reading of panta).

I have already proved that "things" was not part of the original text, just "all", and "all" implies all beings, not all things. This coincides with the Genesis account as the earth and water already existed before Iesou Christ began speaking, thus proving that all "things" were not created by Iesou, but rather, all "beings". Anybody who denies this is willfully denying the truth to push his own doctrines and pretenses. Its pretty obvious what the scriptures teach to those who actually seek the truth and don't just accept what the mainstream churches teach.

 

[Commander Xenophon]

I have already proved that "things" was not part of the original text, just "all", and "all" implies all beings, not all things.

You did not prove this: panta means "all things" whereas "all life" is panil zoen, and appears in that form elsewhere in the New Testament. So if anything you have been proven wrong.

This coincides with the Genesis account as the earth and water already existed before Iesou Christ began speaking,

No it didn't...

thus proving that all "things" were not created by Iesou, but rather, all "beings".

No, because your contention is unsupported by the text.

Anybody who denies this is willfully denying the truth to push his own doctrines and pretenses.

Excuse me? I'm not the one who has gone from denying Jesus is God, when the New Testament says He is, to denying YHWH is God, in order to support my exegesis.

Its pretty obvious what the scriptures teach to those who actually seek the truth and don't just accept what mainstream religion teaches.

If it were "pretty obvious," then most people would be able to see it. Obvious doesn't mean correct, of course, but you are appealing to an authority your interpretation just doesn't have.

I mean, let's just take a step back and see where we are, right?

You say the Holy Spirit is not God and you disagree with most Christians.
You say Jesus is not God, and you disagree with most Christians.
Now you say YHWH is not God, and you disagree with almost all Christians, and with the Jews.

The only people who said YHWH was not God were the Gnostics and Marcionites, but then, this was as part of a cosmology in which the Old Testament deity was evil and Lucifer, good and virtuous. So obviously you disagree with them, to your credit.

But where does this leave us? That no one alive, past or present, agrees with your interpretation. Does that mean it's wrong? On that basis, no, because that would be appeal to authority. But it does obviously mean your worldview is not "pretty obvious," not even "remotely obvious."

Now what is obvious can be wrong; the truth can be subtle. But if you're going to appeal to authority, which is fallacious, at least appeal to authority that exists.

 

[cgaviria]

You did not prove this: panta means "all things" whereas "all life" is panil zoen, and appears in that form elsewhere in the New Testament. So if anything you have been proven wrong.



No it didn't...



No, because your contention is unsupported by the text.



Excuse me? I'm not the one who has gone from denying Jesus is God, when the New Testament says He is, to denying YHWH is God, in order to support my exegesis.



If it were "pretty obvious," then most people would be able to see it. Obvious doesn't mean correct, of course, but you are appealing to an authority your interpretation just doesn't have.

I mean, let's just take a step back and see where we are, right?

You say the Holy Spirit is not God and you disagree with most Christians.
You say Jesus is not God, and you disagree with most Christians.
Now you say YHWH is not God, and you disagree with almost all Christians, and with the Jews.

The only people who said YHWH was not God were the Gnostics and Marcionites, but then, this was as part of a cosmology in which the Old Testament deity was evil and Lucifer, good and virtuous. So obviously you disagree with them, to your credit.

But where does this leave us? That no one alive, past or present, agrees with your interpretation. Does that mean it's wrong? On that basis, no, because that would be appeal to authority. But it does obviously mean your worldview is not "pretty obvious," not even "remotely obvious."

Now what is obvious can be wrong; the truth can be subtle. But if you're going to appeal to authority, which is fallacious, at least appeal to authority that exists.

Panta means "all". It is you in your own interpretation that is adding "things". Its quite simple and obvious.

 

[Commander Xenophon]

Panta means "all". It is you in your own interpretation that is adding "things".

Not my "own interpretation" because all major English Bible translations since Coverdale render it "all things." Things is implied, in the Greek. Greek has a different syntax than English, so where we would say "all things," they would say all, because "things" is implied. Greek is a more elegant and expressive language. I'm biased, of course, but you really can't beat it for syntactic elegance; nothing else comes close, even Latin.

Its quite simple and obvious.

Again, its not obvious, because if it were, there would be at least one other person than yourself trying to make this argument. It is simple, however, or should I say "simplistic," the kind of error a casual reader might make.

 

[supersoldier71]

You did not prove this: panta means "all things" whereas "all life" is panil zoen, and appears in that form elsewhere in the New Testament. So if anything you have been proven wrong.



No it didn't...



No, because your contention is unsupported by the text.



Excuse me? I'm not the one who has gone from denying Jesus is God, when the New Testament says He is, to denying YHWH is God, in order to support my exegesis.



If it were "pretty obvious," then most people would be able to see it. Obvious doesn't mean correct, of course, but you are appealing to an authority your interpretation just doesn't have.

I mean, let's just take a step back and see where we are, right?

You say the Holy Spirit is not God and you disagree with most Christians.
You say Jesus is not God, and you disagree with most Christians.
Now you say YHWH is not God, and you disagree with almost all Christians, and with the Jews.

The only people who said YHWH was not God were the Gnostics and Marcionites, but then, this was as part of a cosmology in which the Old Testament deity was evil and Lucifer, good and virtuous. So obviously you disagree with them, to your credit.

But where does this leave us? That no one alive, past or present, agrees with your interpretation. Does that mean it's wrong? On that basis, no, because that would be appeal to authority. But it does obviously mean your worldview is not "pretty obvious," not even "remotely obvious."

Now what is obvious can be wrong; the truth can be subtle. But if you're going to appeal to authority, which is fallacious, at least appeal to authority that exists.

So who does @cgaviria think is God then?

He seems to be running out of viable candidates.

His assertion would mean that the Creator, Sustainer and Redeemer of all things did not actually take a deep personal interest in His creation and personally redeem it (US!) from sin and death. On some level, it's absurd to think that a created being of any sort could bear the full, perfect wrath of the Father for the sins of the elect, and then by that created being's OWN power and authority, recover from it.

So who, exactly did all that, if not Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Trinity, fully God and fully man?

 

[cgaviria]

So who does @cgaviria think is God then?

He seems to be running out of viable candidates.

His assertion would mean that the Creator, Sustainer and Redeemer of all things did not actually take a deep personal interest in His creation and personally redeem it (US!) from sin and death. On some level, it's absurd to think that a created being of any sort could bear the full, perfect wrath of the Father for the sins of the elect, and then by that created being's OWN power and authority, recover from it.

So who, exactly did all that, if not Jesus Christ, Second Person of the Trinity, fully God and fully man?

God the Father did all these things, through Iesou Christ, hence,

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:6 [NIV])

All are FROM the Father, the one God.
All are THROUGH Iesou Christ, Lord of God's creation.

 

[roamer_1]

YHWH means I AM WHO I AM

Another meaning in YHWH is 'Behold the Hand, Behold the Nail'. That should tell you something.

the angel YHWH

You seem to abuse the word 'angel'... 'Angel' simply means 'messenger'. It doesn't even have to be a divine being - Men are called 'malak' in scripture. Hence the distinction you have built between the 'Angel of the Lord' and Yeshua need not be there. Yeshua himself could very well be this 'messenger', without doing damage to the text.

I would submit that is the simple, yet awesome, solution.

whenever the angel YHWH spoke, he spoke in representation of the Father, and thus when this angel spoke and said things like "I will do this..." or "I will do that...", it was the Father speaking through YHWH

No. The Angel of the Lord is a special exception. One of the things that sets him apart is that he accepts worship. No other divine being is shown doing that. This is no mere avatar, or angel acting in stead. The messenger of YHWH IS YHWH. How that works is beyond my ken. But the likely candidate for that particular post is Yeshua.

 

[redleghunter]

This is why you people misunderstand so many scriptures, you can't even get someone else's quote right. There is a great significance to the meaning of names in the bible. YHWH means I AM WHO I AM, or even I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE, so whenever the angel YHWH spoke, he spoke in representation of the Father, and thus when this angel spoke and said things like "I will do this..." or "I will do that...", it was the Father speaking through YHWH, hence why the name means I AM WHO I AM, because this angel's every words and actions reflected the words and actions of the Father who is I AM. So although this angel bore the name of I AM WHO I AM that also reflects the identity of the Father, these are still two distinct beings. But they share an identity of "I AM" in common because both beings exist, hence I AM. Even Iesou Christ affirmed he is I AM before Abraham, because he existed before Abraham. I AM is an affirmation of existence, although not itself an actual name as YHWH is a name, or Iesou is a name, and both of these names given to these two beings describe the Father in their respective meanings, as both of these beings are images of the Father. And even though this angel and Iesou are I AM because they exist as the Father exists, this identity still does not imply that either one of them is the Father, but rather, just as the Father exists, so do they. The Father does not have his own name, as he is not a created being to be given a name, but rather, he is described by the names given to beings that he has made to image him, hence YHWH = I AM WHO I AM, and Iesou = I AM WHO I AM Saves. If you can't understand these matters you cannot understand other matters, like predetermination, and how the Father has created all things for his own purpose and glory, which includes good and evil, and thus you cannot properly begin to fear God to thus attain actual wisdom.

You have not established this "YHWH angel" image. There is not one passage or verse which supports your claim. Nor did you provide evidence there are lesser divine creatures with the Name of Almighty God. God confirms He is YHWH. I showed you the complete passages.

You have to start with truth. Here is the first truth to start with:

Deuteronomy 6: Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

6 `And this [is] the command, the statutes and the judgments which Jehovah your God hath commanded to teach you, to do in the land which ye are passing over thither to possess it,

2 so that thou dost fear Jehovah thy God, to keep all His statutes and His commands, which I am commanding thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all days of thy life, and so that thy days are prolonged.

3 `And thou hast heard, O Israel, and observed to do, that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest multiply exceedingly, as Jehovah, God of thy fathers, hath spoken to thee, [in] the land flowing with milk and honey.

4 `Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God [is] one Jehovah;

5 and thou hast loved Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might,

6 and these words which I am commanding thee to-day have been on thine heart,

7 and thou hast repeated them to thy sons, and spoken of them in thy sitting in thine house, and in thy walking in the way, and in thy lying down, and in thy rising up,

8 and hast bound them for a sign upon thy hand, and they have been for frontlets between thine eyes,


There is a difference between studying the Bible and coming to theological conclusions, contrasted with having a conclusion and making the Bible fit it. The former is exegesis and the latter is eisegesis. Knowing the difference is important.

 

[redleghunter]

Another meaning in YHWH is 'Behold the Hand, Behold the Nail'. That should tell you something.

Indeed, and Praise God for such beauty in His revelation to mankind.

Yeshua's blessings be upon you brother.

 

[roamer_1]

Indeed, and Praise God for such beauty in His revelation to mankind.

Amen, brother! It is true!

Yeshua's blessings be upon you brother.

And his peace upon you. Thank you for your kind words.

 

[cgaviria]

You have not established this "YHWH angel" image. There is not one passage or verse which supports your claim. Nor did you provide evidence there are lesser divine creatures with the Name of Almighty God. God confirms He is YHWH. I showed you the complete passages.

You have to start with truth. Here is the first truth to start with:

Deuteronomy 6: Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

6 `And this [is] the command, the statutes and the judgments which Jehovah your God hath commanded to teach you, to do in the land which ye are passing over thither to possess it,

2 so that thou dost fear Jehovah thy God, to keep all His statutes and His commands, which I am commanding thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all days of thy life, and so that thy days are prolonged.

3 `And thou hast heard, O Israel, and observed to do, that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest multiply exceedingly, as Jehovah, God of thy fathers, hath spoken to thee, [in] the land flowing with milk and honey.

4 `Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God [is] one Jehovah;

5 and thou hast loved Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might,

6 and these words which I am commanding thee to-day have been on thine heart,

7 and thou hast repeated them to thy sons, and spoken of them in thy sitting in thine house, and in thy walking in the way, and in thy lying down, and in thy rising up,

8 and hast bound them for a sign upon thy hand, and they have been for frontlets between thine eyes,


There is a difference between studying the Bible and coming to theological conclusions, contrasted with having a conclusion and making the Bible fit it. The former is exegesis and the latter is eisegesis. Knowing the difference is important.

I already provided the scripture assertions that the being in the burning bush was an angel, and that this angel identified himself by name as YHWH. I also provided scripture assertions demonstrated that the law was indeed given by angels before Iesou Christ came.

 

[cgaviria]

Another meaning in YHWH is 'Behold the Hand, Behold the Nail'. That should tell you something.



You seem to abuse the word 'angel'... 'Angel' simply means 'messenger'. It doesn't even have to be a divine being - Men are called 'malak' in scripture. Hence the distinction you have built between the 'Angel of the Lord' and Yeshua need not be there. Yeshua himself could very well be this 'messenger', without doing damage to the text.

I would submit that is the simple, yet awesome, solution.



No. The Angel of the Lord is a special exception. One of the things that sets him apart is that he accepts worship. No other divine being is shown doing that. This is no mere avatar, or angel acting in stead. The messenger of YHWH IS YHWH. How that works is beyond my ken. But the likely candidate for that particular post is Yeshua.

The use of the word messenger may be used interchangeably between men and beings that live in the heaven, however, these two types of beings are obviously different. So clearly, whenever I use the word angel, it is referring to heavenly beings. A heavenly being is not a man, nor is a man a heavenly being. No matter if the a same word is used between both types. Obvious.

 

[roamer_1]

The use of the word messenger may be used interchangeably between men and beings that live in the heaven, however, these two types of beings are obviously different. So clearly, whenever I use the word angel, it is referring to heavenly beings. A heavenly being is not a man, nor is a man a heavenly being. No matter if the a same word is used between both types. Obvious.

Yet this being bears the Name. The only one that bears the name of a father is his son.

And this being accepts worship belonging to the Father.
The only person the Father has allowed the right to accept worship is the Prince.

These are birthright things.

 

[roamer_1]

however, these two types of beings are obviously different.

And btw, there are not but two types.

 

[redleghunter]

I already provided the scripture assertions that the being in the burning bush was an angel, and that this angel identified himself by name as YHWH. I also provided scripture assertions demonstrated that the law was indeed given by angels before Iesou Christ came.

Yes but what makes you think the revelation at the burning bush was not truly YHWH? We know from the new covenant YHWH manifest in the flesh, His full Deity bodily.

 

[cgaviria]

Yes but what makes you think the revelation at the burning bush was not truly YHWH? We know from the new covenant YHWH manifest in the flesh, His full Deity bodily.

He was YHWH, the angel that declared himself to be YHWH. He was not, however, the Father.

 

[redleghunter]

He was YHWH, the angel that declared himself to be YHWH. He was not, however, the Father.

I don't know how much more clear to make this other than showing you again how God proclaims His Name.

Exodus 20: Lexham English Bible (LEB)

20 And God spoke all these words, saying, 2 “I am Yahweh, your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt, from the house of slaves.

3 “There shall be for you no other gods before me.

Deuteronomy 6: Lexham English Bible (LEB)


6 “Now this is the commandment, the rules and the regulations, that Yahweh your God charged to teach to you for you to observe in the land that you are about to cross over to take possession of it, 2 so that you may revere Yahweh your God by keeping all his statutes and his commandments that I am commanding you, you and your children and grandchildren, all the days of your life and so you may live lives. 3 And you shall hear, Israel, and be careful to observe these instructions, so that it may go well for you and that you may multiply greatly, just as Yahweh, the God of your ancestors, you, in a land with milk and honey.

4 “Hear, Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is unique. 5 And you shall love Yahweh your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your might. 6 And these words that I am commanding you today shall be on your heart. 7 And you shall recite them to your children, and you shall talk about them at the time of your living in your house and at the time of your going on the road and at the time of your lying down and at the time of your rising up. 8 And you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as an emblem between your eyes. 9 And you shall write them on the doorframe of your house and on your gates.

 

[cgaviria]

I don't know how much more clear to make this other than showing you again how God proclaims His Name.

Exodus 20: Lexham English Bible (LEB)

20 And God spoke all these words, saying, 2 “I am Yahweh, your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt, from the house of slaves.

3 “There shall be for you no other gods before me.

Deuteronomy 6: Lexham English Bible (LEB)


6 “Now this is the commandment, the rules and the regulations, that Yahweh your God charged to teach to you for you to observe in the land that you are about to cross over to take possession of it, 2 so that you may revere Yahweh your God by keeping all his statutes and his commandments that I am commanding you, you and your children and grandchildren, all the days of your life and so you may live lives. 3 And you shall hear, Israel, and be careful to observe these instructions, so that it may go well for you and that you may multiply greatly, just as Yahweh, the God of your ancestors, you, in a land with milk and honey.

4 “Hear, Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is unique. 5 And you shall love Yahweh your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your might. 6 And these words that I am commanding you today shall be on your heart. 7 And you shall recite them to your children, and you shall talk about them at the time of your living in your house and at the time of your going on the road and at the time of your lying down and at the time of your rising up. 8 And you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as an emblem between your eyes. 9 And you shall write them on the doorframe of your house and on your gates.

Let me draw it for you, perhaps you will understand,

God the Father (Most High, he alone predetermines all things, he alone has infinite knowledge, he alone is omnipresent)
God Iseou Christ (lesser than the Father, image of the Father)
God angel YHWH (lesser than the Father, lesser than Iesou Christ, image of the Father)

YHWH = I AM WHO I AM

Whatever YHWH says he will do, it is the Father that does it, through YHWH, as YHWH is a representation and image of the Father. So none of those verses contradict what I am telling you concerning YHWH being an angel in full representation of the Father speaking on behalf of the Father.

 

[redleghunter]

Let me draw it for you, perhaps you will understand,

God the Father (Most High, he alone predetermines all things, he alone has infinite knowledge, he alone is omnipresent)
God Iseou Christ (lesser than the Father, image of the Father)
God angel YHWH (lesser than the Father, lesser than Iesou Christ, image of the Father)

YHWH = I AM WHO I AM

Whatever YHWH says he will do, it is the Father that does it, through YHWH, as YHWH is a representation and image of the Father. So none of those verses contradict what I am telling you concerning YHWH being an angel in full representation of the Father speaking on behalf of the Father.

I presented you with a Truth from Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 6. YHWH proclaims He is God and there are no other gods.

I gave you a deductive Biblical truth---Hear, Israel, Yahweh our God. You are engaging in inductive reasoning trying to come to a conclusion that is not Biblically supported.

More:

Zephaniah 3: Lexham English Bible (LEB)


14 Shout for joy, O daughter of Zion!
Cry aloud, O Israel!
Rejoice and be jubilant with all your heart,
O daughter of Jerusalem!

15 Yahweh has annulled your judgments;
he has turned away your enemies.
The king of Israel, Yahweh, is in your midst;
you shall no longer fear misfortune.

16 On that day it shall be said to Jerusalem,
“Fear not, O Zion;
your hands shall not hang limp.

17 Yahweh your God is in your midst;
a mighty warrior who saves.
He shall rejoice over you with joy;
he renews you in his love;
he will exult over you with singing.

Jeremiah 32: Lexham English Bible (LEB)

26 And the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah, saying 27 “Look, I am Yahweh, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for me?”

36 “So now therefore, thus says Yahweh, the God of Israel, concerning this city, of which you are saying, ‘It will be given into the hand of the king of Babylon by the sword, and by the famine, and by the plague’:


Jeremiah 33: Lexham English Bible (LEB)

33 And the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah a second time while he was still held back in the courtyard of the guard, saying, 2 “Thus says Yahweh who made the earth, Yahweh who formed it to establish it, Yahweh is his name: 3 ‘Call to me, and I will answer you, and I will tell you great things and inaccessible things that you have not known.’ 4 For thus says Yahweh, the God of Israel, concerning the houses of this city and concerning the houses of the kings of Judah, that were torn down to make a defense against the siege ramps and against the sword:



I just scratched the surface. There are more declarations of "thus says Yahweh, the God of Israel."


And as indicated earlier:




Exodus 20: Lexham English Bible (LEB)

20 And God spoke all these words, saying, 2 “I am Yahweh, your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt, from the house of slaves.

3 “There shall be for you no other gods before me.

Deuteronomy 6: Lexham English Bible (LEB)


6 “Now this is the commandment, the rules and the regulations, that Yahweh your God charged to teach to you for you to observe in the land that you are about to cross over to take possession of it, 2 so that you may revere Yahweh your God by keeping all his statutes and his commandments that I am commanding you, you and your children and grandchildren, all the days of your life and so you may live lives. 3 And you shall hear, Israel, and be careful to observe these instructions, so that it may go well for you and that you may multiply greatly, just as Yahweh, the God of your ancestors, you, in a land with milk and honey.

4 “Hear, Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is unique. 5 And you shall love Yahweh your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your might. 6 And these words that I am commanding you today shall be on your heart. 7 And you shall recite them to your children, and you shall talk about them at the time of your living in your house and at the time of your going on the road and at the time of your lying down and at the time of your rising up. 8 And you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as an emblem between your eyes. 9 And you shall write them on the doorframe of your house and on your gates.(LEB)

This is hard evidence Biblical Truth. One must start with the basics to understand the complexities.

 

[Dkh587]

The use of the word messenger may be used interchangeably between men and beings that live in the heaven, however, these two types of beings are obviously different. So clearly, whenever I use the word angel, it is referring to heavenly beings. A heavenly being is not a man, nor is a man a heavenly being. No matter if the a same word is used between both types. Obvious.

you're mistaken, yet again.


“And the angel of YAH appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.”
‭‭Judges‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:”
‭‭Judges‬ ‭13:6‬ ‭KJV‬


“Then Manoah entreated YAH, and said, O my Lord, let the man of God which thou didst send come again unto us, and teach us what we shall do unto the child that shall be born. And God hearkened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again unto the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah her husband was not with her. And the woman made haste, and ran, and shewed her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day.”
‭‭Judges‬ ‭13:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of YAH ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground. But the angel of YAH did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of YAH. And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.”
‭‭Judges‬ ‭13:20-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This man ascended into the flame of a sacrifice and they said this same man was God

This messenger/Angel is more than just a man... He is God