The orgins of Yahweh

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redleghunter

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There is indeed only one true God, the Father. And there are also little gods. Both things are true and both things are taught by scripture.


The way you explain the 'little gods' evokes some Asian understanding of Chi or Prana. Meaning a 'force' can transmit its life force to others making them a form of the originator. Understand this is not Biblical at all as only God can be God. Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 6 again come to mind.

What I have presented in multitude of Biblical passages is that there is only One True God and His Name is YHWH. No other can be named as God YHWH not even higher or lesser created beings. What I presented with the various OT passages where God says "He is One and His Name is YHWH and worship no others He is a jealous God", is present what is an absolute.

What you are presenting is an inductive approach where you take 'particulars' of certain words and attributes and try to reverse engineer the Nature of God and then present this as the correct understanding. Based on this reverse engineering, or inductive approach you have given divine attributes to entities that are not God, and reduced clear absolutes of the Nature of God clearly declared in the Bible (eg. Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 6).

Start with the absolutes first and then work on understanding the particulars. The absolutes are very clear in the Bible.
 
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cgaviria

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All things [Greek Panta, without a modifier meaning "all things"] were made by Him, and without Him not one thing [according to greek scholars who know the language better than I do, this is a specific, strong statement that is best interpreted "not even a single thing"] was made that was made.

If everything was made through Jesus Christ, and not even one thing that was made was made without Him, He could clearly not be a created being.

Now again, because you claim to take scripture "for what it says," without modifying this verse and including words that aren't there, how would you dispute this?

This is simple to dispute. The Greek word for panta means "all", just "all", so the text should read,

All through him existed, and apart from him existed not even one which exists. (John 1:3)

You can even see another usage of the word here http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/28-19.htm . If a translator adds "things" to "all", he does so at his own interpretation, not because "things" is part of the original text.

You interpret "all" to mean "all things", as most do, I interpret "all" to mean "all beings". My claim reconciles with the Genesis account better than the "all things" claim because the earth and water already existed before Iesou began speaking certain things into existence, which started with "let there be light!", so already is the claim that "all things" were made by Iesou not true, however, all life was indeed created by Iesou, so when John 1:3 says "all", it means all living beings, all life, all who are alive, not "all things", as some things already existed before Iesou began creating. You can't refute that what I'm saying is logical.
 
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redleghunter

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If you take scripture for what it says, can we revisit the verses that you don't take for what they say?

For instance, John 1:3, Exodus 3:4, Genesis 2:4, Hebrews 1:1-10, Isaiah 45:5... we can start there and you can take those for what they say. If you don't, you testify against yourself.

Starting from absolutes is the logical and proven way to proceed. I agree. Add Isaiah 44:6 too.
 
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cgaviria

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The way you explain the 'little gods' evokes some Asian understanding of Chi or Prana. Meaning a 'force' can transmit its life force to others making them a form of the originator. Understand this is not Biblical at all as only God can be God. Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 6 again come to mind.

What I have presented in multitude of Biblical passages is that there is only One True God and His Name is YHWH. No other can be named as God YHWH not even higher or lesser created beings. What I presented with the various OT passages where God says "He is One and His Name is YHWH and worship no others He is a jealous God", is present what is an absolute.

What you are presenting is an inductive approach where you take 'particulars' of certain words and attributes and try to reverse engineer the Nature of God and then present this as the correct understanding. Based on this reverse engineering, or inductive approach you have given divine attributes to entities that are not God, and reduced clear absolutes of the Nature of God clearly declared in the Bible (eg. Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 6).

Start with the absolutes first and then work on understanding the particulars. The absolutes are very clear in the Bible.

You are correct in what you say, only God can be God, meaning that no one can be the Father. As the Father alone is infinite. No one can become infinite. Do you know what infinite means? It means knowledge without number. It means like having a hard disk with unlimited storage. It means knowing every granular detail of everything, such as how many hairs everyone has on their heads. How many atoms compose the bodies of all the billions of bodies on the earth. How many specs of dust exist on the earth. This is knowledge only the Father has. No other being has this ability, not even Iesou. Also, the Father alone predetermines all things. Me typing this message just now was predetermined by God from the very beginning. No other being has this ability to predetermine all things down to every little granular level of creation, only the Father. This why Iesou Christ is an image of God, because although only the Father has this absolute power as I just described, Iesou Christ as a being with limitations as we also have limitations, can still reflect this being of unlimited power and infinite knowledge. And even Iesou Christ, still being made God and Lord over creation, is still tiny in comparison to the Father, and we are nothing but tiny little atoms in comparison to either or. This is how there could be "little gods", yet there still be the one true God, because even no matter how much authority any being other than the Father can be granted, all are still but tiny specs in comparison to the Father.
 
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nomadictheist

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This is simple to dispute. The Greek word for panta means "all", just "all", so the text should read,



You can even see another usage of the word here http://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/28-19.htm . If a translator adds "things" to "all", he does so at his own interpretation, not because "things" is part of the original text.

You interpret "all" to mean "all things", as most do, I interpret "all" to mean "all beings". My claim reconciles with the Genesis account better than the "all things" claim because the earth and water already existed before Iesou began speaking certain things into existence, which started with "let there be light!", so already is the claim that "all things" were made by Iesou not true, however, all life was indeed created by Iesou, so when John 1:3 says "all", it means all living beings, all life, all who are alive, not "all things", as some things already existed before Iesou began creating. You can't refute that what I'm saying is logical.
This is not evidence at all. This is your claim. The interlinear version which you use shows the modifier:

panta te ethne

Because panta is modified by the phrase te ethne - "the nations" - it is translated "all the nations." That's what it says.

Panta, when it is not placed with a modifier specifying what it means, means literally "all things."

The root of panta - pas - means "all." Panta is a plural form, which, when unmodified, means "all things."

A word study might help with understanding this:
http://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm

See especially:
Plural, πάντα (without the article (cf. Winers Grammar, 116 (110);Matthiae, § 438)) all things
and:
γ. πάντα, in an absolute sense, all things that exist, all created things: John 1:3; 1 Corinthians 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:27; Hebrews 2:8 (and LTTrWH in ); Ephesians 1:22;Colossians 1:17; 1 Peter 4:7; Revelation 21:5
 
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cgaviria

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This is not evidence at all. This is your claim. The interlinear version which you use shows the modifier:

panta te ethne

Because panta is modified by the phrase te ethne - "the nations" - it is translated "all the nations." That's what it says.

Panta, when it is not placed with a modifier specifying what it means, means literally "all things."

The root of panta - pas - means "all." Panta is a plural form, which, when unmodified, means "all things."

A word study might help with understanding this:
http://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm

See especially:
Plural, πάντα (without the article (cf. Winers Grammar, 116 (110);Matthiae, § 438)) all things
and:
γ. πάντα, in an absolute sense, all things that exist, all created things: John 1:3; 1 Corinthians 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:27; Hebrews 2:8 (and LTTrWH in ); Ephesians 1:22;Colossians 1:17; 1 Peter 4:7; Revelation 21:5

We won't go further into other verses if you can't agree with this one. Its pretty obvious I am right about this and how what I am saying harmonizes with the Genesis account. And even the Apostolic Bible Polyglot, a respectable translation has the correct rendering of "all through him existed...". I am fully convinced I am right about this. If you can't accept this, then so be it.
 
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redleghunter

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You are correct in what you say, only God can be God, meaning that no one can be the Father. As the Father alone is infinite. No one can become infinite. Do you know what infinite means? It means knowledge without number. It means like having a hard disk with unlimited storage. It means knowing every granular detail of everything, such as how many hairs everyone has on their heads. How many atoms compose the bodies of all the billions of bodies on the earth. How many specs of dust exist on the earth. This is knowledge only the Father has. No other being has this ability, not even Iesou. Also, the Father alone predetermines all things. Me typing this message just now was predetermined by God from the very beginning. No other being has this ability to predetermine all things down to every little granular level of creation, only the Father. This why Iesou Christ is an image of God, because although only the Father has this absolute power as I just described, Iesou Christ as a being with limitations as we also have limitations, can still reflect this being of unlimited power and infinite knowledge. And even Iesou Christ, still being made God and Lord over creation, is still tiny in comparison to the Father, and we are nothing but tiny little atoms in comparison to either or. This is how there could be "little gods", yet there still be the one true God, because even no matter how much authority any being other than the Father can be granted, all are still but tiny specs in comparison to the Father.

Please show me "The Father" in the OT.
 
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nomadictheist

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We won't go further into other verses if you can't agree with this one. Its pretty obvious I am right about this and how what I am saying harmonizes with the Genesis account. And even the Apostolic Bible Polyglot, a respectable translation has the correct rendering of "all through him existed...". I am fully convinced I am right about this. If you can't accept this, then so be it.
Very well. You have shown that you will not accept a face value reading of John 1:3. I agree, there is no point in moving on to any further scriptures.

I showed you in the same online Greek text analysis that you use what the word "panta" means when it is presented without a modifier. There are other lexicons and concordances that could be quoted from, but you have demonstrated that you won't accept the actual meaning of the word that is used, and insist on replacing it with your own meaning. This is modifying what is written. Since we could not proceed to accept even one verse at face value, I certainly wouldn't expect that any other verse will be accepted as written.
 
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redleghunter

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This is not evidence at all. This is your claim. The interlinear version which you use shows the modifier:

panta te ethne

Because panta is modified by the phrase te ethne - "the nations" - it is translated "all the nations." That's what it says.

Panta, when it is not placed with a modifier specifying what it means, means literally "all things."

The root of panta - pas - means "all." Panta is a plural form, which, when unmodified, means "all things."

A word study might help with understanding this:
http://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm

See especially:
Plural, πάντα (without the article (cf. Winers Grammar, 116 (110);Matthiae, § 438)) all things
and:
γ. πάντα, in an absolute sense, all things that exist, all created things: John 1:3; 1 Corinthians 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:27; Hebrews 2:8 (and LTTrWH in ); Ephesians 1:22;Colossians 1:17; 1 Peter 4:7; Revelation 21:5


The most literal English translation other than the YLT is the Lexham English Bible. This is how they translated John 1:

John 1: Lexham English Bible (LEB)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.

John 1: Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

2 this one was in the beginning with God;

3 all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.
 
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redleghunter

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We won't go further into other verses if you can't agree with this one. Its pretty obvious I am right about this and how what I am saying harmonizes with the Genesis account. And even the Apostolic Bible Polyglot, a respectable translation has the correct rendering of "all through him existed...". I am fully convinced I am right about this. If you can't accept this, then so be it.

Paul was convinced otherwise and renders what @nomadictheist presents:

Colossians 1:

16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all hold together.
 
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